Page 13 of 42 FirstFirst ...
3
11
12
13
14
15
23
... LastLast
  1. #241
    mur·der   [mur-der] Show IPA
    noun
    1.
    Law . the killing of another human being under conditions specifically covered in law. In the U.S., special statutory definitions include murder committed with malice aforethought, characterized by deliberation or premeditation or occurring during the commission of another serious crime, as robbery or arson (first-degree murder), and murder by intent but without deliberation or premeditation (second-degree murder).

    It is the killing of another human being when certain conditions have been met. If it were merely the unlawful killing of another human being than that could open us up to all sorts of legal issues.

    Whether they are biased or not, they do raise and address quite a few excellent points on the matter. I've watched episodes of their show that I disagreed with (like the one about karate and they found the most outlandish and space-cadet tai-chi instructor they could find) but I still was able to look past the hyperbole and sensationalism to the points they raised, which were valid. In this instance especially I would recommend watching this episode.

  2. #242
    Wow. This garbage hit 12 pages quick...

    So, the primary arguments AGAINST capital punishment seem to be:

    1) You cannot be 100% sure of someone's guilt.

    2) What if you execute someone and find out later you were wrong?

    3) Prison sentences can be reversed. Death cannot.

    All three of these are really very similar, but let us put a slight spin on each. I'm not changing the context whatsoever, just flipping the coin (or looking at the Yang):

    1) You cannot be 100% sure of someone's innocence.

    2) What if you choose to free someone who was guilty and they kill someone else?

    3) The innocent person could be killed in prison or could die of old age if NOT reversed. And if it is reversed at some point, was it any less wrong to convict them in the first place?

    I have to ask - what is the problem with death? People are dying everyday by the thousands. Maybe not next door, maybe not in your city, but the world is losing people for countless reasons. African nations and middle-eastern nations are constantly at war. We have to be realistic when we look at the human race and say "We are a war-like species". We are barbaric. We've become more civilized over the centuries, but we will always be barbaric at the core. Murders are commited everyday for exactly this reason.

    Now my opinions of the reasons stated above:

    1) You ABSOLUTELY can be 100% certain of someone's guilt.

    - http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jared_Lee_Loughner

    - http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Anders_Behring_Breivik

    There is no "alleging" in these cases. They did it. Period. And these are just two of the recent ones. There are many others out there. Capital punishment would always (I would say "almost always" personally) be reserved for cases such as these. If there is doubt for the conviction, then putting people to death is certainly risky.

    2) This is trickier, but it just sounds like a cop out to me. This relies more on our justice system being improved to make more accurate calls. The first change that needs to happen is any and all evidence should be required as admissable, regardless of how it is obtained. There have been countless cases of evidence being inadmissable due to the nature in which it was discovered and numerous others where evidence failed to get turned over, etc. This kind of shit needs to stop. Evidence is evidence and is vital to making a proper decision.

    3) Before being exonerated from Death Row, the average time spent there was 9.8 years according to DeathPenaltyInfo. That's quite a bit of leeway before putting a needle in their arm. How much time do you think they should have to enter new evidence? Again, it's a justice system issue, not one for capital punishment. If you have something to say or evidence to speak of, get it out there before the trial is over.

    Also according to that website, over 1000 people have been put to death in the U.S. since 1976. Only a handful of those (less than 20) seem to have had strong evidence of innocence. Granted, we don't have much knowledge on how many of those executed may have actually been innocent, but either way the statement "many, many innocent people have been executed" is just bad form and incorrect.

    -Judge

  3. #243
    The Lightbringer Alceus's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jul 2010
    Location
    Wolf's' Den
    Posts
    3,601
    Quote Originally Posted by Jersovic View Post
    Off-Topic, but I've always suspected that the Holocaust being so close to home likely impacted Europe's decision to largely abolish the practice of Capital Punishment.
    They didn't change it directly after the end of WW2. They first hunted collaborators for years (late 80's/ mid 90's) to prosecute and execute them (like a witch-hunt). They still had a different system to prosecute high crimes besides the collaboration, but an occasional execution of criminals wasn't rare. The holocaust wasn't the reason, humanism was. Various liberalism, socialism, democratic influenced parties wanted a reformed punishment system.


    ON TOPIC:

    I am against capital punishment, (death by) slavery sounds a bit like a harder punishment. Forcing criminals to work to benefit the poor with products the gov'n sells (partly processed by criminals, end product by gov'n facilities) to the poor for very low prices.

