1. #241
    Quote Originally Posted by DrakeWurrum View Post
    That, also, is completely illogical. :S

    I may be getting overly passionate with my rants, but it just... makes no sense to me to have that design.
    Are you saying my reasoning is illogical or the fact that they can is?
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  2. #242
    The Insane DrakeWurrum's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Allanon the Mystic View Post
    Are you saying my reasoning is illogical or the fact that they can is?
    The fact that they can is.

    Both those lines, honestly.
    I hope you haven't forgotten my role in this little story. I'm the leading man. You know what they say about the leading man? He never dies.

    If you give in to your impulses in this world, the price is that it changes your personality in the real world. The player and character are one and the same.

  3. #243
    I would personally love an ability that let you change your current location to either:
    The nearest, the furthest, a random clone, or current targeted clone.
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  4. #244
    Please don't generalize that he is the only person who views it as a problem, or the voice that says everyone else agrees that it isn't a problem.
    The 'problem' is that only a minority is seeing this as a 'problem', The consensus remains tho, we don't even agree that this problem exists. I'm not speaking for everyone nor did I ever claim to, but I did say we, because I'm well aware I'm not the only one who views this as at best a very minor concern. If one at all.


    My personal view on it is that it doesn't make sense, and I would like to dual wield pistols but can't.
    Not being able to use Dual Pistols is like a thief being unable to Dual Wield swords but a Mesmer can to me.

    Thieves should be able to DW Swords because a mainly a range oriented class like a Mesmer can.
    Mesmers should be able to DW Pistols because a mainly melee oriented class can.
    This is a general fallacy among arguments," because point A is true, point B must also be true".
    Which is just plain incorrect.

    I agree tho, thieves should be able to dualwield swords! I see no problem with that.
    Mesmers shouldn't be dualwielding a pistol, they're casters, not ranged pistoliers. For what it is worth, I'd gladly see the offhand pistol be removed aswell.

    However, I see no problem at all with the lack of a mainhand pistol, the mesmer is a caster first and foremost and does not need a 'ranged' weapon as their main weapon.


    As for "illogical design" however, take a glance at the other "phantasms" the mesmer can summon, most of the summons are pretty much the other classes.
    Berserker - Warrior
    Warlock - Necromancer
    Warden - Guardian
    Duelist - Thief

    Lets see if we can link the other ones aswell, I don't see whats so illogical about it tho.

  5. #245
    The Lightbringer Durzlla's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by luedieniel View Post
    The 'problem' is that only a minority is seeing this as a 'problem', The consensus remains tho, we don't even agree that this problem exists. I'm not speaking for everyone nor did I ever claim to, but I did say we, because I'm well aware I'm not the only one who views this as at best a very minor concern. If one at all.


    My personal view on it is that it doesn't make sense, and I would like to dual wield pistols but can't.
    Not being able to use Dual Pistols is like a thief being unable to Dual Wield swords but a Mesmer can to me.


    This is a general fallacy among arguments," because point A is true, point B must also be true".
    Which is just plain incorrect.

    I agree tho, thieves should be able to dualwield swords! I see no problem with that.
    Mesmers shouldn't be dualwielding a pistol, they're casters, not ranged pistoliers. For what it is worth, I'd gladly see the offhand pistol be removed aswell.

    However, I see no problem at all with the lack of a mainhand pistol, the mesmer is a caster first and foremost and does not need a 'ranged' weapon as their main weapon.


    As for "illogical design" however, take a glance at the other "phantasms" the mesmer can summon, most of the summons are pretty much the other classes.
    Berserker - Warrior
    Warlock - Necromancer
    Warden - Guardian
    Duelist - Thief

    Lets see if we can link the other ones aswell, I don't see whats so illogical about it tho.
    Warden is a RANGER using WHIRLING DEFENSE, the other ones you have nailed on the head though...

    Should a mesmer use 2 pistols? NO, they're casters/duelists, why would a caster want to use a pistol in their main hand ever? It's completely illogical... And as for theifs using dual swords, the reason they don't is for the same reason a ranger doesn't, a dagger makes a far better off hand melee weapon with a sword then 2 swords... for starters, swords aren't very light, and when you're jumping and rolling, and doing all sorts of acrobatics you don't want that other sword weighing you down, they're also pretty big which would make the acrobatics both a ranger and a theif do very difficult..

