Thoughts on PvP, Arenas and Warzones

**kalamitis** · 2012-02-21, 08:30 PM

SWTOR's PvP is quite good right now. Open world PvP in Ilum is good, excluding the bugs and exploits that benefited some player, is actually what it was advertised. Big, open war. The truth is, Rated WZ will do wonders for the game and will attract more players. Even better, a small scale PvP that would be ranked would provide a big time sink and also create a good competitive environment that'll push the game to a better experience. I suggest an arena ranked and unranked battleground where people will fight in a deathmatch.

Only one bracket should be made. A 3v3. You can balance the whole game around arenas and most of the times what is balanced in a small scale it will also be balanced in the large scale. 2v2 is too individualistic and very limited. Instead of creating some healthy competitive arena, 2v2 would be actually be a combination vs combination that decreases the skill and creativity required from the player and would lead to a huge flaming and crying forum outbreak where people will demand from the developers to adjust the game to their class' combination. 4v4 even though would be ideal since the whole game was build in the number 4 in mind it would not work in arenas. 2 healers and 2 dps or 1 tanks 2 healers and 1 dps would make really slow and long fight. On the other hand 1 healer and 3 dps would make zerg battles that would be frustrating and unsatisfying. 5v5 and more is just overcrowded, zergy and messy. 3v3 is optimal, the base of the mmo genre and the holy trinity. Tank, dps and healer or 2 dps and a healer would make a fight last enough, won't be crowded and every member of each team can coordinate without problem.

Balance the PvP around 3v3. The problem for the developers is the performance some classes have between PvP and PvE. Instead of nerf and buff every time, just give a bolster to dps in PvP if healers are overpower or on the other hand put a debuff of the healing received. Exactly what the devs did with the Trauma debuff. It's obvious that you can't balance a game around PvP and PvE at the same time with the same damage and healing multipliers for both.

As for the maps, don't make anything more than a basic, normal arena map. Avoid eruptic cannons, flame that rise every 5sec. No RNG elements in general. Let the best team win, with no luck involved. The winner should be decided by his skill, timing and coordination. Also avoid a map with many different leveled platforms. Being knockback to the ground to run up to the platform to be knockback again is not fun. Put some platforms that are easily accessible, some crates or other items that could get in the line of sight and maybe a pit of acid like in Huttball. Please make functional maps that will allow for competitive play.

I have to add here a little something. Make interrupts/knockbacks/standing up instant! Make it happen at the beginning of the animation so it would land as soon as the player wanted. The server lag, the internet lag, the human reaction time are already making it hard to land a interrupt. Having to wait for the animation to end, that means almost a second- makes the things worse. Also, sometimes if I'm knockdown from an Operative in to the pool of acid in Huttball, I find myself dying not because of his attacks, neither for the damage from the acid. He throws me down for 1.5 sec and it gets 0.5-1sec to stand up. Please, make it so I can react instantly to the attacks of my opponent and not be restricted because of animation. A lot of people are raging about giving Imperials a lead. For example, It seams that Telekinetic Throw has the object that is threw to hit the target for the damage to be dealt where as the sorcerer's counterpart Force Lightning is instant. Same goes for some Bounty Hunter's abilities in comparison to the Trooper's ones. If it's just an animation thing, it's easy for you to correct it. To be honest, almost all of the abilities should has damage be dealt at the end of the animation. Especially for PvP, gameplay should be an priority over animation, so please, make it so.

My final suggestion for PvP is an introduction of two new type of Warzones. The first should be Team Deathmatch. People really like Ilum because it gives them the chance to play against other players without any other goal than killing or be killed. I believe it can be easily constructed and would be a huge hit from the community. Two teams of 8 people, 100 tickets, each death cost a ticket, first team to reach 0 tickets lose, no PvE element involved. Simply enough. You can add two chokepoints, like a bridge or a cliff and if you believe that would be helpful for more strategically playstyle, add two bases that would provide a 5% bonus to all damage and healing done to the group that controls them. The second one could be a map like League of Legends or DOTA. Two bases, each with an Inner Sanctum to the center, and only two or three different paths that connects them. Every faction has 3 turrets along the paths to their base to protect them. The winner is the team that gets to destroy the Inner Sanctum of the enemies' base. I'm not sure if it can be implanted into SWTOR but would totally make a lot of people happy and willfull to try PvP.

**viciouss** · 2012-02-21, 08:51 PM

To me all arena's do is create balancing issues that do not exsist without it. Plus I enjoy objective based pvp myself over just kill them in the face.

