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  1. #41
    Quote Originally Posted by Bearshield View Post
    Speaking as a Christian myself I think the easiest solution would be to simply have a moment of silence. Then everyone can use that time to respectfully do what they please without offending anyone else.
    ye maybe that would work but you have to admit it does favour one side more than the other in alot of cases.
    At the end of the day just about everything you do nowadays offends someone somehow. Pretty sad tbh.

  2. #42
    If an individual wants to pray to himself for wisdom guidance what have you and its not affecting his ability to pay attention to whats going on and do his job i'm ok with that. This however taking a five minute prayer session is simply cutting into the work day. Try that at any other job. If your belief states that you must pray for 5 minutes before you start your work day wake up 5 minutes earlier?

  3. #43
    Quote Originally Posted by Skavau View Post
    So does that mean that because Muslims are a majority in Saudi Arabia you're in favour of the ban on Christian and Jewish prostelyzation and their permanent status as second-class citizens? Does that also mean that because apostates of Islam and homosexuals are in a minority in Saudi Arabia that you're in favour of the Saudi Arabian government executing them?

    Would it be a "greater evil" for Saudi Arabia to rescind its laws on homosexuality and leaving Islam?
    i don't support murder, since Murder is beyond any religion and more of a social rule. By evil i did not actual evil but more wrong. Both are wrong but one is greater wrong.
    Again, this is not about middle eastern nations. Britain does not have any laws separating church and state. If people want to protect the right of minority, then they should work through legislature to make a law that does that. Otherwise, that protection does not exist.

    ---------- Post added 2012-02-17 at 09:59 PM ----------

    Quote Originally Posted by Vizardlorde View Post
    happens in most totalitarian countries, i had to know the national anthem when i was 5 and a bunch of other brainwashing hymns by the time i was in 4th grade, im glad the us only requires the pledge of allegiance cuz i really hated standing up for like 15 mins singing crap and honoring the flag
    you simply replaced one master for another. its commercialism.

  4. #44
    Epic! Skavau's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by artemishunter1 View Post
    i don't support murder, since Murder is beyond any religion and more of a social rule. By evil i did not actual evil but more wrong. Both are wrong but one is greater wrong.
    In Saudi Arabia, a country that is 99% Muslim the state can and will execute any known homosexuals and apostates. This has a majority mandate in a majority Muslim nation.

    Is it appropriate? Is it a "greater wrong" for Saudi Arabia to liberalise?

    Again, this is not about middle eastern nations. Britain does not have any laws separating church and state. If people want to protect the right of minority, then they should work through legislature to make a law that does that. Otherwise, that protection does not exist.
    This is about Britain, but your remarks are concerning nonetheless. You have made it a standard that the majority has the right to demand any law they like.

    I'm asking you how far you go on that.

  5. #45
    Quote Originally Posted by artemishunter1 View Post
    Since, UK does not have any law that separates church and state, it comes to majority since its a democracy. If atheist or non religious councilors are minority, they can leave during the prayer meeting. and thats that. The right of minority should not take away the rights of majority.

    Actually the law that separates church and state has been twisted. It was originally intended so that the government couldn't dictate where you were allowed to pray. You were supposed to be able to pray in school or any government building or anywhere you want (freedom of religion). It has since been twisted so you can't pray in any government building including schools which is unconstitutional.

  6. #46
    Quote Originally Posted by Skavau View Post
    You know that such is true in every state in Europe? I have not read every EU nation's constitution, I must admit.
    Slightly off topic since the OP is about the UK, but from the French Constitution :

    Article 1 : France shall be an indivisible, secular, democratic and social Republic. It shall ensure the equality of all citizens before the law, without distinction of origin, race or religion. It shall respect all beliefs.

  7. #47
    Epic! Skavau's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Vulmio View Post
    Slightly off topic since the OP is about the UK, but from the French Constitution :

    Article 1 : France shall be an indivisible, secular, democratic and social Republic. It shall ensure the equality of all citizens before the law, without distinction of origin, race or religion. It shall respect all beliefs.
    On hindsight, I knew that without looking.

    France is famous for its rigid secularism.

  8. #48
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    umm.. isn't the Queen of England also the head of the church?
    the most beautiful post I have ever read.. thank you Dr-1337 http://www.mmo-champion.com/threads/...1#post22624432

  9. #49
    Pit Lord alms1407's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by ishootblanks View Post
    umm.. isn't the Queen of England also the head of the church?
    Yes she is but she is nothing more than a figurehead and doesn't really have any say over the government.

