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  1. #161
    Well I think Anet can pull this off, and if tomorrow gives out the waves of ecstasy from the press like I'm hoping it will, then all the companies that have sub based models will shit their pants. The video made amazing points and Anet themselves have spouted off the same thing in an interview at one of the conventions, of how the community at large thinks that running servers is very expensive. I have to admit i was part of that group because when MMOs first started coming out, the servers were costly. And so the propaganda was just spread around among ourselves and we just perpetuated it for years.

    I've done everything i can in WoW, i have way too many alts, but my "main ones" are all 85, every class, with some having a gear level of 370-390. I do pve and pvp with all of them. I've experienced content from all different spectrums in the game but the design has been declining since the end of TBC. The problem, as people have stated already, is just that you're having to rely on 20 or so other people to do their job and maintain focus for this encounter. I'll be honest, there have been nights on progression content that i've lost focus because after wiping after the tank forgets to position right, you just lose interest and its downhill for the raid from there. Its a domino effect.

    Ultimately, my favorite times in PvE have been instancing in vanilla/TBC where your group of 5 had to work together to clear the place. Not the massive 40man raids or 25mans, that felt too congested. The main challenge factor for these type of designs (WoW/Rift) was the fact you had to get so many people to all be on the same page and have the same level of focus for this completely scripted event.

    Thats the diffirence between a scripted event and giving a mob traiths, skills and a certain behavior and just letting it do what it does best. Sadly, that last wouldnt work to great in a game like WoW, to many people.
    One of my all time favorite fights was the PvP fight in TOC for WoW. It called for control, kiting, burst, interrupts, etc from everyone and provided a very dynamic fight. Being a beast in trapping and kiting on my hunter, completely locking down a healer/caster on my rogue, or fearing, dotting, banishing pets on my lock were all awesome and that was only some of my experience with that fight. And when you do such an awesome job on that fight and people take notice, thats a great feeling. Now its more of people looking at the DPS meters and determining that the top 5 are amazingly good at the game. Even now in the pathetic excuse that Dragon Soul is, its just looking at meters and making sure you top them to get what little enjoyment you can out of the same raid you've been raiding for the last few weeks. Theres plenty wrong with these types of games and I sincerely hope that GW2 comes in and shakes up this industry. Because as the video stated, we the gamers are letting this happen.

  2. #162
    Scarab Lord Roose's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ryph View Post
    Ultimately, my favorite times in PvE have been instancing in vanilla/TBC where your group of 5 had to work together to clear the place. Not the massive 40man raids or 25mans, that felt too congested. The main challenge factor for these type of designs (WoW/Rift) was the fact you had to get so many people to all be on the same page and have the same level of focus for this completely scripted event.

    One of my all time favorite fights was the PvP fight in TOC for WoW. It called for control, kiting, burst, interrupts, etc from everyone and provided a very dynamic fight. Being a beast in trapping and kiting on my hunter, completely locking down a healer/caster on my rogue, or fearing, dotting, banishing pets on my lock were all awesome and that was only some of my experience with that fight. And when you do such an awesome job on that fight and people take notice, thats a great feeling. Now its more of people looking at the DPS meters and determining that the top 5 are amazingly good at the game. Even now in the pathetic excuse that Dragon Soul is, its just looking at meters and making sure you top them to get what little enjoyment you can out of the same raid you've been raiding for the last few weeks. Theres plenty wrong with these types of games and I sincerely hope that GW2 comes in and shakes up this industry. Because as the video stated, we the gamers are letting this happen.
    I 100% agree. My favorite pve times were BC heroics. I loved those. CC mattered, aggro mattered, positioning mattered, interrupts mattered, basically skill mattered. Then came wrath and that whole system went out the window and in came faceroll play. Pve has never returned to BC glory. They tried somewhat at the start of Cata, but it was too late and the players were already used to faceroll. Tier 1 of Cata was best pve since BC with exception of Ulduar. Pve just doe snot matter anymore to me in that game. It is dead.

