1. #261
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    Quote Originally Posted by Durzlla View Post
    Yes but some people REALLY REALLy like those boring traits, and FYI, there's plenty of other traits to pick anet isn't holding you at gunpoint saying "You're wielding a pistol take the F***ing +5% damage increase!!
    All the more proof that adding a main-hand pistol to the Mesmer wouldn't break the "balance" they have supposedly already built up with traits.

    There are very few traits that actually are weapon-specific, and there's no actual evidence saying that you are forced to go into the trait lines associated with those weapon-specific traits.

    Some weapons don't even have traits specifically associated with them.
    Last edited by DrakeWurrum; 2012-03-05 at 03:12 PM.
    I hope you haven't forgotten my role in this little story. I'm the leading man. You know what they say about the leading man? He never dies.

    If you give in to your impulses in this world, the price is that it changes your personality in the real world. The player and character are one and the same.

  2. #262
    The Lightbringer Durzlla's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by DrakeWurrum View Post
    So you talk about a caster using magic to do fancy things with a pisol shot, but then make a big deal about a caster using a pistol? A caster that already does magic-only things with swords and greatswords?
    Actually with swords they magic illusions appear and the flail the sword infront of them to attempt to kill things/parry (off hand) I just don't see what they could do with a pistol that they can't do already with the scepter

    ---------- Post added 2012-03-05 at 09:12 AM ----------

    Quote Originally Posted by DrakeWurrum View Post
    All the more proof that adding a main-hand pistol to the Mesmer wouldn't break the "balance" they have supposedly already built up with traits.
    Pffft break the tree? Why would adding a weapon break the tree? They already have an "increase range of all pistol abilities" trait they woulnt need to even change anything!
    Quote Originally Posted by draykorinee View Post
    Youre in the mmo forums and you find mmos boring, Im heading on over to the twilight forums to add my unecessary and shallow 2 cents.

  3. #263
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    Quote Originally Posted by Durzlla View Post
    Pffft break the tree? Why would adding a weapon break the tree? They already have an "increase range of all pistol abilities" trait they woulnt need to even change anything!
    Exactly. Traits wouldn't need to be changed at all.
    I hope you haven't forgotten my role in this little story. I'm the leading man. You know what they say about the leading man? He never dies.

    If you give in to your impulses in this world, the price is that it changes your personality in the real world. The player and character are one and the same.

  4. #264
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    Quote Originally Posted by DrakeWurrum View Post
    Exactly. Traits wouldn't need to be changed at all.
    My argument isn't "don't do it you'll break the game" its "I don't see hat a main hand pistol will bring that other weapons already do" if they find something for pistols to bring that's fancy and unique and mesmery by all means add it, still think they should give a thief another weapon or let them have 5 skills with a 1h sword of they have no off hand (to add some uniqueness)Before adding more weapons to the other profs
    Quote Originally Posted by draykorinee View Post
    Youre in the mmo forums and you find mmos boring, Im heading on over to the twilight forums to add my unecessary and shallow 2 cents.

  5. #265
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    Quote Originally Posted by Durzlla View Post
    Actually with swords they magic illusions appear and the flail the sword infront of them to attempt to kill things/parry (off hand) I just don't see what they could do with a pistol that they can't do already with the scepter
    That's easy, actually.

    For starters, the Scepter has a chain-attack for it's spam ability. The Pistol wouldn't have that - no pistol auto-attack does. The other pistol main-hands apply bleeding. It would be easiest to just copy that, but the tricksy Mesmer might do something more inspired by applying a single stack of Confusion with each spam pistol shot. The Scepter attacks do that, however, so maybe there could be some other condition. Fear? Weakness? Maybe the auto-attack spam will be similar to the trick-shot, by bouncing between targets, but without applying any kind of condition?
    The second Mesmer skill would have to summon clones - every Mesmer main-hand as one of these (except the Sword having two). I would picture it as some kind of strafing move, so it would "evade" and summon a clone, while circle-strafing - or perhaps instead while teleporting? Or stealthing? That's a Mesmer trick indeed!
    Being that the Mesmer typically lacks multiple-target abilities, I could imagine the third skill for main-hand pistol to be some kind of multiple-shot cone attack. Perhaps it even applies a Chill or Blind effect. Perhaps it's even a targeted AoE attack that summons two clones in it's damaging area, while Blinding the affected targets?