    Now Drakwurrum you're going to be like "RAWRZ Mesmers use 2 swords RAGE" yes, they do, but they don't dive and weave and flip with every one of their attacks, they spend their entire time creating illusions to confuse the enemy as they just kinda flail their main handed sword infront of them to eventually kill what they're attacking, and riposte/parry with their off hand one. In layman's terms, main hand sword is used for offense, offhand is used to parry because mesmers don't flip and roll all over the place, the most they do is make illusions to confuse the enemy.
    Quote Originally Posted by draykorinee View Post
    Youre in the mmo forums and you find mmos boring, Im heading on over to the twilight forums to add my unecessary and shallow 2 cents.

  6. #246
    The Lightbringer Pud'n's Avatar
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    Love the fact that this thread is slowly catching up to the lead "Thief Discussion" thread. But please just try to keep the flaming down to a minimal.

    I already have my rape-shoes on, and I'm putting on my rape-gloves as we speak. If I have to put on my rape-tutu on, then shitz about to get real .
    Last edited by Pud'n; 2012-03-05 at 01:10 AM.

  7. #247
    Quote Originally Posted by Durzlla View Post
    Warden is a RANGER using WHIRLING DEFENSE, the other ones you have nailed on the head though...
    I stand corrected.
    I simply went with the description of the skill on that one:
    ""Create a phantasm that attacks your target and creates a defensive bubble, protecting itself and allies from projectiles. ""
    sounded like a guardian to me.

  8. #248
    Quote Originally Posted by DrakeWurrum View Post
    and at this point you're just arguing against me for the sake of arguing.
    I disagree. lol.

    Quote Originally Posted by DrakeWurrum View Post
    It is absolutely a problem, it's just not a mechanics problem - it's a design/concept problem. It's only logical to be sure that the illusions a Mesmer summons are wielding weapons that the Mesmer can actually wield. Mesmers right now don't know how to use a pistol in the main-hand, or at least choose not to and as such are unfamiliar with the combat style - summoning an illusion that does dual-wield pistols is not something a Mesmer would do, because it's not something the Mesmer himself does. It's not about being tricky or deceiving (obviously, phantasm), but the simple fact that the Mesmer does not dual-wield pistols. He's imparting a skill that he does not possess on an illusionary version of himself, even if that illusionary version is glowing pink and transparent. At least when he summons a phantasm with a greatsword, the phantasm has just a basic "IMA SWINGING MY SWORD GET OUTTA DA WAY" idea behind it and, above all else, it's still a greatsword.

    I'd be perfectly happy if they just changed it to be wielding a single pistol, or matching the mesmer's X/Pistol set, but I see no reason to NOT go the other way. The Scepter skill set would work completely different from the Pistol skill set, while also giving players an entirely new flavor of combat to play with.
    Honestly, how is a Mesmer capable of performing a "trick shot" with his off-hand pistol, but doesn't have the knowledge, skill, or training to just plain fire it normally? From the other hand even?

    Illogical design is always a problem.
    Alright I'll spell it out for you, plainly. There's a trait tree right now that works on a concept already made up by Anet. If they added 1handed Pistols to mainhand it would upset the balance because they would have to implement ways for it to work in the trait trees. 2H Sword spec in Domination, 1H Sword in Dueling, Staves in Chaos, Scepter in Illusions and the offhands in Inspiration. There's no balance if you add yet another mainhand weapon to the mix. Sure it'd be cool. Sure it even makes sense at a design/concept point of view. But for the sake of PVP it'll be definitely considered broken.

    Just think about it. Adding Pistols MH would mean you have to play a certain way. Plan on using a Pistol? Oh too bad it's in the Domination tree so you can't use Staves now since it'll be gimped. So on and so forth. The only option would to put the Pistol traits in the last trait trees, Inspiration, which is currently now buffing offhands. That tree also gives +healing, which doesn't benefits a gunslinger.(Right now the only pistol related trait is in Dueling adding range to pistol attacks which makes sense since the tree also gives Precision).

    How's that for logic?

