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  1. #1

    Tips on which spec is the best way to go.

    Currently I am in a neat situation.

    I am switching back to my priest for my guilds 10 man DS runs. I have the option to go with either Disc or Holy as the group is just starting to form. Currently I am going Holy for 25 LFR DS. And I usually also top the charts. But I also know healing in 10 man is different than healing in 25.

    So with that said which spec is better to go with. Basically which one has more output for a 10 man run?


    Any help with come with a big thanks from me.

    *BIG THANKS IN ADVANCE*

  2. #2
    disc is favored on most fights in 10N and 10H, but depending on your heal comp you may find holy's higher burst more valuable than disc's higher baseline / better spots.

    Specific situations:
    - Zon'ozz, depending on your comp and approach you may need holy hymn.
    - Yor, if you struggle more on non-purple phases than purple phases
    - Holy is always favored on Hagara.
    [edited out spine here, my limited experience and I said something wrong ]

    Outside those specific situations (maybe i missed some, though) disc is mostly favored for 10-man.
    - Disc is always favored for Morchok and Warmaster
    - Disc is usually favored for Madness (unless you're using a peculiar approach where having GS glyphed -- 2.5 min CD -- is far better than PS on a 3 min CD)
    - Zon'ozz - unless being holy allows you to have two strong 3min pure healing CDs - disc will be better. As long as you use an approach allowing healers to plant under the claw, that is.
    - Yor, disc is much better at managing deep corruption than holy.

    Ultraxion is a toss-up, it really depends on comp and who is getting what buff. I 2-heal with a resto shaman, so my only choice for ultraxion is to be holy and take red. I'd be disc, though, if I had the option to.
    edit:
    I think WoL suggests most people tend to favor disc for spine in 10. In logs the specs are neck and neck HPS wise, but someone below prompted me to check. I guess PW:S is just too good to pass up in 10 unless you're just really good at holy. My bad for the wrong info there, I've never done spine H and all the digging I did on the subject was for 25 (where holy is strongly favored)


    Kelesti made a much more in-depth post... Let me go look it up.
    Last edited by zakaluka; 2012-02-22 at 08:18 AM.

  3. #3
    Quote Originally Posted by zakaluka View Post
    - Holy is always favored on Spine and Hagara.

    [...]
    - Disc is usually favored for Spine
    I suppose one of those is an error.

  4. #4
    yes, I made several errors. They have been edited.

    Keep in mind I have no experience beyond ultraxion H. There are people who can probably find something wrong with my reasoning for spine and madness.
    Last edited by zakaluka; 2012-02-22 at 08:16 AM.

  5. #5
    Quote Originally Posted by pretiwhitboy View Post
    Currently I am going Holy for 25 LFR DS. And I usually also top the charts. But I also know healing in 10 man is different than healing in 25.
    i dare to say that healing in normal is different than in lfr

    you mentioned that your 10man raiding team just started to form, so you gonna be doing normal modes for a while.
    for normal modes it really doesnt matter what spec you gonna pick.

    things to consider are
    1. which spec youre better (and more comfortable) with? good disc priest will be always better than bad holy priest, but good holy priest will be better than bad disc
    2. what other classes are (will be) healing with you in those 10 mans? (assuming 2-heal, if 3-heal, it really doesnt matter on normal modes)
    a) resto druid - disc is great synergy with them
    b) paladin - both disc and holy work well
    c) another priest - 1 holy and 1 disc - works great
    d) shaman - if knows how to play, both trees will work

    you may start considering switching to certain spec once you start hard modes, but again, there is no one valid answer.
    examples (only referring to progressing, once hc boss is on farm i just play as i like):
    ultraxion hc - disc with atonement spec - last seconds of that fight were horrid so my 2-3% to on-boss total dmg did feel crucial)
    hagara hc - holy - improved divine hymn for electrical phases and b&s can make it a kill

    now to your question, output, you can check healing ranks yourself, here:
    http://www.worldoflogs.com/rankings/...agon_Soul/hps/

  6. #6
    Herald of the Titans Yilar's Avatar
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    I run with This Disc Spec for all encounters in DS10 HC these days. The only times I would consider switching to holy is for hagara, but since i've killed every week since the start of 4.3 I can't really be bothered to switch.

