Why does gear progression exist in PVP?

[Eggers]

The answer is because they want you to keep playing.

I know it's kind of cynical, but think about it from the perspective of the developers. Do you really think their only goal is to provide fun content? They aren't saints or martyrs. They have a bottom line to meet, and in order to keep making money, they have to keep people in the game as often and for as long as possible.

Now there are various ways to reach this goal. One is to keep people engaged through interesting content. The other way is to force farming of gear every season/tier.

[PizzaSHARK]

OP says, 'why does gear exist' and then says, 'Everyone gets the same gear, even if it takes weeks to unlock.'

Same logic works for WoW, ergo no gear issue.

What's left? Nothing.

All games have some sort of progression. MOBAs, modern FPSes, RPGs, hell there's even levels and such in Madden. The differences are purely academic. Almost every multiplayer game on the market (except for one or two notable genres) has a progression. The differences are superficial.

This is more in the abstract, but why do we need a carrot to chase at all? Can't simple stats and achievement milestones be enough? I play SC2 almost religiously and I've never once felt the game would be improved if my Zealots got +3 Shields or my Zerglings got +1 attack damage because I'd played 30 total hours. I play because I enjoy the game, and there ARE some simple, cosmetic achievements to give me little goals to shoot for - seeing my league go from Diamond to Master, seeing that 750 wins or 1000 wins achievement pop up, and then there's more esoteric ones, like using mind controlled units to kill X number of units in a single ladder game.

I played UT2k4 for a long time at a semi-competitive level and I never once thought "man, this game would be so much better if I had to grind 50 levels before I could pick up and use that Flak Cannon."

The way I see it, these stupid fucking carrot-on-a-stick "features" exist only to inflate playtime (OUR GAME HAS 60 HOURS OF CONTENT IN IT!) and to cover up the fact that the game is pretty much fucking garbage when you get past the Skinner Box-esque carrot chasing. A good game will be played heavily regardless of whether or not there is a carrot to chase.

---------- Post added 2012-02-19 at 10:05 PM ----------

It takes a couple weeks to level to 85, a couple days to grind out an honor set (or a day in AV weekend), and a day to 2200+ if your a 2200+ player in a good comp, how is that much different than the modern competitive FPS'ii? In my day in FPS there was no attachments or perks at all (Q3/CS/CSS), but I think I understand competitive bf/mw well enough to see the parallels?

Depends. Are you talking about shitty modern FPSes, or proper old-school shooters like Quake, UT, and old-school Counter-Strike/TFC?

In old-school FPSes the only practical limit was your own skill level, and the skill levels of the people you played with. You didn't grind XP, you grinded knowing how to fucking play.

[Protoman]

The reason PvP gear has to scale with PvE gear is World PvP.

World PVP has been dead for a long time. Low lvl PVP you can still pvp with Pve gear. End game world PVP these days is always in an exclusive zone like WG or tol barad.....so technically you could still enforce the "PVP gear only" there. PVP gear scales with PVE because otherwise people would just use PVE gear in PVP. If you enforced "PVP gear only" in PVP like bg's and arenas, it would be much easier to balance classes since damage and healing would be more predictable and you wouldn't have to readjust every season.

OP says, 'why does gear exist' and then says, 'Everyone gets the same gear, even if it takes weeks to unlock.'

Same logic works for WoW, ergo no gear issue.

What's left? Nothing.

All games have some sort of progression. MOBAs, modern FPSes, RPGs, hell there's even levels and such in Madden. The differences are purely academic. Almost every multiplayer game on the market (except for one or two notable genres) has a progression. The differences are superficial.

I was basically saying the same thing, all competitive online games have some type of progression.....but in the end you get access to everything. If someone consistently beats everyone else, you can just see what guns/attachments they have equipped and copy it. Or in SC2 what units they choose to build and upgrade and try to imitate. Point being you can be equal in gear, but what separates you from them is still skill and familiarity with the class, or weapon, or units ect.

In WoW, everyone can eventually get the lower ilvl pvp gear, but there are still outliers.....you have to have a high rating in rated bg or arena to get the better ilvl gear and weapons, or a good pve guild for better trinkets and pve weapons. These differences are not superficial, they make a huge difference in the actual game. A melee class with an rank 2 weapon or legendary will have a clear and obvious advantage over others......and their win is not based on skill alone, but has alot to do with gear.

