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  1. #1901
    Quote Originally Posted by Fenlnir View Post
    Not to mention that some weapons have nothing to do with some traits.
    exactly. i always use greatsword/staff but sometimes i'd like to mess around with a sword/pistol but it comes down to the fact that if i did it wouldn't even be worth it because my trait spec offers no support for it and it's not worth buying an entire respec just to screw around with the sword and then pay for another respec to switch back to my original traits
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  2. #1902
    Quote Originally Posted by Ralamus View Post
    exactly. i always use greatsword/staff but sometimes i'd like to mess around with a sword/pistol but it comes down to the fact that if i did it wouldn't even be worth it because my trait spec offers no support for it and it's not worth buying an entire respec just to screw around with the sword and then pay for another respec to switch back to my original traits
    You use GS/staff? Is it any good though? I can't even think of the last time I used a GS, because (personally) dual sword+blink is so much better. Unless you're going for a condition/phantasm build, but the 2 on GS is probably the worst ability in the damn game. Seriously, that ability might as well damage ME for how useless it is, except for maybe the bounce.

    So I dinked around a bit on my Mesmer today after rolling a thief as an alt, and noticed that something feels really incomplete for the Mesmer as a whole, and I can't quite nail it down. I think it's pure fluidity (< that one's a real word this time!) in combat. I hadn't noticed it until now, as I only played my Mesmer, but everything just felt clunky after my thief, and I think it may be what's holding the class back as a whole. It also just felt... boring after the thief for a few hours. Maybe that's due to the clunkiness of the combat imo, and while I'll still main on her, there is something seriously holding back Mesmer's. Anyone else feeling a little like this after playing another class? The only thing that felt MORE fluid was the underwater combat with the Trident. No other weapon set or utility layout felt as good. Felt like they made the ele and necro, and just half-assed the combat of the Mesmer.
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  3. #1903
    Quote Originally Posted by Fenlnir View Post
    You use GS/staff? Is it any good though? I can't even think of the last time I used a GS, because (personally) dual sword+blink is so much better. Unless you're going for a condition/phantasm build, but the 2 on GS is probably the worst ability in the damn game. Seriously, that ability might as well damage ME for how useless it is, except for maybe the bounce.

    So I dinked around a bit on my Mesmer today after rolling a thief as an alt, and noticed that something feels really incomplete for the Mesmer as a whole, and I can't quite nail it down. I think it's pure fluidity (< that one's a real word this time!) in combat. I hadn't noticed it until now, as I only played my Mesmer, but everything just felt clunky after my thief, and I think it may be what's holding the class back as a whole. It also just felt... boring after the thief for a few hours. Maybe that's due to the clunkiness of the combat imo, and while I'll still main on her, there is something seriously holding back Mesmer's. Anyone else feeling a little like this after playing another class? The only thing that felt MORE fluid was the underwater combat with the Trident. No other weapon set or utility layout felt as good. Felt like they made the ele and necro, and just half-assed the combat of the Mesmer.
    yes, i love greatsword, especially after the pretty big buff it got recently to its 1 and 3 abilities. 2 is amazing for clone generation and the berserker is great as well. 5 is knockback which is always useful especially in pvp where you can knock enemies off edges. the 5 point minor trait into the bottom tree provides -20% cd on illusion/phantasm creating abilities and the 20point major trait in the top tree provides -20% cd reduction on all greatsword skills. these together make my 2 skill almost a tiny 4 second cooldown and the berserker a 12 second cooldown.

    and i'd disagree with the fluidity part. i always play thief/rogue/etc types and i just didn't like how thief felt in this game.

    what's the other weapon you use with sword/sword? i was wanting to try out a decent sword/pistol build at some point (dont really wanna respec though) and not sure what i'd use as the other weapon. staff maybe?
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  4. #1904
    Quote Originally Posted by Fenlnir View Post
    You use GS/staff? Is it any good though? I can't even think of the last time I used a GS, because (personally) dual sword+blink is so much better. Unless you're going for a condition/phantasm build, but the 2 on GS is probably the worst ability in the damn game. Seriously, that ability might as well damage ME for how useless it is, except for maybe the bounce.

    So I dinked around a bit on my Mesmer today after rolling a thief as an alt, and noticed that something feels really incomplete for the Mesmer as a whole, and I can't quite nail it down. I think it's pure fluidity (< that one's a real word this time!) in combat. I hadn't noticed it until now, as I only played my Mesmer, but everything just felt clunky after my thief, and I think it may be what's holding the class back as a whole. It also just felt... boring after the thief for a few hours. Maybe that's due to the clunkiness of the combat imo, and while I'll still main on her, there is something seriously holding back Mesmer's. Anyone else feeling a little like this after playing another class? The only thing that felt MORE fluid was the underwater combat with the Trident. No other weapon set or utility layout felt as good. Felt like they made the ele and necro, and just half-assed the combat of the Mesmer.
    Frankly for me its completely the opposite. I was having second thoughts about my mesmer untill I played warrior/thief. Thief I hated the gameplay, warriors was frustrating because of how easy their (massive) damage is easy to dodge when you are playing against ppl who know what they are doing. So now im back on my mesmer heh.