    ^ I proposed this idea to the ministry of Justice a while ago. It was also my bachelor case. I got good points but lots of critics from pussies and softies.
    Last edited by Alceus; 2012-02-21 at 07:27 PM.
    Frostwolf clan is best clan!

  4. #244
    Quote Originally Posted by Brubear View Post
    mur·der   [mur-der] Show IPA
    noun
    1.
    Law . the killing of another human being under conditions specifically covered in law. In the U.S., special statutory definitions include murder committed with malice aforethought, characterized by deliberation or premeditation or occurring during the commission of another serious crime, as robbery or arson (first-degree murder), and murder by intent but without deliberation or premeditation (second-degree murder).

    It is the killing of another human being when certain conditions have been met. If it were merely the unlawful killing of another human being than that could open us up to all sorts of legal issues.

    Whether they are biased or not, they do raise and address quite a few excellent points on the matter. I've watched episodes of their show that I disagreed with (like the one about karate and they found the most outlandish and space-cadet tai-chi instructor they could find) but I still was able to look past the hyperbole and sensationalism to the points they raised, which were valid. In this instance especially I would recommend watching this episode.
    Google "murder definition" - your one definition that leaves out "unlawful" is literally surrounded by half a dozen definitions that use "unlawful." You can't cherry pick facts to support your own conclusions. You need to look at the big picture.
    Last edited by Jasyn; 2012-02-21 at 07:28 PM.

  5. #245
    Oh and Brubear, I have seen that episode of P&T:BS. I've seen them all. And I LOVE that show. Some of the greatest pieces of entertainment I've ever seen. I still don't agree with their stance (probably the writers' stance, not P&T's, but still) on that particular issue. I do rather enjoy their stance on PETA though.

    -Judge

  6. #246
    I don't think the death penalty is a deterrent. I don't think it needs to be a deterrent. I think our criminal justice system should deliver justice. Plain and simple.

    Rehabilitation for those who can be. Life sentences for those who can't.

    The prison system in Norway works wonders for them. Good for them.

    I, however, have no desire to coddle criminals.

  7. #247
    Why are defendants with a low budget ($300,000) for defense attorney's twice as likely to be sentenced to death when compared to those with more money ($620,000)?

    BTW trial costs are the major reason why executions cost so much.

  8. #248
    Quote Originally Posted by Judgejoebrwn View Post
    Wow. This garbage hit 12 pages quick...

    So, the primary arguments AGAINST capital punishment seem to be:

    1) You cannot be 100% sure of someone's guilt.

    2) What if you execute someone and find out later you were wrong?

    3) Prison sentences can be reversed. Death cannot.

    All three of these are really very similar, but let us put a slight spin on each. I'm not changing the context whatsoever, just flipping the coin (or looking at the Yang):

    1) You cannot be 100% sure of someone's innocence.

    2) What if you choose to free someone who was guilty and they kill someone else?

    3) The innocent person could be killed in prison or could die of old age if NOT reversed. And if it is reversed at some point, was it any less wrong to convict them in the first place?

    I have to ask - what is the problem with death? People are dying everyday by the thousands. Maybe not next door, maybe not in your city, but the world is losing people for countless reasons. African nations and middle-eastern nations are constantly at war. We have to be realistic when we look at the human race and say "We are a war-like species". We are barbaric. We've become more civilized over the centuries, but we will always be barbaric at the core. Murders are commited everyday for exactly this reason.

    Now my opinions of the reasons stated above:

    1) You ABSOLUTELY can be 100% certain of someone's guilt.

    - http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jared_Lee_Loughner

    - http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Anders_Behring_Breivik

    There is no "alleging" in these cases. They did it. Period. And these are just two of the recent ones. There are many others out there. Capital punishment would always (I would say "almost always" personally) be reserved for cases such as these. If there is doubt for the conviction, then putting people to death is certainly risky.

    2) This is trickier, but it just sounds like a cop out to me. This relies more on our justice system being improved to make more accurate calls. The first change that needs to happen is any and all evidence should be required as admissable, regardless of how it is obtained. There have been countless cases of evidence being inadmissable due to the nature in which it was discovered and numerous others where evidence failed to get turned over, etc. This kind of shit needs to stop. Evidence is evidence and is vital to making a proper decision.