    One alternative would be to mimic the sword's skillset, but with ranged abilities. Perhaps the second skill summons a clone and then strafes, while the third strafes and then summons a clone. Not the most inspired choice, but it is an option. And these moves, unlike the main-hand Sword, would be about avoiding the enemy while summoning clones, not about gap-closing.

    Another alternative would be to use no clones at all with the Pistol - again something that no other Mesmer weapon does - and rely entirely on utilities/traits for clones. While not everybody would like that, I have noticed people complaining that they'd love to try having a Mesmer build not reliant on illusions.
    Which means both the second and third skill, imo, would be about hitting multiple targets, and applying conditions that help the Mesmer stay alive (Weakness, Blind, Chill, Cripple, etc etc).

    I imagine Anet could be more imaginative than me.
    Last edited by DrakeWurrum; 2012-03-05 at 03:36 PM.
    I hope you haven't forgotten my role in this little story. I'm the leading man. You know what they say about the leading man? He never dies.

    If you give in to your impulses in this world, the price is that it changes your personality in the real world. The player and character are one and the same.

  6. #266
    The Lightbringer Durzlla's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by DrakeWurrum View Post
    That's easy, actually.

    For starters, the Scepter has a chain-attack for it's spam ability. The Pistol wouldn't have that - no pistol auto-attack does. The other pistol main-hands apply bleeding. It would be easiest to just copy that, but the tricksy Mesmer might do something more inspired by applying a single stack of Confusion with each spam pistol shot. The Scepter attacks do that, however, so maybe there could be some other condition. Fear? Weakness? Maybe the auto-attack spam will be similar to the trick-shot, by bouncing between targets, but without applying any kind of condition?
    The second Mesmer skill would have to summon clones - every Mesmer main-hand as one of these (except the Sword having two). I would picture it as some kind of strafing move, so it would "evade" and summon a clone, while circle-strafing - or perhaps instead while teleporting? Or stealthing? That's a Mesmer trick indeed!
    Being that the Mesmer typically lacks multiple-target abilities, I could imagine the third skill for main-hand pistol to be some kind of multiple-shot cone attack. Perhaps it even applies a Chill or Blind effect. Perhaps it's even a targeted AoE attack that summons two clones in it's damaging area, while Blinding the affected targets?

    One alternative would be to mimic the sword's skillset, but with ranged abilities. Perhaps the second skill summons a clone and then strafes, while the third strafes and then summons a clone. Not the most inspired choice, but it is an option.

    Another alternative would be to use no clones at all with the Pistol - again something that no other Mesmer weapon does - and rely entirely on utilities/traits for clones. While not everybody would like that, I have noticed people complaining that they'd love to try having a Mesmer build not reliant on illusions.
    Which means both the second and third skill, imo, would be about hitting multiple targets.

    I imagine Anet could be more imaginative than me.
    Lol for some reason when you said the coin attack I though of Miss Fortubes barrage attack in league of legends but with 2 Mesmer clones on either side

    I wouldn't be surprised if we see mesmers duel wielding pistols in the future but I'm not sure we will at launch, a long as they make it work I'd be fine with it
    Quote Originally Posted by draykorinee View Post
    Youre in the mmo forums and you find mmos boring, Im heading on over to the twilight forums to add my unecessary and shallow 2 cents.

  7. #267
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    Quote Originally Posted by Durzlla View Post
    Lol for some reason when you said the coin attack I though of Miss Fortubes barrage attack in league of legends but with 2 Mesmer clones on either side

    I wouldn't be surprised if we see mesmers duel wielding pistols in the future but I'm not sure we will at launch, a long as they make it work I'd be fine with it
    Not before Thieves getting to dual-wield Swords, at least, eh?
    I hope you haven't forgotten my role in this little story. I'm the leading man. You know what they say about the leading man? He never dies.

    If you give in to your impulses in this world, the price is that it changes your personality in the real world. The player and character are one and the same.