There are two things which need to go. Gear progression for one, and its something Blizzard clearly agrees with where people at tournaments and on the tournament realm itself are all on equal footing in terms of gear. And for another, abilities not being different in PvP and PvE. Both these changes would only make the game better.

PvP is about competition, competing against other players to determine who the best is. There's no reason that there need to be stat differences involved - the only thing that should determine who wins is who has the better team.

But the gear grind exists because this is an MMO and MMOs are fucking ack basswards when it comes to gaming innovation.

I agree completely. Should be skill based, not gear based. The Tournament realm is a great example of what I am talking about. Blizz designed that to allow everyone to have the same ilvl gear, and access to everything, so when they compete it is purely based on skill and class comp. That is how it should be ALL the time.

I'd make excuses for MMORPG PVP, but I won't. Just play other PVP games, like the ones listed, and be happy with that.

If you insist on MMORPG-style combat, but want it to be skill-based, then (yes, I know it's a cliche at this point, but) wait for Guild Wars 2. Hopefully that'll do it for you.

I do play rts, moba, and fps games for PVP.....but I also enjoy mmorpg's for their PVP and class roles. I don't want to play another game, I want MMO's to evolve their PVP to meet the same expectations of competitive gameplay that other game modes have.

I have read that GW2 is planning to enforce something similar to what I am suggesting, basically tournament realm style where pvp gear is enforced and everyone can just pick a max lvl character with pvp gear of same ilvl as everyone else. So I might actually try it out, if GW2 ever actually gets released that is.

[Shadzta]

It will always exist in most MMO's it sucks but they won't change it now. Guild Wars 2 has competitive PvP with normalized pvp gear. I'd recommend researching it, you might find it to your liking. =)

[PizzaSHARK]

It will always exist in most MMO's it sucks but they won't change it now. Guild Wars 2 has competitive PvP with normalized pvp gear. I'd recommend researching it, you might find it to your liking. =)

To be honest, I think Blizzard's done a fine job of working things out. Honor grinding can take a few days, but it's not nearly as painful as it once was and if you're really desperate, you can just turn JP into honor and VP into conquest and buy your gear that way.

I disagree with the need to have a gear grind at all, but the current implementation of it isn't really that big a deal in my opinion.

[Protoman]

The way I see it, these stupid fucking carrot-on-a-stick "features" exist only to inflate playtime (OUR GAME HAS 60 HOURS OF CONTENT IN IT!) and to cover up the fact that the game is pretty much fucking garbage when you get past the Skinner Box-esque carrot chasing. A good game will be played heavily regardless of whether or not there is a carrot to chase.

In old-school FPSes the only practical limit was your own skill level, and the skill levels of the people you played with. You didn't grind XP, you grinded knowing how to fucking play.

I agree 100%. Modern FPS like MW3 are absolute garbage......not only do you have to level up to unlock perks, you have to level up your gun to unlock attachments and other crap like that....prestige is the most lame way to make you play more. Compare that to UT you had all guns at your disposal from the start and gameplay was purely based on skill, quickest trigger finger, and knowing how to take advantage of the map. You played to actually gain skill, and experience all outcomes of battle so you could expect the unexpected next time you play. And people still play UT.

It will always exist in most MMO's it sucks but they won't change it now. Guild Wars 2 has competitive PvP with normalized pvp gear. I'd recommend researching it, you might find it to your liking. =)

Yea, like I said earlier I will prob pick up GW2 if it ever comes out.

WoW will never be balanced as long as they keep introducing new gear with higher ilvls, exclude players from the best gear by adding rating requirements, and allow pve gear in pvp. They could achieve "perfect balance", and it would be immediately destroyed once a new season with new gear comes out, or a new legendary, or new on proc trinkets, cause all of a sudden that warrior's damage has become too bursty, or that healer just puts out heals that are way too strong to negate.

Don't get me wrong, WoW PVP works....even with all the unfair advantages out there you can still be competitive.....but the idea of class balance in PVP is a joke as long as you can have such an imbalance in gear from player to player.