  7. #7
    Holy is fine for DS10 if you want to keep that spec. Just use Serenity Chakra and direct heals (hello Binding Heal) a ton more. Especially with the 4 set bonus, Holy has a lot high throughput and burst on short CD. Both Morchok and Yorsahj heroic are viable with Holy. Deep Corruption especially should be a non-issue, as keeping a single party up through purple is a joke for priests, regardless of spec.

  8. #8
    I am disc for all fights except H Hagara. Even then, the only reason I'm holy for that fight is just because of improved Divine Hymn for the lightning phase and Body and Soul for the frost phase. If you have a hunter, then you need not worry about Body and Soul, it's just a nice speed boost for running in and out of the bubble for dispels.

  9. #9
    Holy most DS fights have heavy AoE healing phases

  10. #10
    Quote Originally Posted by elfindoia View Post
    Holy most DS fights have heavy AoE healing phases
    Why do people still think holy is best at healing AoE damage? This hasn't been the case in 10man for the last 2 tiers.

    Anyway, I play disc on all fights now. I was holy on hagara for progress, and I've done Morchok/Zon'ozz/Yor'sahj/Ultraxion as holy in the past to try it out. The only fight I'd consider going holy is Hagara for Hymn & speed boost, but it's really not a requirement once it's on farm.

    I think Holy is viable on Morchok/Zon'ozz/Hagara/Ultraxion, although there isn't much to gain being holy but you can if you want to (ie it wont hinder you). For Yor'sahj/Warmaster/Spine/Madness disc is favoured because absorption is just too strong on these fights.

  11. #11
    Herald of the Titans Yilar's Avatar
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    I actually think disc really surpassed holy in T11 when they reduced holy concentration from 40% to 30%, and you started reaching silly amounts of int on your gear (hey +15% int as disc).

  12. #12
    Quote Originally Posted by Halaberiel View Post
    Why do people still think holy is best at healing AoE damage? This hasn't been the case in 10man for the last 2 tiers.
    Hm, it's actually never stopped being true, although it was certainly less true in 4.2. Holy has 15% edit: 10% more burst in a max aoe situation than disc does. If you don't mind a little abuse (situation allows you to maximize bind+BR - think hagara) add another 10% on top. Yes, PI makes up for it, but that's only 15 seconds long. For prolonged AoE holy has more burst, but the mana constraint is still painful.

    The only way to make up that missing 5k burst HPS on disc is with heavy, heavy pre-shielding. It's complicated to compare the two but there is some DURATION of aoe, below which a disc mst build can get better burst than holy, and above which holy is a clear winner. I'm not sure what that cutoff is but i'm willing to bet hagara and ultraxion (at a minimum) are good examples where holy's burst is certainly better. edit: checking the numbers, pre-casting 5 shields puts my hist/crit disc build ahead of my holy build on burst for up to 35 seconds.

    That said, it's only at all meaningful on some fights, I don't agree at all with being holy for all fights in 10-man, and even with what I said above I know why most priests run disc for ultraxion. Disc is still mostly favored wherever OOM limits more than burst. I'm lucky to 2-heal with a shaman, so I get to be holy more than most 10-man raiders.
    Last edited by zakaluka; 2012-03-03 at 06:50 PM.

  13. #13
    I wasn't talking about burst in a max aoe situation. I was talking about disc overall viability as a raid healer in general being far better than holy. The only fight where there is really any debate (in 10m) is Ultraxion, and on that fight it's favorable to just let your priest DPS anyway. I suppose perhaps Hagara also, but only if you don't have a druid, or your raid is REALLY REALLY bad at lightning phase lol xD

  14. #14
    Quote Originally Posted by Halaberiel View Post
    I was talking about disc overall viability as a raid healer in general being far better than holy.
    Me thinks that your bias is clouding your opinion just a tiny bit. And by tiny bit I mean a hell of a lot. Holy is more than capable of doing all the heroic fights in DS. The two specs are so close that personal preference and skill trumps anything else. If you're good at being Holy you can rock out DS. Same for Disc There's wiggle room, depending on the boss. But raid makeup and how your raid meshes with what you play trump anything else.


    I haven't had a reason to go Disc yet this whole expansion, does this mean Holy is the clear winner?
    No, it means that you can play what you want and still kill stuff. :/

  15. #15
    Herald of the Titans Yilar's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Themos View Post
    Me thinks that your bias is clouding your opinion just a tiny bit. And by tiny bit I mean a hell of a lot. Holy is more than capable of doing all the heroic fights in DS. The two specs are so close that personal preference and skill trumps anything else. If you're good at being Holy you can rock out DS. Same for Disc There's wiggle room, depending on the boss. But raid makeup and how your raid meshes with what you play trump anything else.


