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  1. #1041
    I think everyone in Toronto though knew he was basically on borrowed time that the first time the Red Sox came calling he'd be off like a shot - that'll make a lot of people cynical to say the least and if his players had the feeling he saw Toronto as a stepping stone to the big job at Fenway well, that'll cause friction.
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  2. #1042
    At the end of the day, I think John Gibbons is a solid replacement. Returning to the organization with a completely different culture and GM as well as a far more committed ownership because of the confidence they have had in their GM the last few years was why the deal was done and was why Gibbons came back. He has a new boss to deal with and not an idiot like JP Retarded was and he has the experience to deal with both the young and old egos on the bench and in the locker room.

  3. #1043
    Just as well, because there's some hurt egos in that locker room!
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  4. #1044
    Fluffy Kitten conscript's Avatar
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    Carols Ruiz suspended 25 games for testing positive for an amphetamine.
    Mets offer David Wright a 7 year extension.

    ---------- Post added 2012-11-28 at 01:00 PM ----------

    HOF Ballot was released today. This is the first year for Bonds, Clemens, Sosa, Piazza, and Schillings. Can't wait to see who, if anyone, actually gets in from the first year guys. Full list of first year players:
    Sandy Alomar Jr., Craig Biggio, Barry Bonds, Jeff Cirillo, Royce Clayton, Roger Clemens, Jeff Conine, Steve Finley, Julio Franco, Shawn Green, Roberto Hernandez, Ryan Klesko, Kenny Lofton, Jose Mesa, Mike Piazza, Reggie Sanders, Curt Schilling, Aaron Sele, Sammy Sosa, Mike Stanton, Todd Walker, David Wells, Rondell White and Woody Williams.

  5. #1045
    HoF doesn't have the best players in baseball. i see no reason to vote anyone else in. it's not very meaningful. it's lost its appeal. the best players are in the record books.

    when i was growing up i knew who all the record holders were because at the time, it seemed most important. i saw barry bonds' career from start to finish and the guy was exactly what was in mind when they came up with the HoF.

    him NOT getting in doesn't hurt his legacy at all. he knows, just like everyone else does, that he was not only the best of his era but possibly the best of all time. the 90s were as competitive as any era in baseball and to set as many records as bonds did, to be so damn feared they walk you intentionally with the bases loaded, just proves how dominant he was.

    keeping them out will only make their legend grow. people TODAY don't realize how great of a power hitter mcgwire was even as a rookie. a healthy mcgwire was a HR hitting machine.

    what's funny is guys like royce clayton, shawn green, aaron sele, etc will get in because they're not bonds, mcgwire, clemens, etc

    they are not what you think of when you think Hall of Fame. lots of guys in the HoF are like that. it's just not relevant because they chose to water down inductions to get back at guys they didn't like (writers)

    it's kind of sad. baseball has fallen so far in my lifetime. went from 'america's past time' and the #1 most popular sport to fighting basketball for #2 in overall popularity while growing less as a league than both football and basketball

    the 90s did a lot to reverse a negative trend for MLB that started in the early 80s but by 2000 football was undisputed king again

  6. #1046
    The Lightbringer draynay's Avatar
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    whoa hey lets not go crazy, it might not meet your expectations but that doesn't mean Royce Clayton or Aaron Sele are getting it, it isn't the hall of mediocrity yet
    Last edited by draynay; 2012-11-29 at 12:10 AM.

  7. #1047
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    Quote Originally Posted by fizzbob View Post
    HoF doesn't have the best players in baseball. i see no reason to vote anyone else in. it's not very meaningful. it's lost its appeal. the best players are in the record books.

    when i was growing up i knew who all the record holders were because at the time, it seemed most important. i saw barry bonds' career from start to finish and the guy was exactly what was in mind when they came up with the HoF.

    him NOT getting in doesn't hurt his legacy at all. he knows, just like everyone else does, that he was not only the best of his era but possibly the best of all time. the 90s were as competitive as any era in baseball and to set as many records as bonds did, to be so damn feared they walk you intentionally with the bases loaded, just proves how dominant he was.