[Borzo]

I do play rts, moba, and fps games for PVP.....but I also enjoy mmorpg's for their PVP and class roles. I don't want to play another game, I want MMO's to evolve their PVP to meet the same expectations of competitive gameplay that other game modes have.

I have read that GW2 is planning to enforce something similar to what I am suggesting, basically tournament realm style where pvp gear is enforced and everyone can just pick a max lvl character with pvp gear of same ilvl as everyone else. So I might actually try it out, if GW2 ever actually gets released that is.

I enjoy the MMORPG-style system for PVP. There's a lot of depth to it. When I play TF2, BF3, I get to choose from a handful of weapons and thats it, nothing else... I like how MMORPGs have talents, specs, and stat choices (eg do you go haste or crit?).

Thing is, WOW will never change.

1) They won't have separately balanced skills/classes/talents for PVP vs PVE.
2) It's a sub game, so they don't trust you to keep playing just for fun, they need to "make you work for it" (ie, pay for it through your sub, as you grind out the gear).
3) The culture of WOW is all about "working for gear" and "earning it" (lol, right). PVEer, and no-skill PVPers will whine and complain like no tomorrow if PVP gear was just "given away".

Guild Wars will allow you to make a max-level toon, with max-level gear and talent points, for competitive skill-based PVP. It'll be pretty fair and equalized, so if you want a MMORPG-style combat game -- but one based on skill -- get GW2. Should be out in ... hrmm... probably 3 months, maybe 4. But the problem with GW2 (from the company's perspective) is that all the WOW and SWTOR PVPers probably will NOT play it. Since they can no longer use gear-imbalance as a crutch. If you suck in GW2, you can't just go out and farm gear for 10 days, and then magically "become a better player" and pwn noobs. MMORPGs are full of fail-PVPers, and they won't be attracted to GW2 cause they'll get their asses handed to them. On the bright side (from PVPers perspective), it'll be a purely skill-based game, that rewards skill. You can play for fun, or for titles, or for fancy shit to show off your epeen... whatever (I don't care). I'm just glad there's no gear-based treadmill.

---------- Post added 2012-02-20 at 12:13 AM ----------

Just wanna add my $0.02 on why I think gear sucks and PVP should be skill-based:

(Ignoring class-imbalances for a sec.)

Killing someone who outgears you is great. You KNOW you won because of skill. But LOSING to someone who outgears you is a totally shitty feeling -- 'cause you never know why you lost: Did you lose 'cause they had more skill, or just more gear? Not knowing why you lost is extremely frustrating, and the worst thing in these sorts of games. That's what I hate the most.

On the other hand, if we're equally geared, and I beat them, then I KNOW it's cause I outskilled them. It's always a great feeling to win, and know that you won 'cause of skill. And even if I lose - while that sucks - its still okay. I don't rage at that. I'm fairly good at PVP, and when I get beat by someone in equal gear, I can respect that. Sometimes I play REALLY well, and still get beat... and the other guy totally deserves it.

[Yvaelle]

Depends. Are you talking about shitty modern FPSes, or proper old-school shooters like Quake, UT, and old-school Counter-Strike/TFC?

In old-school FPSes the only practical limit was your own skill level, and the skill levels of the people you played with. You didn't grind XP, you grinded knowing how to fucking play.

Which is what I said, but since he specifically talked about how in FPS you have to grind perks and attachments for a week or two, but then your on a level playing field - which means he's from new FPS which I don't play (competitively), but that sounds to me Exactly like the 2 week wow grind to 390 gear, after which 390 isn't holding you back from 403 if your a good player in a good comp.

And yea, when I FPS'd competitively (Cal-I CS/CSS) there was zero gear grind, but my understanding of the modern FPS's seem more like WoW's pvp grind than any old school FPS.

[Eon Drache]

You do all know that there is absolutely 0 benefit outside of having to regem and enchant the new gear going from the non rated epics to the rated ones outside of the weapons? The armor all has the exact same stats as the non rated counterpart except weapons, which can be upgraded to keep up with PvE heroic weapons on par with dps.

[Tentacleslol]

The answer to all of the issues raised in this thread is..

Guild Wars 2.