    I haven't had a reason to go Disc yet this whole expansion, does this mean Holy is the clear winner?
    No, it means that you can play what you want and still kill stuff. :/
    If you think he is bias you should hear yourself. You haven't even tried disc and you say words like "holy is fine and capable". Personal preference and skill has nothing to do with whats best. I dare you to give me an example of where holy is better than disc on any DS fight (10m hc) aside from hagara.

  16. #16
    I used to be a big fan of disc until the latest patch where holy got buffed. After trying both specs extensively, I felt that holy was stronger in most situations. I'm not saying holy is necessary the better spec, they're honestly so close that it comes down to personal preference and the particularities of the fight.

    Quote Originally Posted by Yilar View Post
    If you think he is bias you should hear yourself. You haven't even tried disc and you say words like "holy is fine and capable". Personal preference and skill has nothing to do with whats best. I dare you to give me an example of where holy is better than disc on any DS fight (10m hc) aside from hagara.
    I feel holy is better on most heroic fights if played correctly. On morchok, if you're soaking, binding heal + serendipity is pretty hard to beat. I tried disc on morchok as well, and honestly preshielding is a bit over rated. It's nice and all, but it's not nearly as useful as holy's binding heal + serendipity combo coupled with a very strong divine hymn. On yor, the purple phases are honestly a joke, and I prefer to have the much stronger divine hymn for the two phases that actually require a decent burst of HPS. It's the same story for warlord, I find a strong holy hmyn to be more potent than a PW:B. Having circle of healing is also very nice. Holy clearly has higher HPS on ultraxion, and it also benefits from green more than disc. I like having the speed boost to help soak for warlord, and most people would agree that holy is the clear winner on spine (the HPS advantage for holy is quite obvious in world of logs for this fight). I haven't gotten to madness yet, so I can't comment on that fight. Once again, I'm not saying disc is the inferior spec, just that holy can shine when played correctly. It's not so black and white where one spec is the clear winner.

  17. #17
    Divine Hymn is meh on Morchok, it usually gets interrupted mid cast by the crystal unless you're very careful (get there extremely quick). As disc you get DMG reduction & increased healing from bubble + 1 DH. If your group DPS is decent you're probably only going to get 1 use out of DH/Bubble anyway, so the reduced DH cd is wasted. You also get to preshield the entire group while running to crystal.

    Strange I've always found the purple phases to be the most risky. I guess if you have a DK tank this is different, although there is always the risk of adds stacking on people. I've done red/yellow/black with loads of different combos & it's never been an issue (disc/druid | druid/pally | disc/shaman | disc/druid/shaman) not having DH. I usually use DH on blue/red/black while players are oom, just in case the orb goes down slowly.

    Disc has far far larger HPS on Zon'ozz Odious. That's for sure, since you PoH spam during the black (w/ PI), then shield spam for quite a while afterwards, and this throughput just cannot be beaten by holy. Sure holy can have more burst during black, but afterwards & during bounces it's less than disc. You can preshield debuff targets, and preshield groups before the orb bounces, both of which increases your HPS by a huge amount.

    Holy can't DPS in the same way Disc can for Ultraxion. The green buff point is kinda mute, since if your priest is taking green, better get him to DPS instead of heal for most of the fight. If he's taking red, it's less clear which spec is better. I would probably go with disc purely since they can give DPS PI + they have two cooldowns as oppose to one, plus they suffer less from overheal & are more mana efficient. I think either spec works well on this fight though.

    For Warmaster 10m disc is the far superior spec due to absorbs & dmg reduction. I don't think I need to say much here, it's obvious why disc is the better spec. DMG reduction > DH for shouts, aegis stacking to prevent instant deaths late fight, aegis stacking while adds are dead, preshielding those on circles.

    What do you mean the HPS advantage for holy is quite obvious? There is one holy priest with high healing, and he 2 healed the fight. That has nothing to do with being a better spec, more that there is more stuff to heal. I'm rank 9 on that fight & I finished the fight on 100% mana, it's too hard now to get high HPS (fight is too easy), although maybe we should try 2 healing as well. The advantage of a holy priest here is better debuff healing, which isn't much of an advantage considering shamans/druids/pally all do this beter than a holy priest. The advantage of a disc priest is shields taking dmg before debuff, meaning if you shield someone on low HP with the debuff they can't take damage before the shield is broken. That's pretty unique, holy can do it too but to a lesser extent in that you don't continuously preshield debuff targets with PoH like disc priests do. This preshielding on all out spells makes the raid HP far more stable & even, which is the key to success on this fight really.