    I also like the challenge of the pvp bosses, like the first iteration in Magister's Terrace. That was a brick wall for bad groups because it was a dynamic fight. Another shining example of how pvp makes you a better player. I would love for them to make some more dynamic encounters like those. I want some cool boss AI!

  3. #163
    I 100% agree. My favorite pve times were BC heroics. I loved those. CC mattered, aggro mattered, positioning mattered, interrupts mattered, basically skill mattered. Then came wrath and that whole system went out the window and in came faceroll play. Pve has never returned to BC glory. They tried somewhat at the start of Cata, but it was too late and the players were already used to faceroll. Tier 1 of Cata was best pve since BC with exception of Ulduar. Pve just doe snot matter anymore to me in that game. It is dead.
    So very true. In wrath and beyond, it got transformed into a faceroll through trash game. In Cata, I was excited at first because the heroics required some degree of skill because not everyone was at high gear levels for the content. Then very quickly it became faceroll. One thing that has me excited is that you can scale down for old content. And that is pure win right there. I love PVP mostly but having that for PvE provides a challenge for all content, not what WoW is now for older raids or these normal heroics that you can just faceroll. Taking away the importance of the gear treadmill grind is genius. Put the skill back in the players hands, not the ones who just play 60 hours a week to farm up the gear so it carry them.

  4. #164
    I am Murloc! Mif's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ryph View Post
    In Cata, I was excited at first because the heroics required some degree of skill because not everyone was at high gear levels for the content. Then very quickly it became faceroll.
    Yeah I found an exploit where an old arrow would raise your ilvl several points (I knew about it months before MMOwned etc), so me and my guildies went in there way under it's gear requirement and had a great time doing 3 hours clears in some of the dungeons. But then once we got better blues and a few purples, it was just back to ezmode. Once we got some raid gear, we just ignored the mechanics and facerolled through.

  5. #165
    Stood in the Fire Rife's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Fencers View Post
    I haven't stepped into a Warcraft raid in almost 3 years. It might be 2 1/2-- whenever Ulduar was released that's when I quit. But from what I have seen of my guild's Warcraft chapter, it seems a very small % of Warcraft's population were/are able to clear Heroic raids.

    When I last checked WoW Progress Firelands was the hot [harhar pun!] new raid. I don't know what that Dragon Souls [or whatever it's called] raid is all about. But it doesn't seem like many progress through that content in sub 3 months.

    So I'd say there are more than a few players who have yet to even complete the content Blizzard put out. If one is simply tired of raiding, then that is another matter totally.

    The average Rift guild is unable to complete half of Hammerknell. It took the top progression guilds months to clear HK. In that time span Trion put out two separate instanced raids, master mode and 4 open world raids and a zone 2x as large as the previous largest zone. That does not include the features unrelated to raids & endgame either in that same time span.

    So to touch back on an earlier point; in terms of value per sub cost, I would say there definitely are MMOs out there providing a service of exemplary quality. Monthly.

    Subs ain't dead. Though it's a business model that works for fewer & fewer games these days.
    The hot pun made me chuckle

    I quit wow before firelands came out so take my post with a grain of salt. Also quit Rift after clearing HK which was a week or two before the new huge zone. I'm a hit it > clear it > quit it kind of guy lol. That's mostly because I didn't particularly enjoy PvP in either game though so once the PvE side was clear I got bored. Grinding through monotonous BG after BG to get gear so you can roll those without gear was meh imo. Can't wait for WvWvW and competitive play.

    I do totally agree with your point though, subscription based games do prosper. I'd attribute that mostly to a lack of B2P games on the market of a similar qaulity level though. If given the choice of 2 games of the same calliber and one costs $15 a month and the is free I can't see the sub game doing as well without an ace up their sleeve.

    I believe Rift had that qaulity. Those guys churned out GREAT content like it was nothing. I was amazed at how fast they released qaulity encounters unlike anything else in the game. For the most part this new content wasn't recycled mechanics or ad hoc hack jobs of bosses. They were new and innovative and very well tuned (excluding bugs). They also fixed bugs and released fixes/improvements that the community largely pushed for with little delay. I played that game happy that my sub fee was going to those guys' hard work.