**Scripts** · 2012-02-21, 08:58 PM

Originally Posted by viciouss

To me all arena's do is create balancing issues that do not exsist without it. Plus I enjoy objective based pvp myself over just kill them in the face.

Agreed. Its like they say "We don't balance PvP for 1 on 1. We balance it for the WZ."

I loved AV in WoW before it became the huge zergfest it is now. Please don't suggest they do arenas for PvP. It will kill the fun that a well played Voidstar/Alderaan is. Anyways, if you wanted an arena, you've already got it. Its called "Hutt Ball"

**Dannyl** · 2012-02-21, 09:11 PM

I have to say that I agree with the above, arenas created a lot of problems for the game, most prominently balance issues. I don't think I'd mind if there was a deathmatch type war zone but I think it'd have to be team-based deathmatch because it would definitely put certain classes in advantage if it every-man-for-himself. Healers for example, can't really kill anything but they are difficult to kill on your own. Can't really see them shining in that kind of setting. Stealth classes would have an obvious advantage because they can cloak, jump someone, blow their cooldowns and kill them, and then just cloak again.

Or if things go bad, just vanish and go hide somewhere. A team-based deathmatch would negate those issues and would allow players to organize and team up. Keep in mind, many people queue for war zones together and want to play together.

It is funny you mentioned interrupts and pushbacks because I think this game has way too many of those. Every bloody class is able to stun you twice over, on top of which they can have a pushback, and an interrupt as cream on top. Especially playing a healer is a real god forsaken pain because no matter what you do just one enemy has enough ways to stop you from casting to totally ruin your day. Make it two enemies and you might as well go hang yourself because the chain of stuns, interrupts, and pushbacks are enough to drive you up the wall.

**viciouss** · 2012-02-21, 09:13 PM

a team based score 25 kills or so would be aweomse, throw in a voidstar bridge and huttballesque hazards and I would really enjoy that.

**Lathais** · 2012-02-21, 09:20 PM

I;m going to read the rest of your post, but have not yet. I stopped at Ilum is great, huge battle and working the way it should as in my experience Ilum is dead. The Pubs don't even go there. Sometimes you'll get one guy who is new to 50 and just there to check it out, but he's gone pretty fast. Ilum is broken and needs server merges/cross server or something added along with phase caps set so that there can be fair and balanced fights there. As it is there's 20-40 Imps there all asking if there's an OPs group and people just lol at them cause there are never any Pubs.

**FWDthnk** · 2012-02-21, 09:32 PM

Arenas are cool but it does make balancing issues.

**viciouss** · 2012-02-21, 09:34 PM

I never have problems finding pubs on Illum, can usually get my daily done in under an hour.

**kalamitis** · 2012-02-21, 09:38 PM

Originally Posted by Lathais

I;m going to read the rest of your post, but have not yet. I stopped at Ilum is great, huge battle and working the way it should as in my experience Ilum is dead. The Pubs don't even go there. Sometimes you'll get one guy who is new to 50 and just there to check it out, but he's gone pretty fast. Ilum is broken and needs server merges/cross server or something added along with phase caps set so that there can be fair and balanced fights there. As it is there's 20-40 Imps there all asking if there's an OPs group and people just lol at them cause there are never any Pubs.

That doesn't mean that is broken if your server doesn't have enough republics.

As it is there's 20-40 Imps there all asking if there's an OPs group and people just lol at them cause there are never any Pubs.

There are no pubs, just a Cantina at Ilum. It's getting frustrating to not have a place to drink yer scotch. I sympathise with you sir. (sorry for trolling but I couldn't help myself)

**Qwell** · 2012-02-21, 09:59 PM

IMO, arenas are what exasperated the balancing issues with WoW, as it was clearly augmented with PvP in mind, and not so much end-game raiding. there is nothing wrong with that *IF* you have a separate talent sheet, pool, bar-whatever-to base PvP and PvE around. when they are both married like this (really, this is the best designers have to offer atm?) it creates inherent problems of choice and consequence and forces macro fixes for what should be a micro problem.

arenas in TOR are a great idea--more competetive PvP? why, yes thank you. but i FEAR HEAVILY that it will slowly poison some of the PvE aspects. i just don't think it's possible to balance 2 disparate, VERY different playstlyes and modes FROM THE SAME PERSPECTIVE.

that's like developing a gun that shoots swords.

just silly and ultimately ineffective.

**viciouss** · 2012-02-21, 10:01 PM

But a gun that shoots swords would be beyond awesome, arenas not so much.

