1. #281
    Quote Originally Posted by DrakeWurrum View Post
    I ignored it because it's a completely ridiculous argument.
    Yes, because any explanation that does not fit your own thesis of how the mesmer should be played is presented, it must be completely ridiculous.
    I mean just look at it here, right now:

    "A mesmer should be able to dualwield pistols because the phantasm summoned with "illusionary Duelist" can dualwield them.
    Now when presented with the following: All the other classes are present as phantasms and the skill used by said Duelist is the following:


    Unload
    4 Initiative cost
    Profession
    Thief
    Weapon
    Main-hand pistol
    Off-hand pistol
    Type
    Dual skill
    Combo
    Finisher (Projectile)

    it is entirely understandable why you would find the argument silly, considering you yourself have brought strong arguments such as "The class has a line of traits called 'Duelist'" and the aforementioned "summon can use it, I should too".

    I'm pretty much done tho, We've presented a couple of perfectly viable reasons as to why the mesmer should not use dualwield pistols and you've yet to actually argue against these.

    I'm fairly certain that the trait trees will be more aimed towards certain weapons because if they don't they'll end up being abit too 'general', however I'll await the larger beta before saying anything further on this subject.

  2. #282
    Quote Originally Posted by DrakeWurrum View Post
    You're assuming, incorrectly, that it's full potential includes that 50 toughness. Or that other builds won't make up for that 50 toughness.

    A dev has said there will be 12 traits in each trait line, so don't bother trying to bring up specific examples using beta information. The trait system is very incomplete and very much in flux right now.
    Quote Originally Posted by DrakeWurrum View Post
    And until you bring up cold hard evidence that not having that extra 50 toughness gimps staff mesmers, I'm going to believe otherwise. Especially since ANet has long been a proponent of freedom of choice and "playing your way"
    Care to post the completed trait tree? Again you fail to provide any evidence at all. If and when the trait tree changes, I will re-evaluate my assessment of the Mesmer's trait tree. As it stands right now, each tree is meant for a specific weapon. A 2hander great sword for instance will want raw Power, that's why its tree in Domination complements that. It also synergizes with its abilities well since it's all about burst and range combat. Staves, however, doesn't rely on burst but slow DoTs, relying heavily more on defense and illusions. etc etc.

    I reply with what information is readily available. I don't pretend "oh what if Mesmers can wield x_weapon and lets make up made up abilities for it!". All your argument is based on phantasms, an illusion created by the Mesmer, being able to wield 2 pistols. What a joke lol
    Last edited by nighties; 2012-03-05 at 09:13 PM.

  3. #283
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    Quote Originally Posted by luedieniel View Post
    We've presented a couple of perfectly viable reasons
    That's a very subjective opinion.
    I hope you haven't forgotten my role in this little story. I'm the leading man. You know what they say about the leading man? He never dies.

    If you give in to your impulses in this world, the price is that it changes your personality in the real world. The player and character are one and the same.

  4. #284
    The Lightbringer Durzlla's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by DrakeWurrum View Post
    I ignored it because it's a completely ridiculous argument.


    Warlock: It auto-attacks with a staff, and does more damage the more conditions you have on the target. It's a mesmer wielding a staff, not a necromancer.
    Warden: http://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Mirrored_Feedback Doesn't even need to be the exact same skill, mesmers understand the basic concept behind it. Being that it's attached to the Focus, I fully expect a Warden to be wielding a Scepter and Focus.
    Duelist: This is the specific case I am wanting to correct. You're aware that one of the mesmer trait lines is dueling? http://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Dueling
    It's a mesmer dual-wielding pistols.
    Berserker: It's still a mesmer wielding a greatsword, and it's another situation I'd like to correct, honestly. I'd rather see this phantasm spamming spatial surge, or spamming a knockback skill or something that actually fits the mesmer.
    Either way, it's clearly a stretch of the imagination to picture somebody wildly flailing about with a greatsword, hrm? /snicker