    I know this is wild speculation but I'd guess that the amount of extra sales dollars Anet will garner buy having no sub cost on GW2 would exceed how much they'd get from fewer box sales, but having those sales tied to a sub. It really is a great model.

    For the first time in my MMO life I'll be a part of a community that won't just be the die hards who play only WoW to get their moneys worth. Who blow WoW bugs/changes/etc way out of the water because one game won't be such a huge part of their online life anymore. We'll see the same die hards in the game that only play GW2 but we'll also see the real casuals who are I spose transigent gamers who play whatever takes their fancy that will hopefully temper the larger whole. There will be guys that are happy to play one aspect of GW2 (WvWvW for example) and get their PvE kicks somewhere else. A much more diverse player base will be nice. It might bring some perspective into the community rather than the guys who lose their shit because of one bug or one encounter being too hard and rage in a veign attmept to get it fixed. They might just go play something else for a while and relax. GW2 won't be the only option; the be all and end all of most of the players.

    B2P has many upsides and aside from profits (which might not even be better for P2P) it has no real disadvantages that I can see.

    ---------- Post added 2012-02-20 at 01:45 PM ----------

    Quote Originally Posted by Hellgaunt View Post
    Hammerknell wasn't difficult at all. It just had a steep gear requirement and the retarded mechanic of having to have resistance gear grinding on top of that. A massive time sink... The next thing about Hammerknell was that you needed good play (not flawless, but good) from everyone all the time - with 20 people odds are someone is going to fuck up and wipe the raid.

    This about RIFT (and WoW) pisses me off endlessly:



    I simply don't understand why so many people seems to think because content is more powerful (hits harder, has more HP) that it's more difficult? It isn't. River of Souls is easy, Hammerknell is easy, WoW is easy - it's always ONLY about a PREDETERMINED and VERY PREDICTABLE fight. There are a set abilities that never varies (overly) and predictable damage.

    In fact it's hard because it's easy I think... People read too much into an encounter and in all guilds I've been in, it comes down to some sort of superstition (Onyxa deep breath anyone?) and people who are bored of their role in the raid that fucks up and everyone wipes and looses attention a bit and more wipes happen.

    I'm not out to bash you in particular Rife, and I'm sorry if I came across like that (wasn't my intention). I'm just really fed up with reading posts about how hard WoW and RIFT are. I quit them because they are equally easy when it comes down to it:
    Hammerknell was hard becuase it required more of each individual raider than any other content I've done. Plus your guild was doing it without timers and addons. Your guild was also doing it without the 50 strategy sites and video guides so you'd end up talking to other guilds to get adivce or brainstorm for a while and try something different. You had to watch for emotes and nail your rotation while watching the bosses for particular animations while running around and staying in order with the guys around you. In pure coordination it required more than anything I did in WoW (I've always raided as DPS though). I also think that your raid leader had to pull their weight even more than usual in WoW. Ours ran raids with egg timers and stopwatches to make sure he could call out important things before they happened rather than when they were happening or 1-2 seconds out. This might have been a bigger hurdle for me due to my location and having about 3/4 of the raiders in Australia or New Zealand meant everyone was running with 200-300 ping.

    I will agree though; that once you nailed the mechanics and did everything well, they really are a pushover. Sounds logical, but once you got one mechanic down 100% you'd work on the next. If anyone in the raid missed a step then you wiped. No exceptions. Whether it was a wipe then and there or at 5% when you ran out of time or couldnt down that add fast enough and he one shot the raid.

    I agree with your point on raid attention aswel. We downed most of our progression fights on the last pull of the night because everyone got a kick in the arse and put their game faces on. The previous attempts had usually been wipes becuase one person wasn't paying attention but as a group we were learning bit by bit so by the end of the night we got serious for one last try. It became a bit of a running joke lol.

    GSB and RoS were easy as pie though. Got conquerer in those without even trying mostly. No deaths aswel without trying. Easy place.