Blizzard is too comfortable to do anything progressive enough to make WoW PvP anything better than somewhat fun and somewhat competitive.
While I don't agree with every little decision they've made, the GW2 designers are miles (and miles, and miles) closer to a great competitive PvP game than Blizzard is with WoW. Not because Blizz lacks the ability to do so, but because Blizzard simply doesn't want WoW to be that game. Their main focus is PvE (much to my chagrin).

---------- Post added 2012-02-20 at 12:16 AM ----------

p.s. - I am so with you OP in regards to it being silly to give the better players better rewards.

To exaggerate it a bit for illustration: It's like giving a Navy SEAL a fully automatic and full body armor, then giving a police officer a 9mm with only a chestguard, then facing them off. It just doesn't make sense, no matter how you look at it.

[Yvaelle]

@Tentacleslol

1) Guild Wars 2 will probably blow, just warning you

2) It's more like facing off three SEAL's who communicate with three randomly chosen police officers who don't speak the same languages, and then the police officers justifying their losses because their armor was police blue and not SEAL black, and their standard issue 9mm didn't have hollow point rounds. Both of those things might be true, but when the seals are walking up behind you and taking headshots, it wasn't the rounds or the colour of their outfits that lost you the match. 99% of the people complaining aren't breaking 2200 because of their comp, their teamwork, and their class - but not their gear.

[Nyaldee]

Honestly, pvp gear is already free - it just takes 1 random from trade chat to cap your weekly points. All current pvp gearing system serves is consuming our time, every time fresh 85 wants to pvp he's going through the same routine: honor grind -> conquest grind, it's no different from pve progression. We know that curent pvp gearing system is bad, but pvp gear progression isn't the worst part of it. PvE items are much worse, you can get full cataclysmic set on warlock and get less dmg increase then wining LFR cunning of the cruel.

[Gandrake]

Because ganking used to be a paramount asset of this game

but you should know how blizzard is by now. get paid every month, leaves the game in the same state that an average teenager leaves their room in.

[Stava]

on the other hand, why does gear progression exist in pve? why not make boss mechanics really hard, that instakills everyone who fails and remove gearchecks.
it's because WE LIKE THEM SHINY EPICS!

[Fiana]

There is no doubt that rated arenas/battlegrounds should be gear-independent.
Maybe its against mmo conceptions, but we already have big amount of restrictions that we have on arenas and battlegrounds, so removing gear will not change too much.

Most pvp players don't care about gear. They fight, they get rating, they don't like pve players that come to arena with legendary weapons, and removing gear from rated games will be fine for most of them.

As of me, I want the gear to be removed from both rated pvp and progression pve.

[Phoenexis]

If Blizzard were to give us more flexibility in PvP gear then I would be ok with it. What if I don't want a ton of resilience and would like to get some extra damage? What, fully gem intellect/strength/agility?
As for the trinkets, choosing between getting some health for an amount of time, some extra damage for an amount of time or a random proc that increases stats is quite stale. If we were to have some more dynamic trinkets like Cunning of the Cruel it would be nice.

Also, there should be a carrot on a stick for those who PvP, and I don't think that mere titles will do it.

[Feranor]

Because this is a PvE game.

DAoC didn't have gear progression (with the exception of the ToA expansion, which was a one time thing).

[loki504]

In MMO's, you have to pvp in pve gear till you can buy resil gear, and even then there is a higher tier of gear that can only be bought if you have a high rating.....so the players who are already more skilled then others get access to better gear that the average player can't buy.

what hight rating are you talking about? you mean the t2 weapon? if you lose a match because the other team got t2 weapon and you didn't you would lose anyway.
and rating is easy to get now. so conquest points are not a problem

[Borzo]

on the other hand, why does gear progression exist in pve? why not make boss mechanics really hard, that instakills everyone who fails and remove gearchecks.

Coincidentally, Guild Wars 2 will be this way. PVE gear progression will only be cosmetic. Getting it will be skill-based.

[Deleted]

most online fps these days stil have "unlockable guns" that require x kils/gametime to open and while some are just sidegrades or switching to a same "dps" gun but with a lower rate of fire type effects -> guns will stil have "flavour of the month" attached to them as new custom maps and senarios are implemented and certain guns are situational but o wait you havn't unlocked gun y which is best at this map.

they all stil have some. even if it's a minor cosmetic upgrade or option.