    I mean, with a massive rework to the class and removal of other main hands Anet can probably make it work. But why would they even bother? Oh, because a Phantasm can do it! /sarcasm. It's easier to change the sprite model. On a another note. It stands to reason that if a Mesmer can duplicate itself into a phantasmal form, what's from stopping him from duplicating a gun in both hands? It's only logical.

    Now can we stop this silly rant about MH pistols and just accept it and move on?
    Last edited by nighties; 2012-03-05 at 01:08 PM.

  9. #249
    The Insane DrakeWurrum's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by nighties View Post
    Adding Pistols MH would mean you have to play a certain way. Plan on using a Pistol? Oh too bad it's in the Domination tree so you can't use Staves now since it'll be gimped. So on and so forth.
    That's a flaw with the traits they currently have in the beta, not a flaw with weapon choices. The fact that they have ANY traits tied to ANY weapons is bad design.
    I hope you haven't forgotten my role in this little story. I'm the leading man. You know what they say about the leading man? He never dies.

    If you give in to your impulses in this world, the price is that it changes your personality in the real world. The player and character are one and the same.

  10. #250
    Quote Originally Posted by DrakeWurrum View Post
    That's a flaw with the traits they currently have in the beta, not a flaw with weapon choices. The fact that they have ANY traits tied to ANY weapons is bad design.


    Post constructively
    Last edited by Bloodhunter; 2012-03-05 at 02:23 PM.

  11. #251
    Quote Originally Posted by DrakeWurrum View Post
    That's a flaw with the traits they currently have in the beta, not a flaw with weapon choices. The fact that they have ANY traits tied to ANY weapons is bad design.
    You want to play a mesmer, but you want to play it as a thief as a ranged class dualwielding pistols.

    And your logic is incredibly flawed.

  12. #252
    The Insane DrakeWurrum's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by luedieniel View Post
    You want to play a mesmer, but you want to play it as a thief as a ranged class dualwielding pistols.

    And your logic is incredibly flawed.
    ...I don't want to play it as a Thief, no, but I do want to play it as a ranged class. The funny thing about firearms is that they're a ranged weapon that doesn't take a great amount of skill to use. How is that flawed logic?

    To add to that, the Mesmer's off-hand Pistol skills include "trick shot" which suggests that Mesmers actually have a lot of skill in using the pistol.
    I hope you haven't forgotten my role in this little story. I'm the leading man. You know what they say about the leading man? He never dies.

    If you give in to your impulses in this world, the price is that it changes your personality in the real world. The player and character are one and the same.

  13. #253
    Quote Originally Posted by luedieniel View Post
    You want to play a mesmer, but you want to play it as a thief as a ranged class dualwielding pistols.

    And your logic is incredibly flawed.
    +1

    If you want to play a certain way, you spec that way. There's no flaw with that trait design. The game gives you options nobody is telling you to spec a certain way. Though, that'll be the case if you added MH Pistols.

    The trait trees, as it stands right now, does this with EVERY class. A complete rework of the trait trees would mean a rework of the class abilities. I guarantee you won't be seeing GW2 in this year if that's what you want. All this because Phantasm can dual wield? Complete and utter asinine thinking. *flicks forehead*

    Quote Originally Posted by DrakeWurrum View Post
    ...I don't want to play it as a Thief, no, but I do want to play it as a ranged class. The funny thing about firearms is that they're a ranged weapon that doesn't take a great amount of skill to use. How is that flawed logic?

    To add to that, the Mesmer's off-hand Pistol skills include "trick shot" which suggests that Mesmers actually have a lot of skill in using the pistol.
    areyoufuckingkiddingme.jpg

  14. #254
    The Insane DrakeWurrum's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by nighties View Post
    The trait trees, as it stands right now, does this with EVERY class. A complete rework of the trait trees would mean a rework of the class abilities. I guarantee you won't be seeing GW2 in this year if that's what you want. All this because Phantasm can dual wield? Complete and utter asinine thinking. *flicks forehead*
    A: it is not because of Phantasms dual-wielding that I think this is bad design with the trait trees.
    B: It would not require a "complete rework" in the slightest, it would just require ANet to actually have creative traits besides "lol you do 5% more damage with this weapon type"
    I hope you haven't forgotten my role in this little story. I'm the leading man. You know what they say about the leading man? He never dies.