  8. #268
    The Lightbringer Durzlla's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by DrakeWurrum View Post
    Not before Thieves getting to dual-wield Swords, at least, eh?
    I kinda wanna see em with an off hand mace so they can bludgeon people over the head lol
    Quote Originally Posted by draykorinee View Post
    Youre in the mmo forums and you find mmos boring, Im heading on over to the twilight forums to add my unecessary and shallow 2 cents.

  9. #269
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    Quote Originally Posted by Durzlla View Post
    I kinda wanna see em with an off hand mace so they can bludgeon people over the head lol
    I dunno. One of the things I disliked about WoW was the direction they took with Rogues being willing to wield any weapon at any time.

    I would instead love to see Thieves gain a "thrown weapon" set, the way Rangers can dual-wield axes... but throw the axes. I suppose that would mean two weapon sets based off daggers, though, which might be unbalancing.

    On that note... what about a Mesmer that magically "juggles" daggers? There's some crazy possibilities with this profession.
    Or maybe instead juggling Torches...
    Last edited by DrakeWurrum; 2012-03-05 at 03:49 PM.
    I hope you haven't forgotten my role in this little story. I'm the leading man. You know what they say about the leading man? He never dies.

    If you give in to your impulses in this world, the price is that it changes your personality in the real world. The player and character are one and the same.

  10. #270
    Quote Originally Posted by DrakeWurrum View Post
    -snip-
    And all along this, we've already explained why the mesmer shouldn't have a mainhand pistol and why the phantasm can have dualwielded pistols just fine.

    Also no, the mesmer doesn't need more weapons.

  11. #271
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    Quote Originally Posted by luedieniel View Post
    And all along this, we've already explained why the mesmer shouldn't have a mainhand pistol and why the phantasm can have dualwielded pistols just fine.
    No, you have not. You have come up with excuses that, plain and simple, are not reasons.

    "it would bring nothing unique"
    How do you know? There's lots of things that Mesmer weapons don't have and don't do, that ANet could easily put into a main-hand pistol.

    "mesmers are casters, pistols don't make sense"
    Same can be said of sword and greatsword, yet those are in.

    "it would make them like the thief"
    No, it wouldn't, because the skills would be different

    "it would ruin the traits"
    No, it wouldn't - there's already one trait that affects pistols, no more would need to be added, and not all the traits are finished anyways
    I hope you haven't forgotten my role in this little story. I'm the leading man. You know what they say about the leading man? He never dies.

    If you give in to your impulses in this world, the price is that it changes your personality in the real world. The player and character are one and the same.

  12. #272
    In other news

    This is my mesmer build.

    Primarily a range DoT spec, playing keep-away with Portal, Decoy, and Prestige. Main point of the build is to retain as much health as I can possibly have to take advantage of the 2nd minor trait within chaos, "50+ toughness while above 90% health", compounded with the 3rd minor in the same trait tree, Chaotic Transference ("10% of your toughness is given as a bonus to conditional damage".)

    All the while keeping as many mes-moi's up as possible, adding more toughness.

    This is my anti-melee build and can also stand toe-to-toe with casters with plenty of confusion spells to work with (while also having the health and toughness to live through their attacks).

    I chose Signet of Domination and Moa Morph because my spec lacks an interrupt for when the enemy heals/casts a really burst-heavy spell.

    Fight rotation (lol bare with me):
    1)Start off fight in Staff opening with Portal entrance, follow up with Duplicate and start getting off as many Conditions as I can with Chaos Strike/Storm
    - If the enemy gets close, cast Winds of Chaos to get the extra boons off
    2)Cast Illusionary Warlock
    -By now I should have 2 (if the enemy hasn't killed any) Illusions up
    3)Switch weapon to Scepter/Torch
    4)If the enemy if putting too much pressure on me, Prestige and cloak while casting Illusionary Counter
    -If the enemy is derping and lost track of me, confuse them with Ether bolt/Illusionary Mage and resummon any illusions I may have lost
    5)Do this till their HP gets depleted. Shatter for burst damage
    6)Use Portal/Decoy for emergencies.
    7)Signet/Moa Morph only if Shatter: Diversion is on CD and/or out of range

    Any thoughts? :3
    Last edited by nighties; 2012-03-05 at 05:36 PM.