    keeping them out will only make their legend grow. people TODAY don't realize how great of a power hitter mcgwire was even as a rookie. a healthy mcgwire was a HR hitting machine.

    what's funny is guys like royce clayton, shawn green, aaron sele, etc will get in because they're not bonds, mcgwire, clemens, etc

    they are not what you think of when you think Hall of Fame. lots of guys in the HoF are like that. it's just not relevant because they chose to water down inductions to get back at guys they didn't like (writers)

    it's kind of sad. baseball has fallen so far in my lifetime. went from 'america's past time' and the #1 most popular sport to fighting basketball for #2 in overall popularity while growing less as a league than both football and basketball

    the 90s did a lot to reverse a negative trend for MLB that started in the early 80s but by 2000 football was undisputed king again
    What the heck am I reading? Players like Royce Clayton, Shawn Green or Aaron Sele will have zero chance of making the HoF. The MLB Hall of Fame is one of the most exclusive in the entire pantheon of sports. If any HoF has the 'best players' representing it, it's baseball's. It's downright too exclusive even not including the PED issue.

    Is Barry Bonds a HoF type player? Yes. I agree on that, but you seem kind of oblivious to everything else.

    Baseball is also healthier than its ever been. EVERY single team rakes in a profit. The league hasn't seen a work stoppage in almost 20 years, again better than any of the other big four sports in America. The Dodgers were just sold for over $2B dollars, basically making it the most valuable sports franchise in the world. On top of that, they are going to agree on a $6-7B TV deal with FOX. Almost every team has built a new stadium in the past twenty years. Baseball is better than its ever been. Just look at the past 3 postseasons. Shit's been amazing.
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  8. #1048
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    Quote Originally Posted by fizzbob View Post
    keeping them out will only make their legend grow.
    I agree with this part completely. How often would Pete Rose be brought up ever compared to how much he is mentioned today? 5%? 10%? He is never brought up as the hits leader unless it is a story about Jeter. Almost every single mention he gets is about how much of a joke it is he isn't in the Hall. The Hall of Fame gave him a bigger podium by not putting him in than if they just put him in. It is going to be the same for Bonds, Mac, Clemens, etc. They can't close their eyes and wish away the last twenty years. If Selig had done his fucking job the problem never would have reached the peak it did. Instead he closed his eyes, rolled his naked old man body around in a pile of money as the credibility of his sport eroded to the point where as soon as any player now has even a minor spike in production people instantly question whether he is using or not.

  9. #1049
    I think on looking at that list there's maybe 1-2 guys who are possible candidates for first ballot entry and there's a whole bunch of candidates who will be waiting a very long time before they're admitted, if infact they ever are! You have to look at Craig Biggio & Curt Schilling as having the best shot at it from that list, Biggio's 3000 hits will go a long way towards that and well, Schilling didn't have a poor career by any standards maybe a little short on wins perhaps but still a compelling case. You'll probably see Mike Piazza get banded around a lot over the next few years as well.

    Then there's guys like Clemmens, Bonds & Sosa - they on the other hand are inextricably linked to steroid use and say what you like, that's going to sting, badly. Bonds by no means wasn't a naturally talented ballplayer, in his early career he was great - but in his later career, well, he was a bomber, but was he the natural bomber or the chemically enhanced one?!?

    They won't be the last names on the ballot who will be linked, not even the first names on the ballot who're linked and guess what, they're not the best names on the ballot who'll be linked (which I think will be taken by everyone's favourite 3B & womaniser Alex Rodriguez) but for now we'll see how they fare, but I can guess that they will not have strong support. Maybe from respective fan bases yes, but that's not going to help them - sports writers will decide, will it harm any of their "legacies" well, sorry to say it, but the boat sailed on that possibility when the steroid era was blown open and their legacies were damaged then, so I doubt failure to gain entry to the HoF will make any difference to that.
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  10. #1050
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    Quote Originally Posted by koodledrum View Post
    I think on looking at that list there's maybe 1-2 guys who are possible candidates for first ballot entry and there's a whole bunch of candidates who will be waiting a very long time before they're admitted, if infact they ever are! You have to look at Craig Biggio & Curt Schilling as having the best shot at it from that list, Biggio's 3000 hits will go a long way towards that and well, Schilling didn't have a poor career by any standards maybe a little short on wins perhaps but still a compelling case. You'll probably see Mike Piazza get banded around a lot over the next few years as well.