    3) Before being exonerated from Death Row, the average time spent there was 9.8 years according to DeathPenaltyInfo. That's quite a bit of leeway before putting a needle in their arm. How much time do you think they should have to enter new evidence? Again, it's a justice system issue, not one for capital punishment. If you have something to say or evidence to speak of, get it out there before the trial is over.

    Also according to that website, over 1000 people have been put to death in the U.S. since 1976. Only a handful of those (less than 20) seem to have had strong evidence of innocence. Granted, we don't have much knowledge on how many of those executed may have actually been innocent, but either way the statement "many, many innocent people have been executed" is just bad form and incorrect.

    -Judge
    You cannot be 100% certain 100% of the time - that is the point. A motto of our justice system is that it is better for 10 guilty men to go free than to let one innocent man go to prison. You speak of evidence and that if it exists then it needs to be brought forward before the trial is over. Do you know how many people who have gone to prison because they couldn't afford a good lawyer?

    Bottom line is that if even a single innocent human being has been put to death then that is a FLAWED system and should remove capitol punishment from the table. What if it were your friend, loved one etc who was murdered by the government? Would you feel the same way? I doubt it.
    Quote Originally Posted by Lansworthy
    Deathwing will come and go RAWR RAWR IM A DWAGON
    Quote Originally Posted by DirtyCasual View Post
    There's no point in saying this, even if you slap them upside down and inside out with the truth, the tin foil hat brigade will continue to believe the opposite.

  9. #249
    Quote Originally Posted by eriseis View Post
    I just find it interesting when states such as Texas are so anti-abortion but so pro-death penalty.

    To be fair though you could say the reverse.

    Those states (individuals) that are pro abortion and against the death penalty

    I guess its all about timing

  10. #250
    Quote Originally Posted by Maneo View Post
    To be fair though you could say the reverse.

    Those states (individuals) that are pro abortion and against the death penalty

    I guess its all about timing
    What?

    The argument for pro-choice is that before your born you don't qualify as a human. Criminals are still technically human beings.

  11. #251
    Mechagnome Viperdream's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jun 2010
    Location
    Belgique
    Posts
    611
    It's something good in my opinion.

    However, when someone gets executed that was innocent. Then it's of course wrong.
    But with the current technology we have today, it's quite hard to be wrongly accused.

    And then again. Why would it be more cruel to kill someone than putting him in a cell for the rest of his life?

    But everyone does deserve a second chance. People shouldn't get executed after killing one person (even though I know that just killing one person is already bad enough).

  12. #252
    Mechagnome beneholio's Avatar
    Join Date
    Sep 2009
    Location
    Graz, Austria
    Posts
    698
    Capital Punishment never solved anything and never will solve anything.

    Criminals need help and I think they should get it. It sickens me when I read stuff like "Well... This costs money and these people don't deserve to be helped". Everyone deserves treatment with dignity.

    Capital Punishment IN MY OPINION is murder under government protection.
    Ride your bike, ride your bike, ride your bike - Fausto Coppi

  13. #253
    I support the death penalty.

    Frankly if a person is stupid enough to commit a crime that would warrant the death penalty being an option then I see no reason to protect them from it. We are all born with free will and we should all have to be held accountable for our actions if we are proven sane. Holding people in prison for life without parole ends up costing the state (and as a direct consequence the law abiding citizens) to pay for their meals and other living necessities.

    People would be less likely to make mistakes if they were held accountable for their actions.

  14. #254
    Quote Originally Posted by Jaguera View Post
    Do, you say that killing anyone is unacceptable, regardless of the murderer having killed themselves, maybe even multiple murders? Really...? Really?

    Execution of them -prevents- them from causing even more harm! The victim's family, friends are suffering. They have demoted themselves from 'human being' status, so they don't deserve the courtesy of being let alive after what they did.

    It does -not- mean that it should be flung around like confetti, it should be used for proven, irredeemable offenders. Not that BS 230 years or whatever in prison.
    So does locking them up in solitary confinement. They can't harm anyone else but themselves. Many would argue that is a far worse fate than death.

    Yes, I personally feel that intentionally taking the life of someone is something that we, as a society should avoid if at all possible. If there are steps we can take to prevent loss of life, we should take them.

    I went with the first definition from the first dictionary website that came up on Google (dictionary.com) I did not cherry-pick my definition. But I'll use your definition. Under US Federal law murder is the unlawful killing of a human being with malice aforethought. Therefore, the only reason that capital punishment is not murder within the US is because we said it's legal. That definition fits the bill of murder in any country where capital punishment is not legal. So, it's only murder if someone else does it. If we do it it's okay. Tell that to Cameron Todd Willingham, I'm sure he appreciates the clarification.