    I've actually never seen a video where somebody used the Warden. The wording of the skill sounds like the phantasm summons a big-ass magical bubble, so having it be a ranger-themed phantasm would just be weird. O_o
    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9V6Ckj6--Z0

    It's a little after 7minute mark, they also said in the reddit Q&A that the illusionary warden would use axes and use whirling defense to reflect enemy projectiles, the image of the warden isn't great in the video, but it's pretty clear to see that it is doing the same animation as the rangers whirling defense animation, which can be seen on the ranger prof page on their website.
    Quote Originally Posted by draykorinee View Post
    Youre in the mmo forums and you find mmos boring, Im heading on over to the twilight forums to add my unecessary and shallow 2 cents.

  5. #285
    The Insane DrakeWurrum's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by nighties View Post
    Care to post the completed trait tree? Again you fail to provide any evidence at all. If and when the trait tree changes, I will re-evaluate my assessment of the Mesmer's trait tree. As it stands right now, each tree is meant for a specific weapon. A 2hander great sword for instance will want raw Power, that's why its tree in Domination complements that. It also synergizes with its abilities well since it's all about burst and range combat. Staves, however, doesn't rely on burst but slow DoTs, relying heavily more on defense and illusions. etc etc.
    You haven't provided any evidence to support any of these claims. Wait, beta videos? Should I go support claims about a current, say, LoL build using LoL beta footage?

    It's also absolutely hilarious that you talk about staves relying on DoT damage type stuff, despite the fact that *nothing* in the Chaos line supports condition damage. (except for the third minor trait, so that +50 toughness when wielding a staff only helps provide an extra 5 Malice)

    ---------- Post added 2012-03-05 at 03:30 PM ----------

    Quote Originally Posted by Durzlla View Post
    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9V6Ckj6--Z0

    It's a little after 7minute mark, they also said in the reddit Q&A that the illusionary warden would use axes and use whirling defense to reflect enemy projectiles, the image of the warden isn't great in the video, but it's pretty clear to see that it is doing the same animation as the rangers whirling defense animation, which can be seen on the ranger prof page on their website.
    Weird. They should re-word that skill, instead of saying it summons a defensive bubble. O_o
    Last edited by DrakeWurrum; 2012-03-05 at 09:32 PM.
    I hope you haven't forgotten my role in this little story. I'm the leading man. You know what they say about the leading man? He never dies.

    If you give in to your impulses in this world, the price is that it changes your personality in the real world. The player and character are one and the same.

  6. #286
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    Quote Originally Posted by nighties View Post
    Read.


    Please don't give DrakeWurrum more incentive be wrong. Adding another mainhand would absolutely break the tree.

    Every weapon right now is in its respective trait tree. Meaning, if you spec full Chaos, Staves will be your weapon of choice since it gives +modifiers. This is, of course, if you plan to min-max your toon.
    Um, who the hell would want to min/max in toughness? That just seems like a horrible idea because it'd mean giving up any sort of damage you'd be able to do effectively making you worthless.... And i don't plan on taking a single weapon skill in any of my builds other then maybe the CD reduction for warhorn in the ranger Beast Master trait, but that's because those things have an ungodly long CD and i'd like to be able to call a swarm of birds more then once every hour or so (yes i know that's an exaggeration don't bring it up)

    ---------- Post added 2012-03-05 at 03:34 PM ----------

    Quote Originally Posted by DrakeWurrum View Post
    Weird. They should re-word that skill, instead of saying it summons a defensive bubble. O_o
    Meh, it makes sense to me, whirling defense is essentially a defensive bubble of sexy awesome ranger powers, which the illusion does do.... and i could see it saying "Summons an illusion that whirls axes to block projectiles and deal damage to nearby enemies" to be a bit misleading in the abilities purpose...
    Quote Originally Posted by draykorinee View Post
    Youre in the mmo forums and you find mmos boring, Im heading on over to the twilight forums to add my unecessary and shallow 2 cents.