    If you give in to your impulses in this world, the price is that it changes your personality in the real world. The player and character are one and the same.

  15. #255
    Eh GW2 won't be for everyone. Tough luck bro

  16. #256
    The Insane DrakeWurrum's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by nighties View Post
    Eh GW2 won't be for everyone. Tough luck bro
    You are again 100% missing the point. You have spent this entire discussion trying to just dismiss my concerns and walk away, rather than actually see the point and talk about it, which says that you simply have no defense and can't come up with a real defense.

    Even the folks at Blizzard, despite all the mistakes they make, have recognized how unbelievably BORING it is to offer players a choice of +5% increased damage or slightly more chance to crit in customizing their builds.
    I hope you haven't forgotten my role in this little story. I'm the leading man. You know what they say about the leading man? He never dies.

    If you give in to your impulses in this world, the price is that it changes your personality in the real world. The player and character are one and the same.

  17. #257
    The Lightbringer Durzlla's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by DrakeWurrum View Post
    ...I don't want to play it as a Thief, no, but I do want to play it as a ranged class. The funny thing about firearms is that they're a ranged weapon that doesn't take a great amount of skill to use. How is that flawed logic?

    To add to that, the Mesmer's off-hand Pistol skills include "trick shot" which suggests that Mesmers actually have a lot of skill in using the pistol.
    Hmmm a magic using prof is able to make a bullet bounce between multiple people, maybe they're using *GASP!* magic?!? My god what a discovery!!

    I don't see how the traits aren't "unique" either just because the "if you use this weapon X happens" traits are there, you dot NEED to take those... And what would a Mesmer even do with a main hand pistol mr "Pistols must be a primary caster weapon"?
    Quote Originally Posted by draykorinee View Post
    Youre in the mmo forums and you find mmos boring, Im heading on over to the twilight forums to add my unecessary and shallow 2 cents.

  18. #258
    The Insane DrakeWurrum's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Durzlla View Post
    Hmmm a magic using prof is able to make a bullet bounce between multiple people, maybe they're using *GASP!* magic?!? My god what a discovery!!

    I don't see how the traits aren't "unique" either just because the "if you use this weapon X happens" traits are there, you dot NEED to take those... And what would a Mesmer even do with a main hand pistol mr "Pistols must be a primary caster weapon"?
    So you talk about a caster using magic to do fancy things with a pisol shot, but then make a big deal about a caster using a pistol? A caster that already does magic-only things with swords and greatswords?
    I hope you haven't forgotten my role in this little story. I'm the leading man. You know what they say about the leading man? He never dies.

    If you give in to your impulses in this world, the price is that it changes your personality in the real world. The player and character are one and the same.

  19. #259
    The Lightbringer Durzlla's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by DrakeWurrum View Post
    You are again 100% missing the point. You have spent this entire discussion trying to just dismiss my concerns and walk away, rather than actually see the point and talk about it, which says that you simply have no defense and can't come up with a real defense.

    Even the folks at Blizzard, despite all the mistakes they make, have recognized how unbelievably BORING it is to offer players a choice of +5% increased damage or slightly more chance to crit in customizing their builds.
    Yes but some people REALLY REALLy like those boring traits, and FYI, there's plenty of other traits to pick anet isn't holding you at gunpoint saying "You're wielding a pistol take the F***ing +5% damage increase!!
    Quote Originally Posted by draykorinee View Post
    Youre in the mmo forums and you find mmos boring, Im heading on over to the twilight forums to add my unecessary and shallow 2 cents.

  20. #260
    Quote Originally Posted by DrakeWurrum View Post
    You are again 100% missing the point. You have spent this entire discussion trying to just dismiss my concerns and walk away, rather than actually see the point and talk about it, which says that you simply have no defense and can't come up with a real defense.

    Even the folks at Blizzard, despite all the mistakes they make, have recognized how unbelievably BORING it is to offer players a choice of +5% increased damage or slightly more chance to crit in customizing their builds.
    Choices. Take your time, please, to actually look at that tree. Do yourself and the Mesmer thread a favour and actually look at it. And see that there are choices.

    I'm finished holding your hand lol it's really clammy :c

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