**SoCal** · 2012-02-21, 10:25 PM

I'd be fine with a 10 on 10 deathmatch where its pug only

**kalamitis** · 2012-02-21, 10:26 PM

Originally Posted by Qwell

IMO, arenas are what exasperated the balancing issues with WoW, as it was clearly augmented with PvP in mind, and not so much end-game raiding. there is nothing wrong with that *IF* you have a separate talent sheet, pool, bar-whatever-to base PvP and PvE around. when they are both married like this (really, this is the best designers have to offer atm?) it creates inherent problems of choice and consequence and forces macro fixes for what should be a micro problem.

arenas in TOR are a great idea--more competetive PvP? why, yes thank you. but i FEAR HEAVILY that it will slowly poison some of the PvE aspects. i just don't think it's possible to balance 2 disparate, VERY different playstlyes and modes FROM THE SAME PERSPECTIVE.

that's like developing a gun that shoots swords.

just silly and ultimately ineffective.

I highly agree. PvE should not be affected from PvP and vice versa. My point is that arenas won't make things worse, believe me. Operatives/Scoundrels got a nerf because of PvP without arenas being implanted. With the surge nerf, Operatives/Scoundrels got another major hit at their dps as they were heavily depending on their strong crits making them quite weak right now. The class was designed to have great burst and under medium sustained damage. And as for PvE it worked as intended. Their great burst was judged as overpowered in PvP and changed, also affecting their PvE performance.

Arenas are fun in my opinion and should provide the best gear. Let top ranked arenas and top ranked warzones give the same rewards. Implanted Arenas well, with only one bracket won't ruin balance. Trying to balance the game in a smaller, ideal scale and things would actually be better

**viciouss** · 2012-02-21, 11:15 PM

I may be missing something but I do not see a pro in 3 v 3 arena teams.

Your post just seemed the need to exclude people who do not want to do arenas from the best gear which is highly not needed.

**kalamitis** · 2012-02-22, 02:43 AM

Originally Posted by viciouss

I may be missing something but I do not see a pro in 3 v 3 arena teams.

Your post just seemed the need to exclude people who do not want to do arenas from the best gear which is highly not needed.

2v2 is too individualistic and very hard to be balanced. 4v4 would be ideal but fights would be too long or too zergy. 5v5, 6v6 are just too many people to coordinate and be healthy. That's why 3v3 is better. If you have ever played all three brackets in wow, you'll know that 3v3 is ideal. And as far as I know, I didn't write ANYTHING about rewards in my first post. I actually suggested unranked arena battles for people that don't want to be hardcore arena PvPers but still like playing one. If you want to know what I think, rated arenas and rated wzs should give the best pvp gear. Un-rated wzs and arenas should give the second best.

**viciouss** · 2012-02-22, 02:55 AM

I apparently made that part up in my mind and added it to your post >__>

I apologize swear I had read that in the op meant no offense.

**vizzle** · 2012-02-22, 03:51 AM

Haha, Ilum is good. Stopped taking you seriously there. I know you play Imperial.

Edit: Checked your youtube channel, yes you're Imperial. Of course Ilum is good.

People really like Ilum

Hah.

**Thassarian** · 2012-02-22, 04:01 AM

Hated how arena became the "be all and end all" of player skill.

Would most definitely prefer if that bollocks was kept away from SW:ToR to be honest. They have options: Implement an arena-esque style (As long as it's a pure time sink, by all means, Just don't have the PvP gear from there), Focus on 5-8 a side team battles, which for the most part are decent. Not brilliant as certain classes by far are less beneficial than others at doing this *cough* Scoundrel/Op *cough*.

Arena was admitted to be a mistake in WoW, the Devs themselves said the implementation was wrong and it created more issues than it helped solve. Yes, it doesn't have to be the same as WoW's but I highly doubt it'll be too different, should they ever and god forbid they do, as they'll want to compete for WoW's Arena subs as well as stimulating more subs anyway.

**moff** · 2012-02-22, 07:49 AM

I really like the game and pvp especially, but Ilum is terrible right now. And I am a Sith on a very populated server with several big battles every evening.
They should just open it every 2 or 3 hours and limit the players, it would make a huge difference. oh and I like pretty much all your ideas for new content but I doubt we will get anything new except the new promised warzone.

**anewok** · 2012-02-22, 07:59 AM

Ilum is pretty bad. I boycott it on all my toons, whether Imp or Republic. They need to go the Wintergrasp route with it, cause it doesn't work well the way it is right now.

Thread: Thoughts on PvP, Arenas and Warzones

Thread Tools

Thoughts on PvP, Arenas and Warzones

Posting Permissions