  7. #287
    Quote Originally Posted by DrakeWurrum View Post
    You haven't provided any evidence to support any of these claims. Wait, beta videos? Should I go support claims about a current, say, LoL build using LoL beta footage?

    It's also absolutely hilarious that you talk about staves relying on DoT damage type stuff, despite the fact that *nothing* in the Chaos line supports condition damage. (except for the third minor trait, so that +50 toughness when wielding a staff only helps provide an extra 5 Malice)
    When there's no other info out you go with what's available. Can you post any GW2 release info? No, cause the game isn't out.

    I'm glad you're laughing at your own ignorance. 10% of your toughness is converted to conditional damage, as you've stated. Speccing full Chaos gives you 300 toughness. Plus 50 wielding a staff. Plus 120 for 3 clones out. Do the math. Read the trait tree, seriously.

    Quote Originally Posted by Durzlla View Post
    Um, who the hell would want to min/max in toughness? That just seems like a horrible idea because it'd mean giving up any sort of damage you'd be able to do effectively making you worthless....
    You should have a read.

    While not having raw output as, say, greatsword. Chaos tree makes up for it with survivability and sustain damage
    Last edited by nighties; 2012-03-05 at 09:52 PM.

  8. #288
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    Quote Originally Posted by nighties View Post
    Do the math.
    I've done the math. You haven't. You're, again, making assumptions that a staff mesmer will be gimped without that 47 Malice.

    Fun fact 1: Power will affect condition damage too.
    Fun fact 2: Increasing condition duration increases the damage you do with conditions (assuming extra ticks means extra damage, rather than making the damage take longer to apply).

    My point being that there are alternatives that can easily match or surpass a laughable 47 Malice.
    Last edited by DrakeWurrum; 2012-03-05 at 10:05 PM.
    I hope you haven't forgotten my role in this little story. I'm the leading man. You know what they say about the leading man? He never dies.

    If you give in to your impulses in this world, the price is that it changes your personality in the real world. The player and character are one and the same.

  9. #289
    Quote Originally Posted by DrakeWurrum View Post
    I've done the math. You haven't. You're, again, making assumptions that a staff mesmer will be gimped without that 47 Malice. Fun fact: Power will affect condition damage too.
    Going down Domination, a tree that offers 50+ power for using Great Swords and none for Staves. It's clear which one will out perform the other. The Staff skills synergizes with Chaos. And vice versa. Just look at the 2nd minor in Domination. Now where will we find a staff that will also daze another target? Oh right, we can't. Or any other weapon for that matter. Seriously read the damn trait tree I'm tired of repeating this. It's clear you're just being ignorant on the facts and choose to ignore it. It's like arguing with a wall here.

    Build the mesmer any way you want. Fortunately for us, that means a lot of fodder in PVP. Sure, there's lots of ways Anet lets you play. This means a lot of wrong ways too. I'll enjoy seeing your PVP videos

    Quote Originally Posted by DrakeWurrum View Post
    My point being that there are alternatives that can easily match or surpass a laughable 47 Malice.
    And that is why we're given 40 extra points to play with. I'm glad you understand the concept of numbers
    Last edited by nighties; 2012-03-05 at 10:13 PM.

  10. #290
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    Quote Originally Posted by nighties View Post
    When there's no other info out you go with what's available. Can you post any GW2 release info? No, cause the game isn't out.

    I'm glad you're laughing at your own ignorance. 10% of your toughness is converted to conditional damage, as you've stated. Speccing full Chaos gives you 300 toughness. Plus 50 wielding a staff. Plus 120 for 3 clones out. Do the math. Read the trait tree, seriously.



    You should have a read.