  18. #18
    Herald of the Titans Yilar's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by odioushealer View Post
    I used to be a big fan of disc until the latest patch where holy got buffed. After trying both specs extensively, I felt that holy was stronger in most situations. I'm not saying holy is necessary the better spec, they're honestly so close that it comes down to personal preference and the particularities of the fight.



    I feel holy is better on most heroic fights if played correctly. On morchok, if you're soaking, binding heal + serendipity is pretty hard to beat. I tried disc on morchok as well, and honestly preshielding is a bit over rated. It's nice and all, but it's not nearly as useful as holy's binding heal + serendipity combo coupled with a very strong divine hymn. On yor, the purple phases are honestly a joke, and I prefer to have the much stronger divine hymn for the two phases that actually require a decent burst of HPS. It's the same story for warlord, I find a strong holy hmyn to be more potent than a PW:B. Having circle of healing is also very nice. Holy clearly has higher HPS on ultraxion, and it also benefits from green more than disc. I like having the speed boost to help soak for warlord, and most people would agree that holy is the clear winner on spine (the HPS advantage for holy is quite obvious in world of logs for this fight). I haven't gotten to madness yet, so I can't comment on that fight. Once again, I'm not saying disc is the inferior spec, just that holy can shine when played correctly. It's not so black and white where one spec is the clear winner.
    I'll break it down for you.
    Disc has higher output than holy with PI/AA on morchok, if you ever fall behind just use those. You can still use DH as disc, might not be as strong, but who cares. Much of the overhealing as disc goes straight into preventing dmg taken. Last time I did this fight I had almost 40% healing done via DA (solo healing my side). In comparison holy overhealing goes down the drain. Serendipity is ridicolous mana intensive aswell.
    Yor doesn't have to many high healing phases, the only phase where you need to use your big cooldowns is the yellow-red-black one, sure holy DH heals for a ton, but disc can use DH+PWB for that same phase, it only appears once, so what do you think is the better DH+PWB or just DH+100%? Oh and you can add 35k shields on low health people without losing tons of hps, holy just can't do that. Oh and if you struggle on purple phase like red+black+purple, guess what, PWB works there to!
    Warlord has predictable dmg, it's the same story as morchok, the ball bounces around. You don't need speed shields for shit. As disc you can line up PI+AA and a bunch of shields prior to black, as holy you can do what? Renew? Shield 1 target? Right...
    Ultra, you take red as disc and just spam smite till shit gets tough (attonement works with red btw!), then you spam PoH. I'll take 2-3mill dmg off the end any day over 10-15% more healing at the end.
    Spine only requires 2 healers, as disc you can just attonement-nuke the amalgamations and assist if the other healers need help (with rolls or nukes etc.). As holy you just add death weight, as the healing becomes a joke.