    That being said I do agree some things are ill designed, but as a whole it doesnt hold the class back at all neither in PvE or PvP.

  5. #1905
    Fenlnir, what you're noticing is actually the inflexibility of our core class mechanic bar. You hit F1 on a Warrior, you know what you're going to do. When Warrior builds had a passive +damage based on how much adrenaline you had stored (and it was outperforming actually spending said adrenaline), patches went out to encourage you to spend them!

    But the way that Shatter is set up is basically saying that this apple (scepter clone) is worth as much as that PSVita (staff clone) which is worth as much as that truck (sword phantasm). It doesn't matter what the source is, the Shatter treats them all equally. But they aren't equal in any way shape or form when they're alive, and often you want to keep Phantasms alive (anyone who's ever managed to get three Illusionary Swordsmen out at the same time can acknowledge just how much they hurt).

    We have traits that buff our Phantasms and keeping them alive as much as possible (+damage to illusions, +health to Phantasms, Fury/Retaliation on Phantasms, Phantasms give Regeneration [and therefore Protection]), but then to throw all of that and their toolkit away for a flat boring burst, because that burst tells us "guys we have shinies too!" (confusion, condition stripping, boon stripping, vulnerability stacks), and lowering its cooldown as much as possible.

    It's all fine and dandy for there to be multiple playstyles, but it shouldn't really be down to making pathetic scepter (or dodge) clones to spam our F Keys pretty much on cooldown, or ignoring them altogether. Elementalists suffer when they're in the wrong attunement for the situation, or aren't making use of it. Mesmer... lacks this sense of cohesiveness.

    Even more than Greatsword's kind of weird feelings it gives me on its toolkit (too much overlap, it's not usable on Champions/Explorables as a defensive weapon, despite being our only power swap from Sword, clone generation can overwrite Phantasms). It's that the core mechanic intended to be Shatter just feels... meh. And buffing its damage doesn't fix the problem, when the problem is just how binary the situation is.

    ---------- Post added 2012-09-16 at 10:38 PM ----------

    Quote Originally Posted by Ralamus View Post
    is amazing for clone generation and the berserker is great as well. 5 is knockback which is always useful especially in pvp where you can knock enemies off edges. the 5 point minor trait into the bottom tree provides -20% cd on illusion/phantasm creating abilities and the 20point major trait in the top tree provides -20% cd reduction on all greatsword skills. these together make my 2 skill almost a tiny 4 second cooldown and the berserker a 12 second cooldown.
    Yet you'll never ever be able to have three berserkers out to shred people. Your Berserker's also your only AoE (outside of your knockback), which instantly disappears the second your primary target dies.

    what's the other weapon you use with sword/sword? i was wanting to try out a decent sword/pistol build at some point (dont really wanna respec though) and not sure what i'd use as the other weapon. staff maybe?
    Staff, for Chaos Storm on a long as crap cooldown but hey, ground based rather than target based AoE, and also for two seperate readily available sources of Chaos Armor to keep you alive in a pinch, even on people that use Stability when they're hardswapping to pressure you.
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  6. #1906
    The Insane DrakeWurrum's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Kelesti View Post
    It's that the core mechanic intended to be Shatter just feels... meh. And buffing its damage doesn't fix the problem, when the problem is just how binary the situation is.
    I still feel that my suggestion of making clone generation the mesmer "mechanic bar" and putting specific shatters onto weapons, would be a good move, for exactly all the things you just said in that post. Maybe not a perfect one, but a good one.

    Of course, it would also be nice if phantasms and illusions were completely separate, right down to having separate maximums that don't influence one another.
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  7. #1907
    Of course, it would also be nice if phantasms and illusions were completely separate, right down to having separate maximums that don't influence one another.
    This is fine. Something actually repeatedly brought up on the official boards, suggesting that the Phantasms are individually buffed, but you're limited to only one ever. It also tunes down the ramp-up that even full condition builds don't have to deal with to get their damage rolling at a medium pace.

    Phantasms dying when a target dies is also fine, but losing 0 damage clones kind of isn't. We summon 3, not three per target. Just three. If we're supposed to be "trixxy" as our defense, then why do they all vanish the second a target goes down?