    While not having raw output as, say, greatsword. Chaos tree makes up for it with survivability and sustain damage
    Can you stop linking me to posts you've posted that i've already read? And you wont have that much more survivability, all toughness does it make it so you take less damage per hit, and no, not % just flat out X damage per hit, that means big attacks will still rock you into next week and you still wont be doing that much damage, not to mention conditions would still do their full damage.... so, i don't really see how relying so heavily on toughness for both your damage and defense is such a great idea...
    Quote Originally Posted by draykorinee View Post
    Youre in the mmo forums and you find mmos boring, Im heading on over to the twilight forums to add my unecessary and shallow 2 cents.

  11. #291
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    Quote Originally Posted by nighties View Post
    Going down Domination, a tree that offers 50+ power for using Great Swords and none for Staves. It's clear which one will out perform the other.
    The Domination tree can provide +300 Power and +300 to condition duration, without accounting for that one greatsword trait. You're the one who was making a big deal about the +300 Toughness just from putting points into Chaos, so I thought you already knew that. Since we only know half of the total major traits from Domination, we have no idea just what sort of build will favor a staff.

    The fact that the Minor traits don't favor a staff means jack shit, since the entire class is balanced around having two weapon sets. You are fully expected to switch to Greatsword when you need a Daze or a Stun.

    In addition: Mantra of Daze will Daze. Not the best, but it's still not a weapon skill.
    Last edited by DrakeWurrum; 2012-03-05 at 10:17 PM.
    I hope you haven't forgotten my role in this little story. I'm the leading man. You know what they say about the leading man? He never dies.

    If you give in to your impulses in this world, the price is that it changes your personality in the real world. The player and character are one and the same.

  12. #292
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    Quote Originally Posted by nighties View Post
    Going down Domination, a tree that offers 50+ power for using Great Swords and none for Staves. It's clear which one will out perform the other. The Staff skills synergizes with Chaos. And vice versa. Just look at the 2nd minor in Domination. Now where will we find a staff that will also daze another target? Oh right, we can't. Or any other weapon for that matter. Seriously read the damn trait tree I'm tired of repeating this. It's clear you're just being ignorant on the facts and choose to ignore it. It's like arguing with a wall here.

    Build the mesmer any way you want. Fortunately for us, that means a lot of fodder in PVP. Sure, there's lots of ways Anet lets you play. This means a lot of wrong ways too. I'll enjoy seeing your PVP videos



    And that is why we're given 40 extra points to play with. I'm glad you understand the concept of numbers
    You are so stuck in your old school MMO mind set.... who cares if you can use X weapon better in Y tree? I don't, maybe i hate how the scepter plays, yet i want to go completely crazy with illusions? According to you, i will fail because i'm not picking up some stupid +50 condition damage trait instead of making diversion also giving me retaliation, oh wait, i wont fail because i wont be playing the same way as everyone else GASP!! what a novel idea!!

    ---------- Post added 2012-03-05 at 04:18 PM ----------

    Quote Originally Posted by DrakeWurrum View Post
    The Domination tree can provide +300 Power and +300 to condition duration, without accounting for that one greatsword trait. You're the one who was making a big deal about the +300 Toughness just from putting points into Chaos, so I thought you already knew that. Since we only know half of the total major traits from Domination, we have no idea just what sort of build will favor a staff.

    The fact that the Minor traits don't favor a staff means jack shit, since the entire class is balanced around having two weapon sets. You are fully expected to switch to Greatsword when you need a Daze or a Stun.
    i'm 80% sure that anet did infact say that certain trait lines will "favor" different weapons, as in they'll have traits to increase X stat, or reduce recharge by X% for that weapon, but that means you're giving up a much broader utility trait like "Shredding illusions gives all nearby allies X buff"
    Quote Originally Posted by draykorinee View Post
    Youre in the mmo forums and you find mmos boring, Im heading on over to the twilight forums to add my unecessary and shallow 2 cents.