    I havn't thought WoW raiding was hard since Vash and Kael though. Regardless of useless hardmodes and the % of people that cleared them or not, they were not hard. Unless you count getting people really intent on clearing them as hard. I think most of the challenge of those places is not the content, it's getting the same people logging on every night consistently so that as a group you could progress and learn. From what I hear, guilds are always gearing up newbies or running with backup raiders or running sub-optimal groups just because of numbers.
    Last edited by Rife; 2012-02-20 at 02:23 AM.

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  6. #166
    Bloodsail Admiral Cuchulainn's Avatar
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    Well, the thread has moved along quite nicely. As I've been reading all of your posts from page 5 to now an interesting statement crossed my mind...
    "If some think that the B2P model won't work for GW2, then damn, Halo Reach, CoD:MW3, and BF3 must be pretty shitty games."
    /sarcasm.

    It's not a question as to weather or not the B2P model will work for GW2. It's more a matter of the statement that the B2P model HAS worked for 90% of games since the 1970's. Just because GW2 is an MMORPG doesn't mean that B2P is a terrible option. It probably costs just as much to keep games like MW3 and BF3 running as it will cost ANet to keep GW2 running. Additionally, weather or not GW2 will be largely successful like BF3 and MW3 is not important/relevant. As it's not related to the cost of continually running the game.

    /thread?
    ...Pweez?
    Last edited by Cuchulainn; 2012-02-20 at 02:51 AM.

  7. #167
    I am Murloc! Mif's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Cuchulainn View Post
    the B2P model HAS worked for 90% of games since the 1970's.
    That's one thing I always chuckle about when people say games will fail because they don't have a monthly fee, because I don't remember paying a monthly fee for Commander Keen, and it never "failed".

  8. #168
    Mechagnome Mkalafut's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Cuchulainn View Post
    Well, the thread has moved along quite nicely. As I've been reading all of your posts from page 5 to now an interesting statement crossed my mind...
    "If some think that the B2P model won't work for GW2, then damn, Halo Reach, CoD:MW3, and BF3 must be pretty shitty games."
    /sarcasm.

    It's not a question as to weather or not the B2P model will work for GW2. It's more a matter of the statement that the B2P model HAS worked for 90% of games since the 1970's. Just because GW2 is an MMORPG doesn't mean that B2P is a terrible option. It probably costs just as much to keep games like MW3 and BF3 running as it will cost ANet to keep GW2 running. Additionally, weather or not GW2 will be largely successful like BF3 and MW3 is not important/relevant. As it's not related to the cost of continually running the game.

    /thread?
    ...Pweez?
    I agree. I think this thread has definitely run its course. Guild Wars 1 still has a very active crowd today and it's buy to play. Plenty of other games both PC and Console thrive today on the same model. People who didn't play GW1 or any other B2P games are probably just deer in headlights about the idea, but it does work.

    ---------- Post added 2012-02-20 at 03:06 AM ----------

    Quote Originally Posted by Mif View Post
    That's one thing I always chuckle about when people say games will fail because they don't have a monthly fee, because I don't remember paying a monthly fee for Commander Keen, and it never "failed".
    Yep, I also remember not having a monthly fee on my Ocarina of Time, Super Mario Bros, Minecraft, Counter-Strike.... you get the idea. And correct me if I'm wrong but aren't Mario and Luigi famous these days? :P Hardly a fail to me.

  9. #169
    Quote Originally Posted by Mif View Post
    That's one thing I always chuckle about when people say games will fail because they don't have a monthly fee, because I don't remember paying a monthly fee for Commander Keen, and it never "failed".
    Im pretty sure its obvious they mean games that require continuous support from the developer/publisher in the forms of content updates and servers.
    Ofcourse that still stretches beyond MMOs, i think most FPS games can be included in that aswell. And that genre has been doing good for quite some time now.

    In MMOs its just an illusion people have and perhaps cling to a little to tightly. But it ultimately boils down to this; They do not need the monthly fee to be succesfull and neither are they producing content relative to the money you spend on the game. It is merely an extra income for them that they charge simply because so many people still pay it. Or heck, even demand they pay it!