    ~Signature made by Resentful~

  10. #50
    Epic! Skavau's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by ishootblanks View Post
    umm.. isn't the Queen of England also the head of the church?
    Yes, though a broadly ceremonial role.

  11. #51
    Quote Originally Posted by daftone View Post
    Actually the law that separates church and state has been twisted. It was originally intended so that the government couldn't dictate where you were allowed to pray. You were supposed to be able to pray in school or any government building or anywhere you want (freedom of religion). It has since been twisted so you can't pray in any government building including schools which is unconstitutional.
    Ofcourse, its been twisted. If some one necroed, U.S. founding fathers, they gonna blow a gaskit when they see what we made of the constitution. But there is little chance we would follow correct meaning of that law, not until our gov't collapses, and people are in each other's throats and desperately need something to unite themselves. In peaceful times, when things are under people's control faith is rather unnecessary. Its more useful in times of trouble, when things are beyond our control.

    ---------- Post added 2012-02-17 at 10:27 PM ----------

    Quote Originally Posted by alms1407 View Post
    Yes she is but she is nothing more than a figurehead and doesn't really have any say over the government.
    yeh, but if gov't falls or when elections can't be taken in a crisis, she is undisputed leader of the country and the people.

  12. #52
    You do realise that England has a state religion right?

    The Church of England/Anglican and all. There is no separation of church and state like there is in several other secularised countries.

  13. #53
    Titan apepi's Avatar
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    I would just show up 5 minutes later after it was done. People can do that on their own time, when you gather a group of people you are wasting everyone's time. So just get it over with and get done, don't add what you don't need.
    Time...line? Time isn't made out of lines. It is made out of circles. That is why clocks are round. ~ Caboose

  14. #54
    Quote Originally Posted by Skavau View Post
    In Saudi Arabia, a country that is 99% Muslim the state can and will execute any known homosexuals and apostates. This has a majority mandate in a majority Muslim nation.

    Is it appropriate? Is it a "greater wrong" for Saudi Arabia to liberalise?


    This is about Britain, but your remarks are concerning nonetheless. You have made it a standard that the majority has the right to demand any law they like.

    I'm asking you how far you go on that.
    very very very far till its starts to infringe upon rights of being human i.e. not unjustly killed. some rights are quite trivial and not worth guareenting.

  15. #55
    Epic! Skavau's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Apellosine View Post
    You do realise that England has a state religion right?

    The Church of England/Anglican and all. There is no separation of church and state like there is in several other secularised countries.
    Right. That should change.

    Hopefully in my lifetime, it will.

  16. #56
    Pit Lord alms1407's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by artemishunter1 View Post
    yeh, but if gov't falls or when elections can't be taken in a crisis, she is undisputed leader of the country and the people.
    Well yes but by the time such a thing happens she would most probably be dead and prince William or later generations would succeed the throne who are probably less aligned with a particular religion than her majesty.

    However lets assume the government breaks down tomorrow you honestly think if people can't accept our political leaders they will accept the authority of her majesty? In my opinion that doesn't sound very plausible, I think there would be civil unrest until a new government is formed.

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  17. #57
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    Quote Originally Posted by artemishunter1 View Post
    very very very far till its starts to infringe upon rights of being human i.e. not unjustly killed. some rights are quite trivial and not worth guareenting.
    So does that mean you disagree with Saudi Arabia executing apostates and homosexuals?

    It is also worth pointing out that this power being activated by the government for councils to have prayer meetings here in the UK is being activated without any kind of knowledge on popular consensus on the matter and also contrary to a ruling by the High Court. If you believe many statistics also, Christianity amongst citizens here is a minority.

  18. #58
    I don't see why not. they're allowed to hold these meetings, not obliged to if they don't want to.

    if atheists attend, they can either respect the religious among them or go and whine to their higher ups.

  19. #59
    if i were in a council that would hold prayer at the beginning of every meeting, i would yell satanistic verses every time, saying that it's a prayer of my religion and there would be nothing they could do about it..
    Spoiler alert : You die!

  20. #60
    The Lightbringer Istaril's Avatar
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    Religion should be kept separate from politics on principle. I know it's hardly a major problem; but it's wasting a few minutes of the council's time every time they convene. I'm sure your house can accommodate your morning prayers or whatever.

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