GW2 Thief Discussion

[Glytch]

Basilisk Venom is a 100% its just too good for a Ranged Thief with just 45 sec CD. The question is what to get in the other slots?

Venom Vs Signets?
?
Which fits better with P/P?

Was also thinking about the Shadowstep one -panther- another great way to create distance as I shadowstep to a location and if used again returns me to initial spot.

How is this:

http://gw2.luna-atra.fr/skills_tool/...8l8s92969lk0k2

the benefit to going signets is that you can afford to go all 30 points into crit, whereas if you try to use alot of venoms (that, is, you want poison damage) then you'll be relying more on condition damage, which you'll want to have stuff in trickery for damage and DA for duration ad for the traits that affect poison and venoms

personally i hate signets in gw2 so id suggest condition damage (out of the 2)

also a note on thieves guild: the 2 thieves it spawns (d/d, p/p) are REALLY good for spiking down a target, esp svanir and the chieftain on the forest map (50 score on kill, 30s long +50 to all stats buff)

also note you cna switch skills out in the middle of a match

[Cempa]

Nice didn't know that

[Glytch]

Nice didn't know that

as long as you're not in combat you can swap skills and traits (majors) out as you please

the skill cant be on cooldown tho

[Cempa]

Ok cool, so now I can focus on signets...How valuable is toughness? 30 Shadow Arts is overkill?

Deadly Arts 0
Critical Strike 30 /w cripple/haste/Pistol dmg
Shadow Arts
Acrobatic
Trickery

What I was thinking is have some Initiative regen and the rest into mitigation? Or boost Toughness and Vitality?

[Glytch]

Ok cool, so now I can focus on signets...How valuable is toughness? 30 Shadow Arts is overkill?

Deadly Arts 0
Critical Strike 30 /w cripple/haste/Pistol dmg
Shadow Arts
Acrobatic
Trickery

What I was thinking is have some Initiative regen and the rest into mitigation? Or boost Toughness and Vitality?

well all of the signet traits (fast signets, signet use, signets of power) are crit strike traits, so you cant get them with those 3 you said you want (the reason i said if you wanted to go signets you would be able to use 30 crit)

and when you're thinking about which trait line to go into think about everything you get, the bonus stats, the minors and any possible majors.

of note: DA will increase the duration of your cripples, whether from dancing dagger in the p/d set or from ankle shots from all of your pistol skills

since you want to kite alot you might prefer acro more than shadow, things like combined tactics (init return after a dual skill), power of inertia(might on dodge), quick pockets (2 init on weapon swap) and quick recovery (2 init every 10 sec) are acro traits you might like

shadow might not be as suited to what you want to do, that being said some traits you might consider are hidden thief (Stealing stealths you) and leeching venoms (venoms heal you) Assuming you end up taking a venom

the 300 toughness from shadow arts is basically -300 damage off all damage you take, per hit (save for conditions) compassion will increase your healing

in acro you get vitality. 300 vit equals 3000 extra health and 1% boon duration per point in acro (thieves dont get alot of self applied "boons", the most notable being hide in shadows. but you can get quite a few via traits)

[DrakeWurrum]

The Thief signets I hate significantly less than signets for other professions, but that's because you can trait to gain initiative when you use them. Then you can also trait to gain Might from using them. So while you lose the passive effect, you gain a lot of usefulness from using them... but not so useful that you want to spam them on CD - timing their usage properly is important even without considering the passive effect. You don't want to gain initiative when you're either full, or not in place to use it - and you don't want to gain Might unless you're about to hit them really hard.
The passive effect being there just means that holding them cooldowns doesn't punish you that bad.

My own signet-heavy build focused heavily on using CnD, but like Glytch said, it could translate well for your Pistol-focused build. The only problem with it is that you suddenly have a conflict of interests in the Critical Strikes line, because the following traits are all useful:
Signet Use
Fast Signets
Signets of Power
Ankle Shots
Pistol Mastery

And then, personally, I would also find a few of the other traits there useful just in general:
Combo Crit Chance
Critical Haste
Executioner

So imo, you could make such a build that would work, but... the truth is, in my personal opinion, you're over-loading yourself in regards to trait lines. It just seems wise to spread out a little bit so you can get full benefits.

Worth noting: You shouldn't worry too much about the attributes you get from trait lines. They're useful, obviously, but from what I could tell, you get more from your gear. I especially noticed that a lot of the armor runes that were heavy on precision were also heavy on expertise or malice, so apparently conditions and crits go hand-in-hand.

Venoms isn't a bad way to go for Pistols in general. Your auto-attack stacks up Bleed, so it's not like it's bad to go into Deadly Arts and Trickery. I still stand by the two builds I linked you originally (weapons aren't quite right in those, due to mis-reading), one for offense and one for defense, if you want to stick it out with Venoms.