  19. #19
    Quote Originally Posted by Halaberiel View Post
    Divine Hymn is meh on Morchok, it usually gets interrupted mid cast by the crystal unless you're very careful (get there extremely quick). As disc you get DMG reduction & increased healing from bubble + 1 DH. If your group DPS is decent you're probably only going to get 1 use out of DH/Bubble anyway, so the reduced DH cd is wasted. You also get to preshield the entire group while running to crystal.
    As I said, I'm soaking on Morchok, so I don't do crystals and thus don't get interrupted. Of course you only cast DH once for morchok, but the power of holy's DH isn't the reduced cooldown, it's the fact that it's twice as strong as disc's DH. You also have to keep in mind that holy has CoH and a higher base AoE heal.
    Strange I've always found the purple phases to be the most risky. I guess if you have a DK tank this is different, although there is always the risk of adds stacking on people. I've done red/yellow/black with loads of different combos & it's never been an issue (disc/druid | druid/pally | disc/shaman | disc/druid/shaman) not having DH. I usually use DH on blue/red/black while players are oom, just in case the orb goes down slowly.
    We use a druid tank, and it's never been a problem for us. I also fresh my renew with direct heals during the purple phase, which is another reason I find holy more potent. Holy has higher direct heals for purple as long as you heal your targets when they're blow 50% hp.
    Disc has far far larger HPS on Zon'ozz Odious. That's for sure, since you PoH spam during the black (w/ PI), then shield spam for quite a while afterwards, and this throughput just cannot be beaten by holy. Sure holy can have more burst during black, but afterwards & during bounces it's less than disc. You can preshield debuff targets, and preshield groups before the orb bounces, both of which increases your HPS by a huge amount.
    Both of clearly capable of producing high HPS on Zon. Holy has the added benefit of giving a speed boost to targets that need to run out to get dispelled. Holy also gets to use CoH while on the move. To say disc has "far far larger HPS" isn't fair nor accurate.
    Holy can't DPS in the same way Disc can for Ultraxion. The green buff point is kinda mute, since if your priest is taking green, better get him to DPS instead of heal for most of the fight. If he's taking red, it's less clear which spec is better. I would probably go with disc purely since they can give DPS PI + they have two cooldowns as oppose to one, plus they suffer less from overheal & are more mana efficient. I think either spec works well on this fight though.
    If your group needs the added dps, than disc definitely has the advantage. Otherwise I agree that they both work well.
    For Warmaster 10m disc is the far superior spec due to absorbs & dmg reduction. I don't think I need to say much here, it's obvious why disc is the better spec. DMG reduction > DH for shouts, aegis stacking to prevent instant deaths late fight, aegis stacking while adds are dead, preshielding those on circles.
    Yea, I agree that disc probably has more advantages on this fight, but I was just trying to point out that holy has benefits that are often also overlooked.
    What do you mean the HPS advantage for holy is quite obvious? There is one holy priest with high healing, and he 2 healed the fight. That has nothing to do with being a better spec, more that there is more stuff to heal. I'm rank 9 on that fight & I finished the fight on 100% mana, it's too hard now to get high HPS (fight is too easy), although maybe we should try 2 healing as well. The advantage of a holy priest here is better debuff healing, which isn't much of an advantage considering shamans/druids/pally all do this beter than a holy priest. The advantage of a disc priest is shields taking dmg before debuff, meaning if you shield someone on low HP with the debuff they can't take damage before the shield is broken. That's pretty unique, holy can do it too but to a lesser extent in that you don't continuously preshield debuff targets with PoH like disc priests do. This preshielding on all out spells makes the raid HP far more stable & even, which is the key to success on this fight really.
    The more frequent use of a stronger holy hymn is really nice on spine, IMHO. Holy also gets to make great use of rerolling renews on spine. I didn't mean to imply that disc aren't good at spine, although I still feel holy is better.

    ---------- Post added 2012-03-05 at 12:10 AM ----------

    Quote Originally Posted by Yilar View Post
    I'll break it down for you.
    Disc has higher output than holy with PI/AA on morchok, if you ever fall behind just use those. You can still use DH as disc, might not be as strong, but who cares. Much of the overhealing as disc goes straight into preventing dmg taken. Last time I did this fight I had almost 40% healing done via DA (solo healing my side). In comparison holy overhealing goes down the drain. Serendipity is ridicolous mana intensive aswell.
    You're not going to have mana issues on a fight as short as morchok.
    Yor doesn't have to many high healing phases, the only phase where you need to use your big cooldowns is the yellow-red-black one, sure holy DH heals for a ton, but disc can use DH+PWB for that same phase, it only appears once, so what do you think is the better DH+PWB or just DH+100%? Oh and you can add 35k shields on low health people without losing tons of hps, holy just can't do that. Oh and if you struggle on purple phase like red+black+purple, guess what, PWB works there to!
    The way we do yor, we have two high healing phases, not one. Flash heal + serendipity allow holy not to "lose tons of hps" if we need to bring up low HP targets.
    Warlord has predictable dmg, it's the same story as morchok, the ball bounces around. You don't need speed shields for shit. As disc you can line up PI+AA and a bunch of shields prior to black, as holy you can do what? Renew? Shield 1 target? Right...
    Ultra, you take red as disc and just spam smite till shit gets tough (attonement works with red btw!), then you spam PoH. I'll take 2-3mill dmg off the end any day over 10-15% more healing at the end.
    Spine only requires 2 healers, as disc you can just attonement-nuke the amalgamations and assist if the other healers need help (with rolls or nukes etc.). As holy you just add death weight, as the healing becomes a joke.
    See my previous reply.

  20. #20
    when a conversation breaks down into line-item rebuttal, it's no longer a constructive discussion, and nobody is participating at all except the two people arguing.

    when I see:

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    .... I just don't read it. I'm fairly certain 90% of everyone feels the same.

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