UK Councils now allowed to hold prayer meetings

[Deleted]

Hey, this kind of nonsense is what it must be like daily in some American states.

Link

The government is activating a power it says will allow councils in England to hold prayers at meetings.

Communities secretary Eric Pickles says he is "effectively reversing" the High Court's "illiberal ruling" that a Devon council's prayers were unlawful.

He says part of the Localism Act that aims to give councils greater powers and freedom will be brought in early.

So, since a large part of his justification is apparently the "freedom to worship over intolerant secularism" - I have to wonder if atheist or non-religious councilors came into consideration when he decided to stamp on their freedom of belief?

[Deleted]

this whole thing was caused by 1 man complaining in Bideford, a tiny town in north devon. kinda funny, nothing ever happens here, and weve been on the news this week

[Senbo]

im curious unless they actually start passing laws based on religious ideals (which they wont), why does it matter? most people i know dont care since its not like it affects them.... i mean honestly unless they force people to pray i dont see the harm.

[Prancing Minstrel]

They're already passing a law soon that gives councils more control over what they do in meetings that will let them get away with it, shame really.

[Deleted]

im curious unless they actually start passing laws based on religious ideals (which they wont), why does it matter? most people i know dont care since its not like affects them.... i mean honestly unless they force people to pray i dont see the harm.

as far as i know from whats been on the news, a local council here held prayers at the start of their meetings, people weren't forced to pray, but it was part of the meeting. and an athiest man complained and got them banned, and now they're allowed again. i havnt really followed this properly though.

[ambigiouslynamed]

im curious unless they actually start passing laws based on religious ideals (which they wont), why does it matter? most people i know dont care since its not like it affects them.... i mean honestly unless they force people to pray i dont see the harm.

lots of forced salutes and sing songs last i checked in school so...

[Deleted]

lots of forced salutes and sing songs last i checked in school so...

forced to salute and sing songs? not in my school :\

[Olianda]

Hey, let's not take potshots at America, mmkay?

OT: I don't understand, what's wrong with praying at a meeting?

[Deleted]

im curious unless they actually start passing laws based on religious ideals (which they wont), why does it matter? most people i know dont care since its not like it affects them.... i mean honestly unless they force people to pray i dont see the harm.

It might be frivolous, but I don't see any wording here that prevents it effecting non-Christian council members. It basically means that the council de facto endorses a specific religion even if only for historical or morale reasons and it does so at the expense and the "marginalisation" of all non-Christian members.

It is the same thing as say collective prayers in school. It might come across as harmless moral contempltation but it is in fact a sinister endorsement by the state of a specific religion.

---------- Post added 2012-02-18 at 02:23 AM ----------

Hey, let's not take potshots at America, mmkay?

OT: I don't understand, what's wrong with praying at a meeting?

Uh, nothing if it is your decision and you don't compel everyone else in the meeting to do it as well.

[Deleted]

Hey, let's not take potshots at America, mmkay?

OT: I don't understand, what's wrong with praying at a meeting?

an athiest man got offended by them, people were not forced to pray it was just done for a few mins at the start of meetings.

[artemishunter1]

Hey, this kind of nonsense is what it must be like daily in some American states.

Link



So, since a large part of his justification is apparently the "freedom to worship over intolerant secularism" - I have to wonder if atheist or non-religious councilors came into consideration when he decided to stamp on their freedom of belief?

Since, UK does not have any law that separates church and state, it comes to majority since its a democracy. If atheist or non religious councilors are minority, they can leave during the prayer meeting. and thats that. The right of minority should not take away the rights of majority.

[Senbo]

It might be frivolous, but I don't see any wording here that prevents it effecting non-Christian council members. It basically means that the council de facto endorses a specific religion even if only for historical or morale reasons and it does so at the expense and the "marginalisation" of all non-Christian members.

It is the same thing as say collective prayers in school. It might come across as harmless moral contempltation but it is in fact a sinister endorsement by the state of a specific religion.

actually endorsing would entail backing the religion. all they are doing is allowing those who wish to pray to do so, it also doesnt specify to a single religion prayer is something that is used in many religions.....

[nixcookies]

an athiest man got offended by them, people were not forced to pray it was just done for a few mins at the start of meetings.

I wouldn't say he was offended, I would have thought that his opinion that prayer meetings shouldn't be part of a governmental body's official agenda especially given we live in a secular society.

[Deleted]

I'm sorry. You're complaining about the freedom of belief of athiests is impinged by religious believers being allowed to pray during council sessions. As a Christian myself, when I have to make big decisions, prayer is a big part of my decision making process, I cant make a decision without first praying about it. So realistically, we cant have a council with Religious believers on it if they cant pray.

Nowhere does it say that there must be prayer in a council meeting, nor does it say that an Atheist or someone who doesn't wish to be involved has to sit and listen to it, let alone be involved.

[Bongomadness]

I thought Athiest's are not aloud to complain, but have to put up with religion being rammed in there face and told there is a god.... im surprised he got what he wanted for so long. Anyhow im just as much surprised eric pickles did anything about it between ham sandwhiches lol

[Deleted]

I wouldn't say he was offended, I would have thought that his opinion that prayer meetings shouldn't be part of a governmental body's official agenda especially given we live in a secular society.

oh, on the local news here they said something about somebody finding it offensive, i havn't really followed this though, been all over the news here for about 2weeks now, getting bored of the story :P

[nixcookies]

I'm sorry. You're complaining about the freedom of belief of athiests is impinged by religious believers being allowed to pray during council sessions. As a Christian myself, when I have to make big decisions, prayer is a big part of my decision making process, I cant make a decision without first praying about it. So realistically, we cant have a council with Religious believers on it if they cant pray.

Nowhere does it say that there must be prayer in a council meeting, nor does it say that an Atheist or someone who doesn't wish to be involved has to sit and listen to it, let alone be involved.

It's not the fact that you pray, its the fact that it's apart of the official councils agenda, they can feel free to pray before a session but not during so.

[Maelle]

Possibly a compromise could be reached by having 2 moments of silent prayer OR reflection time at the start of the meeting. Allowing everyone to get their thoughts together quietly, and those who want to to pray silently

[artemishunter1]

It might be frivolous, but I don't see any wording here that prevents it effecting non-Christian council members. It basically means that the council de facto endorses a specific religion even if only for historical or morale reasons and it does so at the expense and the "marginalisation" of all non-Christian members.

It is the same thing as say collective prayers in school. It might come across as harmless moral contempltation but it is in fact a sinister endorsement by the state of a specific religion.

---------- Post added 2012-02-18 at 02:23 AM ----------


Uh, nothing if it is your decision and you don't compel everyone else in the meeting to do it as well.

Not exactly. If the prayer is something like one nation under God, then state not sponsoring any particular religion. If it says one nation under rama, or a specific god then its endoring a religion. Why is marginalization bad? if majority have no problem with it, then minority can leave or not do since its not forcing anyone to pray. Choice is still there. Minority will be margilized in all decisions anyway. Its the nature of being minority. Thats how democracy works. Giving too much rights to minority is a huge problem. Just look at U.S. congress, a small numbers of republicans could filibuster when democrates had super majority. Nothing got done at all.

[Deleted]

It's not the fact that you pray, its the fact that it's apart of the official councils agenda, they can feel free to pray before a session but not during so.

thats what a lot of councils were doing, doing prayers 5mins before the meetings so they are not part of the meeting, i think plymouth and exeter were both doing that.