If you want to try a Venom-less build, for Pistols... I'd personally try this:
http://www.gw2builds.org/create/bwe_....2.1.10.2.9.12

Extreme mobility, plus caltrops for extra snaring (use right before the P/D-3), and since you might have to dodge a lot to stay away from melee... well, you gain Swiftness and Might from dodging! To help that, using Withdraw also gives you Vigor (I figure, you'd save Withdraw for when you can't dodge anymore, and you've taken some damage, or else just because you're snared).
Best part is having three ways to remove conditions, so you don't really need to get the Hard to Catch trait. (but if you REALLY want it, you can trade out Combined Tactics for it, though it makes the build have less initiative regen)
Possible tweak: move Combined Training into Trickery to grab the Uncatchable trait - this means that not only do you gain Might and Swiftness when you dodge, and gain some of that endurance back, but you also leave behind caltrops every time you dodge. (plus the added bonus of using Steal as a way to gain some init back)

You don't have much in the way of damage conditions with this, but you can still stack up Vulnerability with your Pistol-2, and Stealing will still Poison and Weaken them, and like Glytch said you have your Cripples (both Dagger-4 and Pistol crits), so it's not that bad to have Expertise.


Hell, I think I should actually save these three builds in case I ever want to try 'em...

[Migey]

Why do people hate Signets? I love the concept! Useful when out of combat, but also useful if you want to use it. It's never wasted.

[DrakeWurrum]

Why do people hate Signets? I love the concept! Useful when out of combat, but also useful if you want to use it. It's never wasted.

I just dislike the trade-off nature of it. For Thieves, when traited, I think it works out well, but for other professions... not so much.

Like the Warrior signets? You can trait to gain +40 Precision for each one, thus weighing in heavily on the side of never using your utilities. I don't like the idea of holding back on skill usage just because of passives. It's nice for the passives to be there for when you delay using the cooldown, and thus you're not pressured to use them on CD, but in some cases it's just ridiculous. They need to be balanced just right so that you don't feel like you're being punished for using your skills, but not so weak that the passives aren't attractive.

[Glytch]

Why do people hate Signets? I love the concept! Useful when out of combat, but also useful if you want to use it. It's never wasted.

to be fair i only got to play with signet of malice


but i didnt like it, even with daggers' attack speeds

it has "half" the amount of healing (that is, it heals as much as withdraw does, half as much that prayer to dwayna, which is double that of both, 240 opposed to 120) but a longer cooldown. sure the heal on hit is there but i much prefer to withdraw (or hide in shadows) since you get condition removal (control for withdraw and damage for hide)

in short, when you actually use a signet it feels too weak. non signet skills have more of an impact when you use them, either more effect or just more numbers

[Loaf Lord]

The signets for thieves are rather well done imo. The reason I usually dislike them is because they usually have passives and actives that simply increase your stats. In the warriors case, if you want to do max damage you're going to want to have a LOT of the signets, which sucks because I'd rather be using utility skills instead of pressing a button to increase my damage, but at the same time I want to be able to do the max damage.

[Nexrex]

http://www.gw2builds.org/view/144001..._pistol_dagger

Did anyone get a chance to try this out?
I was stuck on going daggerx2 and pistolx2, and saw this a bit too late last beta weekend. But this really does look promising and is in fact a style of play I would probably love alot more than what I ended up playing.

Any thoughts?

[Glytch]

first you cant abuse shadow refuge's stealth pulsing to spam sneak attack, you'll get revealed

second looks like theres not alot of init regen

the utilities seem to only complement the second weapon set, allowing it to naturally gain init back, but for an aggressive fighting style thats way too much downtime

and the blackpowder-> heartseeker combo costs 9 init to do, with 2 refunded after infusion

also you cant reuse the black powder to restealth because 1) you have revealed and 2) you can only combo off a field once

i think the build doesnt have enough support for it's main strategy and will end up beign init starved

[Nexrex]

first you cant abuse shadow refuge's stealth pulsing to spam sneak attack, you'll get revealed

second looks like theres not alot of init regen

the utilities seem to only complement the second weapon set, allowing it to naturally gain init back, but for an aggressive fighting style thats way too much downtime

and the blackpowder-> heartseeker combo costs 9 init to do, with 2 refunded after infusion

also you cant reuse the black powder to restealth because 1) you have revealed and 2) you can only combo off a field once

i think the build doesnt have enough support for it's main strategy and will end up beign init starved

Havent gotten around to testing it like I said, but in terms of just weapon sets its actually how I would love to play my thief, So I'm hoping the weapon sets used can be a good combo
Anyone has any thoughts on a better synergy build then feel free to share ofc
And thx for your swift reply Glytch

[Glytch]

Havent gotten around to testing it like I said, but in terms of just weapon sets its actually how I would love to play my thief, So I'm hoping the weapon sets used can be a good combo
Anyone has any thoughts on a better synergy build then feel free to share ofc

tbh as ive pointed out before (page 52) i feel that the dagger and pistol combos are more suited for secondary sets than primary. they dont feel as complete as d/d, p/p and the sword sets. sadly theres not much you can do about it unless you redo the dagger and pistol offhand attack,s a change to duals probably wont cut it. but at least they have a use. and im sure someone will think up a spec where they are primary sets (i know sy likes p/d)

thats just how i felt playing with them. i do think a p/d trap focused spec could work out very well tho

And thx for your swift reply Glytch

its kinda hit or miss i usually do one huge batch of replies to my subbed threads then watch for 15 mins then go about my business

[Cempa]

The Thief signets I hate significantly less than signets for other professions, but that's because you can trait to gain initiative when you use them. Then you can also trait to gain Might from using them. So while you lose the passive effect, you gain a lot of usefulness from using them... but not so useful that you want to spam them on CD - timing their usage properly is important even without considering the passive effect. You don't want to gain initiative when you're either full, or not in place to use it - and you don't want to gain Might unless you're about to hit them really hard.
The passive effect being there just means that holding them cooldowns doesn't punish you that bad.