  13. #293
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    Quote Originally Posted by luedieniel View Post
    Yes, because any explanation that does not fit your own thesis of how the mesmer should be played is presented, it must be completely ridiculous.
    No, it's just that it's a ridiculous argument. I still don't see why anybody would fight so heavily to restrict Mesmer playstyle.

    This isn't WoW, where you're not allowed to do more.
    I hope you haven't forgotten my role in this little story. I'm the leading man. You know what they say about the leading man? He never dies.

    If you give in to your impulses in this world, the price is that it changes your personality in the real world. The player and character are one and the same.

  14. #294
    Quote Originally Posted by DrakeWurrum View Post
    The Domination tree can provide +300 Power and +300 to condition duration, without accounting for that one greatsword trait. You're the one who was making a big deal about the +300 Toughness just from putting points into Chaos, so I thought you already knew that. Since we only know half of the total major traits from Domination, we have no idea just what sort of build will favor a staff.

    The fact that the Minor traits don't favor a staff means jack shit, since the entire class is balanced around having two weapon sets. You are fully expected to switch to Greatsword when you need a Daze or a Stun.

    In addition: Mantra of Daze will Daze. Not the best, but it's still not a weapon skill.
    It's actually 30% to duration. But yes, if you want you can go down and put your other 30 points into Domination although you're going to miss out on Conditional Damage in Illusions. I myself don't see much use in having Staves + Great hand but to each their own. Goodluck with no escapes and then complaining about bad AI design.

    Quote Originally Posted by Durzlla View Post
    You are so stuck in your old school MMO mind set.... who cares if you can use X weapon better in Y tree? I don't, maybe i hate how the scepter plays, yet i want to go completely crazy with illusions? According to you, i will fail because i'm not picking up some stupid +50 condition damage trait instead of making diversion also giving me retaliation, oh wait, i wont fail because i wont be playing the same way as everyone else GASP!! what a novel idea!![COLOR="red"]

    i'm 80% sure that anet did infact say that certain trait lines will "favor" different weapons, as in they'll have traits to increase X stat, or reduce recharge by X% for that weapon, but that means you're giving up a much broader utility trait like "Shredding illusions gives all nearby allies X buff"
    It really depends on how you want to play. If you're really set on Illusions though, Scepters the way to go seeing as how they spawn illusions the quickest. Going down the tree also buffs Condition damage and Shatters, so really you're not playing to the spec's full potential if you're not using Scepters seeing as how Scepters and Staves are the only two that dishes out real conditional damage.

    Next.

  15. #295
    The Lightbringer Durzlla's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by nighties View Post
    It's actually 30% to duration. But yes, if you want you can go down and put your other 30 points into Domination although you're going to miss out on Conditional Damage in Illusions. I myself don't see much use in having Staves + Great hand but to each their own. Goodluck with no escapes and then complaining about bad AI design.



    It really depends on how you want to play. If you're really set on Illusions though, Scepters the way to go seeing as how they spawn illusions the quickest. Going down the tree also buffs Condition damage and Shatters, so really you're not playing to the spec's full potential if you're not using Scepters seeing as how Scepters and Staves are the only two that dishes out real conditional damage.

    Next.
    Um, scepters don't do like any conditional damage, at all.... and you do realize there's the magical land of swords that spawns illusions extremely quickly, as do staves, so i don't really see how it'd be playing poorly, it'll just GASP! not be playing the same as you!! Omg it's so strange how that works!! And you do realize phantasms also count as illusions right, so i think i'll be fine with the build i've got.
    Quote Originally Posted by draykorinee View Post
    Youre in the mmo forums and you find mmos boring, Im heading on over to the twilight forums to add my unecessary and shallow 2 cents.