    Then there's guys like Clemmens, Bonds & Sosa - they on the other hand are inextricably linked to steroid use and say what you like, that's going to sting, badly. Bonds by no means wasn't a naturally talented ballplayer, in his early career he was great - but in his later career, well, he was a bomber, but was he the natural bomber or the chemically enhanced one?!?

    They won't be the last names on the ballot who will be linked, not even the first names on the ballot who're linked and guess what, they're not the best names on the ballot who'll be linked (which I think will be taken by everyone's favourite 3B & womaniser Alex Rodriguez) but for now we'll see how they fare, but I can guess that they will not have strong support. Maybe from respective fan bases yes, but that's not going to help them - sports writers will decide, will it harm any of their "legacies" well, sorry to say it, but the boat sailed on that possibility when the steroid era was blown open and their legacies were damaged then, so I doubt failure to gain entry to the HoF will make any difference to that.
    What makes me the maddest is that baseball is a generational sport. The HoF is something you take your kid to and they take their kid to. Its been like that for 100 years. In 20 years when guys say my age or younger are taking their kids, is there going to be this giant void of guys from the mid-90s to the mid 2000s? When you look at the Hall members for that era are they just going to seem fucking boring and drab by comparison to the other eras. Schilling and Biggio are great and all, but I'm sorry the summer where Sosa and Mac were gunning for the HR record was the single most exciting time in baseball in my 25 years of life and it isn't even close. Its a total sham that they would keep that era out of the Hall while guys have been doing the equivalent of their era's roids forever. I don't care if Sosa and Mac were roid fueled. So were the pitchers. Hank Aaron was fueled by greenies his entire career. He has said so himself. Everyone in that era was using the PEs available just like guys in the steroid era were using the PEs they could get. Its hypocritical bullshit to try and erase the steroid era from what is supposed to be the great display of baseball's history.

  11. #1051
    See I'm inclined to agree that the summer Sosa & McGwire seemed to be blow for blow that it was exciting at the time, but lets be fair there's a piece of me that doesn't feel right knowing now that atleast one of them was on steroids for sure and the other was most probably the same. As much as we all know players were on various things before the major steroid era there's the fact that steroids are pretty much constantly evolving to improve & increase their effect - and the numbers don't lie in certain cases, they got real big, real quick!

    We're fortunate that we DO have players which aren't tainted by the slur of steroid use (Junior, Gwynn, Ripken, Jeter would all immediately spring to mind) but you're right, it will seem wrong if in 20 years time we're looking at Cooperstown and seeing a massive "power gap" from around 95-05 including the likes of Bonds, McGwire & Sosa - but it would seem equally wrong for them to be enshrined when we now know their achievements at the very best to be tainted. But lets be brutally honest here, the baseball HoF is already missing one component to give it absolute credibility (granted for reasons of his own making) in Pete Rose, so will it really be all that strange that there's a decade long power outage to explain when you've already got to explain why the guy who has more hits than anyone in baseball isn't in there despite the fact he's also got 3 rings & an MVP to his name? Atleast in that case you know that the only dirty numbers he ever put up were his bookie's!
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  12. #1052
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    http://www.letsgotribe.com/2012/11/2...come?ref=yahoo

    Indians GM Mark Shapiro says "if all you care about is winning, don't come to the games". way to look out of touch with your fanbase, Mark. this is every bit as poorly thought-out as anything Chris Perez said over the last year...
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  13. #1053
    Fluffy Kitten conscript's Avatar
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    http://www.grantland.com/blog/the-tr...ont-be-counted
    Quality article about some of the Hall guys with links to great articles about how much of a joke pretending the steroid era was out of whack with the history of baseball. Fun quip from the article:
    Pud Galvin, a Hall of Fame member since 1965, drank an elixir made from testosterone, which itself was derived from monkey testicles. In 1889.