    "What, is GW2 B2P? Oh no! I DEMAND you take 15$ from me every month!"

  10. #170
    The Lightbringer Kouki's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by terrahero View Post
    Im pretty sure its obvious they mean games that require continuous support from the developer/publisher in the forms of content updates and servers.
    Ofcourse that still stretches beyond MMOs, i think most FPS games can be included in that aswell. And that genre has been doing good for quite some time now.

    In MMOs its just an illusion people have and perhaps cling to a little to tightly. But it ultimately boils down to this; They do not need the monthly fee to be succesfull and neither are they producing content relative to the money you spend on the game. It is merely an extra income for them that they charge simply because so many people still pay it. Or heck, even demand they pay it!

    "What, is GW2 B2P? Oh no! I DEMAND you take 15$ from me every month!"
    I know i would pay for it, my last post was rushed.

    Keeping the lights on OP? really?
    The entire list of games from ncsoft barely cost them anything to maintain computers and server tech have just come a long way.
    The maintenance and upkeep fees and downtimes do not need to cost as much anymore or be as long.

    The first game sold over 6mill boxes, expansions included some say that means less players.
    But the development of the expansions came from the sales of the previos expansion and origional release, then the development of guildwars 2 came from revenue from the first game.

    Guildwars 2 will last a long long time, and be cheap to buy all the while there will be cosmetic items in the shop.

    The game will have the most ballanced as posible for an mmo pvp and pve, they designed the game from the start to be ballanced and in the first game had to deal with alot more then wow ever did for ballance issues.

    There were dual classes, you could be a mage and warrior use heavy armor and cast spells there were only 8 buttons but you picked each skill from a giant list of skills, and with all that the game still had a giant pvp fanbase especially in europe you know where games like dota are huge. they dont just play the sheeple game.

    Guildwars 2 and Tera are the new wave of mmo gameplay, all the wow clones will lose to wow and then the new games will vie for the newbies to mmos.
    Wow wont ever die but why play a clone?

    And guildwars 2 is not a clone in any slight.
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  11. #171
    Mechagnome Mkalafut's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Kouki View Post
    I know i would pay for it, my last post was rushed.

    Keeping the lights on OP? really?
    The entire list of games from ncsoft barely cost them anything to maintain computers and server tech have just come a long way.
    The maintenance and upkeep fees and downtimes do not need to cost as much anymore or be as long.

    The first game sold over 6mill boxes, expansions included some say that means less players.
    But the development of the expansions came from the sales of the previos expansion and origional release, then the development of guildwars 2 came from revenue from the first game.

    Guildwars 2 will last a long long time, and be cheap to buy all the while there will be cosmetic items in the shop.

    The game will have the most ballanced as posible for an mmo pvp and pve, they designed the game from the start to be ballanced and in the first game had to deal with alot more then wow ever did for ballance issues.

    There were dual classes, you could be a mage and warrior use heavy armor and cast spells there were only 8 buttons but you picked each skill from a giant list of skills, and with all that the game still had a giant pvp fanbase especially in europe you know where games like dota are huge. they dont just play the sheeple game.

    Guildwars 2 and Tera are the new wave of mmo gameplay, all the wow clones will lose to wow and then the new games will vie for the newbies to mmos.
    Wow wont ever die but why play a clone?

    And guildwars 2 is not a clone in any slight.
    I like you. Even though you like My Little Pony. <3
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  12. #172
    The Lightbringer Kouki's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mkalafut View Post
    I like you. Even though you like My Little Pony. <3
    Your post was perfect. And if I could I would make it my signature.
    Yay a new friend<3, Join the herd We have Muffins.
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  13. #173
    Mechagnome Mkalafut's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Kouki View Post
    Yay a new friend<3, Join the herd We have Muffins.
    You may use any bit for a sig.
    Well my girlfriend does love horses.... lol xD OFF TOPIC! OFF TOPIC!

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