    *EDIT* In other words, it's government-sanctioned murder. Is that a more acceptable way to phrase it?

    Here are some more reasons why I am opposed to capital punishment.

    http://www.huffingtonpost.com/barry-..._b_272327.html
    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cameron_Todd_Willingham

    http://lubbockonline.com/stories/062...97196667.shtml
    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tim_Cole

    http://www.cnn.com/2009/CRIME/12/16/...ion/index.html
    Last edited by Brubear; 2012-02-21 at 07:44 PM.

  15. #255
    High Overlord
    Join Date
    Feb 2010
    Location
    Poland
    Posts
    100
    Tax payers paying for the long (even above 40 years) life of serial rapists/killers/child molesters in jail, that's just wrong.

  16. #256
    It's all fun and games until the wrong person is killed.

    What a horrific situation for those involved. An officer comes to your door tomorrow and tells you that you're under arrest. Next thing you know you're being charged with murder and it wasn't even your fault. You're going to be killed. Your wife and kids are besides themselves with anguish and none of you can do anything about it. The day comes, you're histerical but you are killed. Your family are destroyed. Then they find out after they killed the wrong person. Everybody involved will now be involved for the rest of their lives - mentally.

    Best to avoid a situation like that. I think our societies are way too comfortable as they are anyway. You look at the East - Some areas will stone you for holding a woman's hand (Just an example of how far out minded East and West are - and I'm not implying there's a right or wrong.) where as we over here have strict laws that control the way our officers handle people when arresting and such.

    Not only that but people can get crazy too. Like uncontrollable rage, if you kill someone you feel it then sure, but once the rage is gone you'd probably begin to wish it had never happened. Thats why we have laws that state people were not in complete control of themselves and stuff.
    AKA Breadman - Creator of Gm_Ghosthunt 1,2 & 3 for Garrys Mod.

  17. #257
    Stood in the Fire themightysven's Avatar
    Join Date
    Dec 2010
    Location
    Swamp of Despair, Texas
    Posts
    366
    I would much rather have life imprisonment (no parole, in solitary) in these cases instead of the death penalty.
    1. if they're wrong (and I live in Texas where there have pretty clearly been people misexecuted) there's no way to undo the damage.
    2. the standard for conviction is not high enough. (reasonable doubt, shouldn't it be absolute certainty?)
    3. it brings the citizens of the state/country down to the level of the murderers.
    Ewok Sith Lords are all about Agility

  18. #258
    I'll bet 95% of the people in this thread have never suffered a lose that would result in a person even receiving a death penalty. Tell me after a convicted pedophile that was released rapes and murders your 5 yr old little girl how your views change. I was not really in favor of capitol punishment till I lost my daughter now Im completely for it.

  19. #259
    Quote Originally Posted by ugotownd View Post
    I'll bet 95% of the people in this thread have never suffered a lose that would result in a person even receiving a death penalty. Tell me after a convicted pedophile that was released rapes and murders your 5 yr old little girl how your views change. I was not really in favor of capitol punishment till I lost my daughter now Im completely for it.

    Sorry for your loss.

    But how would you feel if a loved one was executed for a crime they didn't commite?

  20. #260
    Quote Originally Posted by ugotownd View Post
    I'll bet 95% of the people in this thread have never suffered a lose that would result in a person even receiving a death penalty. Tell me after a convicted pedophile that was released rapes and murders your 5 yr old little girl how your views change. I was not really in favor of capitol punishment till I lost my daughter now Im completely for it.
    I'll bet that 99.99% of the people in this thread have never lost a person who was wrongfully executed.

    Imagine how you feel, now imagine that your daughter was taken from you in the name of justice. Imagine it was done by the government. How hard would that be? How would you handle that?

    Understand that I am in no way trying to diminish your feelings or say in anyway that what you went through is not something I would wish on even my greatest enemy. It is something that I personally have not experienced and I can't even imagine just how painful it would be.

    However, I can also understand that I can't even imagine how hard it would be to fall on the other side of the coin and have someone I love to be wrongfully executed.

    That is why I will go with life in prison over the death penalty every day. Because you can prevent what you went through with life in prison, you can't prevent what Cameron Todd Willinghams family and friends went through with the death penalty.

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
  •