  14. #1054
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    So Steroids or other PED's wasn't illegal back in the 90's (and yes just about everybody was on it) but baseball considers it cheating. I'm just tired of hearing about it all the last decade and now since 3 of the big boys are ready to join the cycle has started all over again.

  15. #1055
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    they're going to make them wait, they like to make people wait

    if they wanted to be sensible they would have to re-evaluate the criteria for entrance now, considering power numbers were way up for the era, they will be depreciated in value towards HoF entrance

    they will have to put more weight into All-Star game appearances, post-season performance, and awards

    I could certainly see guys like McGwire and Sosa being put on hold, but Bonds won so many awards it would be difficult to explain leaving him out without causing the huge PED HoF shitstorm

  16. #1056
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    I hope Lofton gets in if for no other reason than of all the players in old school baseball video games I was most apprehensive of facing in games it was Big Hurt and then Lofton. Lofton always was stupid fast and would always make contact. Piazza should get in as well. It would be a total sham if the best offensive catcher ever doesn't make it. I wouldn't be surprised if he doesn't this year though because of all the fucking "never vote for first year players" voters. They are the same morons who support the "never vote for a freshman" Heisman voters. The baseball HoF voting procedure is just slightly less fucktarded than the basketball HoF, but it is close.

  17. #1057
    Can't use All-Star Game appearances if you're devaluing power numbers as well, lets be blunt here - chicks dig the long ball - the guys who hit a crap ton of homers in the 90's were among the biggest vote getters in the ASG, lets be honest, Sammy Sosa was never an all-star in his life if you take the big flies out of the equation!

    It doesn't matter how you dress it up, this is going to cause a shitstorm for 20-25 years no two ways about that and it's going to cause a shitstorm in 50 years time when people look back regardless as to if these players make it or not - you'll have guys like me who will always associate them with PED's as a matter of course over their career records & guys who'll say "oh well, it wasn't illegal and they were all on it". Neither sentiment is particularly correct in reality, neither sentiment is incorrect either (save for the insistence "they were all on it" as you can name players from the era who weren't) but you could draw similarities with other great "right & wrong" decisions in history, it's going to fuel debate.

    But by the same measure, you've got those guys then you have the fact the guy with more hits than anyone else in major league history has or will ever get (that record will not be broken) isn't in there - but I hear you say, he gambled and lied about it - but in 30 years time what would you tell your kids if they're smart enough to say "so gambling's so bad it keeps you out the HoF, but you can go ahead & use drugs without it stopping you?". Don't know about the rest of you, but I'd struggle to justify that.

    That's why I much prefer things being a lot simpler, the Scottish Football Association - probably the only governing body more retarded than MLB (and I actually mean that, incompetent doesn't get close to the SFA) have a hall of fame, there's one lock way to get in, 50 international caps!
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  18. #1058
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    Russell Martin signs with the Pirates, pending a physical.

    David Wright signs a 7-year, $122 Mil. extension with the Mets.
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  19. #1059
    Strange move by Russell Martin to be fair, going to the Pirates is at best a bold move and truthfully is a pretty bizarre decision - especially given the fact there were teams out there in need of a catcher who are a lot more likely to achieve success! Good for David Wright though, shows a great deal of loyalty which is on the decline in baseball right now, would be good to see the Mets y'know, not stink for a year or two!
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  20. #1060
    The Lightbringer draynay's Avatar
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    look at all these bargain contracts, first Longoria and now Wright

    its as if players realized they have to sign below-market extensions to stay with their club since everybody who signs lucrative contracts just ends up dumped on the Yankees/Red Sox/Dodgers/Angels or maybe Blue Jays

    I don't know whats up with Martin, he seems to take things too personally, maybe he thought it impossible for somebody to outbid the Yankees, let alone the Pirates, the Yankees must not want me! nobody wants me! except Pittsburgh!

    or maybe he didn't like being the little fish in the big pond

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