  13. #273
    Quote Originally Posted by DrakeWurrum View Post
    -snip-
    You chose to ignore where I explained how the phantasms work, your entire argument stands and falls with your claim that 'it is not logical to have a phantasm with dualwield when the mesmer can't".

    Go back 1-2 pages, read the post, I'm way too fed up with facepalming in your general direction.

  14. #274
    The Lightbringer Durzlla's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by luedieniel View Post
    You chose to ignore where I explained how the phantasms work, your entire argument stands and falls with your claim that 'it is not logical to have a phantasm with dualwield when the mesmer can't".

    Go back 1-2 pages, read the post, I'm way too fed up with facepalming in your general direction.
    To be fair, his argument has changed a bit from "phantasams can do it so we should too"
    Quote Originally Posted by draykorinee View Post
    Youre in the mmo forums and you find mmos boring, Im heading on over to the twilight forums to add my unecessary and shallow 2 cents.

  15. #275
    Quote Originally Posted by Durzlla View Post
    Pffft break the tree? Why would adding a weapon break the tree? They already have an "increase range of all pistol abilities" trait they woulnt need to even change anything!
    Read.


    Please don't give DrakeWurrum more incentive be wrong. Adding another mainhand would absolutely break the tree.

    Every weapon right now is in its respective trait tree. Meaning, if you spec full Chaos, Staves will be your weapon of choice since it gives +modifiers. This is, of course, if you plan to min-max your toon.

    Quote Originally Posted by DrakeWurrum View Post
    That's a flaw with the traits they currently have in the beta, not a flaw with weapon choices. The fact that they have ANY traits tied to ANY weapons is bad design.
    Quote Originally Posted by DrakeWurrum View Post
    Exactly. Traits wouldn't need to be changed at all.
    First he argues the trait tree is flawed now he says it doesn't need to be changed. Who's arguing for the sake of arguing? lol
    Last edited by nighties; 2012-03-05 at 07:58 PM.

  16. #276
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    Quote Originally Posted by luedieniel View Post
    You chose to ignore where I explained how the phantasms work, your entire argument stands and falls with your claim that 'it is not logical to have a phantasm with dualwield when the mesmer can't".

    Go back 1-2 pages, read the post, I'm way too fed up with facepalming in your general direction.
    I ignored it because it's a completely ridiculous argument.

    Quote Originally Posted by luedieniel View Post
    As for "illogical design" however, take a glance at the other "phantasms" the mesmer can summon, most of the summons are pretty much the other classes.
    Berserker - Warrior
    Warlock - Necromancer
    Warden - Guardian
    Duelist - Thief

    Lets see if we can link the other ones aswell, I don't see whats so illogical about it tho.
    Warlock: It auto-attacks with a staff, and does more damage the more conditions you have on the target. It's a mesmer wielding a staff, not a necromancer.
    Warden: http://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Mirrored_Feedback Doesn't even need to be the exact same skill, mesmers understand the basic concept behind it. Being that it's attached to the Focus, I fully expect a Warden to be wielding a Scepter and Focus.
    Duelist: This is the specific case I am wanting to correct. You're aware that one of the mesmer trait lines is dueling? http://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Dueling
    It's a mesmer dual-wielding pistols.
    Berserker: It's still a mesmer wielding a greatsword, and it's another situation I'd like to correct, honestly. I'd rather see this phantasm spamming spatial surge, or spamming a knockback skill or something that actually fits the mesmer.
    Either way, it's clearly a stretch of the imagination to picture somebody wildly flailing about with a greatsword, hrm? /snicker

    Quote Originally Posted by Durzlla View Post
    Warden is a RANGER using WHIRLING DEFENSE, the other ones you have nailed on the head though...
    I've actually never seen a video where somebody used the Warden. The wording of the skill sounds like the phantasm summons a big-ass magical bubble, so having it be a ranger-themed phantasm would just be weird. O_o

    Create a phantasm that attacks your target and creates a defensive bubble, protecting itself and allies from projectiles.


    ---------- Post added 2012-03-05 at 01:57 PM ----------

    Quote Originally Posted by nighties View Post
    Read.