My own signet-heavy build focused heavily on using CnD, but like Glytch said, it could translate well for your Pistol-focused build. The only problem with it is that you suddenly have a conflict of interests in the Critical Strikes line, because the following traits are all useful:
Signet Use
Fast Signets
Signets of Power
Ankle Shots
Pistol Mastery

And then, personally, I would also find a few of the other traits there useful just in general:
Combo Crit Chance
Critical Haste
Executioner

So imo, you could make such a build that would work, but... the truth is, in my personal opinion, you're over-loading yourself in regards to trait lines. It just seems wise to spread out a little bit so you can get full benefits.

Worth noting: You shouldn't worry too much about the attributes you get from trait lines. They're useful, obviously, but from what I could tell, you get more from your gear. I especially noticed that a lot of the armor runes that were heavy on precision were also heavy on expertise or malice, so apparently conditions and crits go hand-in-hand.

Venoms isn't a bad way to go for Pistols in general. Your auto-attack stacks up Bleed, so it's not like it's bad to go into Deadly Arts and Trickery. I still stand by the two builds I linked you originally (weapons aren't quite right in those, due to mis-reading), one for offense and one for defense, if you want to stick it out with Venoms.

If you want to try a Venom-less build, for Pistols... I'd personally try this:
http://www.gw2builds.org/create/bwe_....2.1.10.2.9.12

Extreme mobility, plus caltrops for extra snaring (use right before the P/D-3), and since you might have to dodge a lot to stay away from melee... well, you gain Swiftness and Might from dodging! To help that, using Withdraw also gives you Vigor (I figure, you'd save Withdraw for when you can't dodge anymore, and you've taken some damage, or else just because you're snared).
Best part is having three ways to remove conditions, so you don't really need to get the Hard to Catch trait. (but if you REALLY want it, you can trade out Combined Tactics for it, though it makes the build have less initiative regen)
Possible tweak: move Combined Training into Trickery to grab the Uncatchable trait - this means that not only do you gain Might and Swiftness when you dodge, and gain some of that endurance back, but you also leave behind caltrops every time you dodge. (plus the added bonus of using Steal as a way to gain some init back)

You don't have much in the way of damage conditions with this, but you can still stack up Vulnerability with your Pistol-2, and Stealing will still Poison and Weaken them, and like Glytch said you have your Cripples (both Dagger-4 and Pistol crits), so it's not that bad to have Expertise.


Hell, I think I should actually save these three builds in case I ever want to try 'em...

I like that trait spread in the Venom-less build as I understand maxed Acro gives higher theoretical HP, more initiative among other things.

[DrakeWurrum]

I like that trait spread in the Venom-less build as I understand maxed Acro gives higher theoretical HP, more initiative among other things.

I personally love the Acrobatics line as well. My only real complaint is that it has Concentration as it's second attribute, which essentially makes you feel "required" to select traits that give boons, simply because traits are basically the only way a Thief has of applying boons.

Basically, my complaint is that we need more boon-applying utilities. Maybe they could add a "Cloak of Shadows" that applies Protection to ourselves. :O!

[Glytch]

I personally love the Acrobatics line as well. My only real complaint is that it has Concentration as it's second attribute, which essentially makes you feel "required" to select traits that give boons, simply because traits are basically the only way a Thief has of applying boons.

Basically, my complaint is that we need more boon-applying utilities. Maybe they could add a "Cloak of Shadows" that applies Protection to ourselves. :O!

for 6 init... i agree

or torches...with boons... and support heals

[DrakeWurrum]

for 6 init... i agree

O_o

A utility skill costing initiative?

[Glytch]

O_o

A utility skill costing initiative?

i read cloak and dagger

i need to go to sleep

[DrakeWurrum]

OIC. been there.

I just think there's potential for nifty boon-centered utilities like that. Maybe even some that apply boons to nearby allies... I miss how Signet of Agility used to apply Vigor to all nearby allies, but now it skips that and just fully restores endurance.

It would satisfy my desire to see more Support-themed Thieves.

---------- Post added 2012-05-21 at 04:30 PM ----------

According to the wiki, Black Powder and Daze Shot were swapped on the bar. Black Powder costs 4 init and Daze Shot costs 5.

When did this happen? It was not like this in the stress test. I quite distinctly remember Daze Shot being the 4, and Black Powder being the 5... I'm also nearly positive Daze Shot only costed 4 init. Think I'll go and tweak that real quick...