  16. #296
    Quote Originally Posted by Durzlla View Post
    Um, scepters don't do like any conditional damage, at all.... and you do realize there's the magical land of swords that spawns illusions extremely quickly, as do staves, so i don't really see how it'd be playing poorly, it'll just GASP! not be playing the same as you!! Omg it's so strange how that works!! And you do realize phantasms also count as illusions right, so i think i'll be fine with the build i've got.
    You just jumped to that conclusion, missing out on the fact that Illusion tree buffs condition damage (and guile), and assume I only play a certain way? I've even said there were multiple ways to play and it depends on your play-style. If you're set on Illusions, going down the Illusions tree, buffing your conditional damage, then it's only logical Scepter would be a good choice. Yes, you can wield other weapons too but it benefits Scepters the most considering one of the traits buffs it. Of course you don't have to take it but you're just gimping yourself in the long run.

    In terms of spawning illusions, Scepters got swords beat hands down. It's the fastest spawning weapon considering every 3rd attack spawns an illusion. If the GCD is 1 second, you get the idea.

    Scepters confuses and blind the target by the way. Those are conditions.

    Back to the drawing board with you.

    Next.
    Last edited by nighties; 2012-03-06 at 12:19 AM.

  17. #297
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    Quote Originally Posted by nighties View Post
    Yes, you can wield other weapons too but it benefits Scepters the most considering one of the traits buffs it. Of course you don't have to take it but you're just gimping yourself in the long run.
    No, you're not gimping yourself. You get to choose three out of 12 traits in from a trait line (only seven of which have been revealed in Illusions), out of 7 total traits you can have.

    You are not "gimping" yourself by passing up on a weapon-specific bonus from traits.
    Last edited by DrakeWurrum; 2012-03-06 at 01:03 AM.
    I hope you haven't forgotten my role in this little story. I'm the leading man. You know what they say about the leading man? He never dies.

    If you give in to your impulses in this world, the price is that it changes your personality in the real world. The player and character are one and the same.

  18. #298
    This thread... It's going places. In circles~
    - Guild Wars 2 Characters -
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  19. #299
    The Lightbringer Durzlla's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by nighties View Post
    You just jumped to that conclusion, missing out on the fact that Illusion tree buffs condition damage (and guile), and assume I only play a certain way? I've even said there were multiple ways to play and it depends on your play-style. If you're set on Illusions, going down the Illusions tree, buffing your conditional damage, then it's only logical Scepter would be a good choice. Yes, you can wield other weapons too but it benefits Scepters the most considering one of the traits buffs it. Of course you don't have to take it but you're just gimping yourself in the long run.

    In terms of spawning illusions, Scepters got swords beat hands down. It's the fastest spawning weapon considering every 3rd attack spawns an illusion. If the GCD is 1 second, you get the idea.

    Scepters confuses and blind the target by the way. Those are conditions.

    Back to the drawing board with you.

    Next.
    I like how you assume I don't know how conditions work, if you knew anything about condition you'd know blind does 0 damage, and large amounts of confusion can be applied by mesmers using any weapon (cry of frustration), so in reality a staff would be a much better choice in the illusion build sein as how everything it does is conditions. And who cares if sceptors can spawn illusions faster? That's pretty much all it has on swords. Not to mention there's still phantasams that can be summoned which get more out of traits ATM then clones...

    ---------- Post added 2012-03-05 at 07:53 PM ----------

    Quote Originally Posted by Allanon the Mystic View Post
    This thread... It's going places. In circles~
    It's pretty much me or drak post, the nightse comments about how we're wrong and doomed to fail due to not taking a weapon specific trait...

    But in other news where's that backfire phantasam they said mes would get?
    Quote Originally Posted by draykorinee View Post
    Youre in the mmo forums and you find mmos boring, Im heading on over to the twilight forums to add my unecessary and shallow 2 cents.

  20. #300
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    Quote Originally Posted by Durzlla View Post
    But in other news where's that backfire phantasam they said mes would get?
    Backfire phantasm? Whatchu mean?
    I hope you haven't forgotten my role in this little story. I'm the leading man. You know what they say about the leading man? He never dies.

    If you give in to your impulses in this world, the price is that it changes your personality in the real world. The player and character are one and the same.

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