    Please don't give DrakeWurrum more incentive be wrong. Adding another mainhand would absolutely break the tree.

    Every weapon right now is in its respective trait tree. Meaning, if you spec full Chaos, Staves will be your weapon of choice since it gives +modifiers. This is, of course, if you plan to min-max your toon.
    Staves would not be gimped just because you chose not to take the ONE trait that pertains to staves. Funny thing about Staff builds is that you're not forced to take the Staff trait if your particular playstyle has you favoring another build.

    That one trait you are so worried about "gimping" you only accounts for 50 toughness. Big freaking deal. You can replace that benefit with some other kind of benefit, easily, that fits just fine with the playstyle you choose.
    Last edited by DrakeWurrum; 2012-03-05 at 08:13 PM.
    I hope you haven't forgotten my role in this little story. I'm the leading man. You know what they say about the leading man? He never dies.

    If you give in to your impulses in this world, the price is that it changes your personality in the real world. The player and character are one and the same.

  17. #277
    Quote Originally Posted by DrakeWurrum View Post
    Staves would not be gimped just because you chose not to take the ONE trait that pertains to staves. Funny thing about Staff builds is that you're not forced to take the Staff trait if your particular playstyle has you favoring another build.

    That one trait you are so worried about "gimping" you only accounts for 50 toughness. Big freaking deal. You can replace that benefit with some other kind of benefit, easily, that fits just fine with the playstyle you choose.
    It's gimped meaning it won't be at its full potential. Min-maxing mean anything to you? 50 toughness is absolutely a big deal. By going full Chaos you're given 300 Toughness. Do the math.

    Sure you can replace that trait with anything else. You're just gimping staves in the long run, like I stated. Adding another MH weapon to any tree means whatever weapon that tree was intended for, won't be able to reach its intended potential.

  18. #278
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    Quote Originally Posted by nighties View Post
    It's gimped meaning it won't be at its full potential. Min-maxing mean anything to you? 50 toughness is absolutely a big deal. By going full Chaos you're given 300 Toughness. Do the math.
    You're assuming, incorrectly, that it's full potential includes that 50 toughness. Or that other builds won't make up for that 50 toughness.

    A dev has said there will be 12 traits in each trait line, so don't bother trying to bring up specific examples using beta information. The trait system is very incomplete and very much in flux right now.
    I hope you haven't forgotten my role in this little story. I'm the leading man. You know what they say about the leading man? He never dies.

    If you give in to your impulses in this world, the price is that it changes your personality in the real world. The player and character are one and the same.

  19. #279
    Quote Originally Posted by DrakeWurrum View Post
    You're assuming, incorrectly, that it's full potential includes that 50 toughness. Or that other builds won't make up for that 50 toughness.

    A dev has said there will be 12 traits in each trait line, so don't bother trying to bring up specific examples using beta information. The trait system is very incomplete and very much in flux right now.
    You know I'm actually hoping you're right and that we'll see more traits. But until you can bring up concrete evidence that states otherwise, I'm going with what I know to be fact. The changes can mean anything or could reinforce my belief on each Tree pairing up with specific weapons. But anything can happen by release.

    You could be seeing a dual wielding pistol slinging Mesmer but I wouldn't hold my breath. But like I said so many pages ago, none of us has actually got a chance to be in the beta to test any of this out. The class may need another strong range weapon or it may not. The press certainly left much to be desired, both from their end and Anets.

  20. #280
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    Quote Originally Posted by nighties View Post
    You know I'm actually hoping you're right and that we'll see more traits. But until you can bring up concrete evidence that states otherwise, I'm going with what I know to be fact. The changes can mean anything or could reinforce my belief on each Tree pairing up with specific weapons. But anything can happen by release.
    And until you bring up cold hard evidence that not having that extra 50 toughness gimps staff mesmers, I'm going to believe otherwise. Especially since ANet has long been a proponent of freedom of choice and "playing your way"
    I hope you haven't forgotten my role in this little story. I'm the leading man. You know what they say about the leading man? He never dies.

    If you give in to your impulses in this world, the price is that it changes your personality in the real world. The player and character are one and the same.

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