    Quote Originally Posted by DrakeWurrum View Post
    I still feel that my suggestion of making clone generation the mesmer "mechanic bar" and putting specific shatters onto weapons, would be a good move, for exactly all the things you just said in that post. Maybe not a perfect one, but a good one.
    Uhhh, no. The defensive Shatters actually feel fine, tying them into weapons means that you can't actually use your weapon skills without first priming them with combo points (why?), and that their effects would be either exact duplicates or effectively cut out a core defensive ability. Either every weapon (or offhand) needs Distortion (which is boring) or you screw over more Mesmers. This doesn't work. Try again, Drake.
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  8. #1908
    The Insane DrakeWurrum's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Kelesti View Post
    Uhhh, no. The defensive Shatters actually feel fine, tying them into weapons means that you can't actually use your weapon skills without first priming them with combo points (why?), and that their effects would be either exact duplicates or effectively cut out a core defensive ability. Either every weapon (or offhand) needs Distortion (which is boring) or you screw over more Mesmers. This doesn't work. Try again, Drake.
    Right, because nobody else in this game has to do that.
    Ohwait...
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  9. #1909
    Yet you'll never ever be able to have three berserkers out to shred people. Your Berserker's also your only AoE (outside of your knockback), which instantly disappears the second your primary target dies.
    yeah but i dont really mind not having out 3 berserkers out at once. phantasms more sustained damage and i prefer shatters, plus the whirlwind fits in well with the shattering if using it right after they perform it. the boss battles in dungeons seem to be the only time where its worth trying to worry about sustained phantasm damage
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  10. #1910
    Quote Originally Posted by DrakeWurrum View Post
    Right, because nobody else in this game has to do that.
    Ohwait...
    That whole you being a dick thing? Yeah, you're doing it again.

    Edit: But if you'd LIKE that system, why don't you play that profession instead?
    Last edited by Kelesti; 2012-09-17 at 05:06 AM.
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  11. #1911
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    Quote Originally Posted by Kelesti View Post
    Staff, for Chaos Storm on a long as crap cooldown but hey, ground based rather than target based AoE, and also for two seperate readily available sources of Chaos Armor to keep you alive in a pinch, even on people that use Stability when they're hardswapping to pressure you.
    Confused. Haven't played a Mesmer long, but where is the second source of Chaos Armor? I know Staff 4, but... Am I just misreading something? o.O

  12. #1912
    Quote Originally Posted by Jetstream View Post
    Confused. Haven't played a Mesmer long, but where is the second source of Chaos Armor? I know Staff 4, but... Am I just missing something? o.O
    Staff 4 is generally the second Chaos Armor you cast. The first being Chaos Storm + Phase Retreat (or any Combo Field: Ethereal with a Combo Finisher: Jump). Chaos Storm + a "fake" Chaos Armor on you is more punishing than pushing 4 on its own, even if your'e only in it for a short time and kite a person through it (if you can't stand in it). And 4 on its own becomes an instant reapply after the first one falls off.

    I often pre-empt a Chaos Armor when I'm jumping into the fray even with melee, by tossing a Feedback on a target and even with my Sword just tossing up Illusionary Armor. Adds stacks of confusion for those plinking away at the target from ranged, but it helps keep me alive until we can get a target down (in which case it starts getting easier). Repeat if necessary with Null Field as a Boon/Condition reset if you need.
    Last edited by Kelesti; 2012-09-17 at 05:09 AM.
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  13. #1913
    The Patient Jetstream's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Kelesti View Post
    Staff 4 is generally the second Chaos Armor you cast. The first being Chaos Storm + Phase Retreat (or any Combo Field: Ethereal with a Combo Finisher: Jump). Chaos Storm + a "fake" Chaos Armor on you is more punishing than pushing 4 on its own, even if your'e only in it for a short time and kite a person through it (if you can't stand in it). And 4 on its own becomes an instant reapply after the first one falls off.
    *eyes the descriptions* Okay, yeah, I guess I can see that. The effects of Chaos Storm + a Phantasm casting Winds of Chaos is basically identical to, and probably better than, Chaos Armor...

  14. #1914
    The Insane DrakeWurrum's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Kelesti View Post
    Staff 4 is generally the second Chaos Armor you cast. The first being Chaos Storm + Phase Retreat (or any Combo Field: Ethereal with a Combo Finisher: Jump). Chaos Storm + a "fake" Chaos Armor on you is more punishing than pushing 4 on its own, even if your'e only in it for a short time and kite a person through it (if you can't stand in it). And 4 on its own becomes an instant reapply after the first one falls off.

    I often pre-empt a Chaos Armor when I'm jumping into the fray even with melee, by tossing a Feedback on a target and even with my Sword just tossing up Illusionary Armor. Adds stacks of confusion for those plinking away at the target from ranged, but it helps keep me alive until we can get a target down (in which case it starts getting easier). Repeat if necessary with Null Field as a Boon/Condition reset if you need.
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  15. #1915
    Quote Originally Posted by Jetstream View Post
    *eyes the descriptions* Okay, yeah, I guess I can see that. The effects of Chaos Storm + a Phantasm casting Winds of Chaos is basically identical to, and probably better than, Chaos Armor...
    Chaos Armor, the actual (4) skill, by itself has one advantage only:
    For its whole duration, no matter if you've been hit yet or not, you have Protection (-33% damage recduction). Fake Chaos Armors don't duplicate this functionality, not sure if it's a bug or intended (Blast Finishers could make it a little OP if it was supposed to?).
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  16. #1916
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    Rolled a female charr mesmer tonight and it was interesting. Had not done much with them before. Given that charr are the lowest rep race i think ill roll or reroll all my toons as charr.
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  17. #1917
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    Quote Originally Posted by SirRobin View Post
    Rolled a female charr mesmer tonight and it was interesting. Had not done much with them before. Given that charr are the lowest rep race i think ill roll or reroll all my toons as charr.
    Don't forget to make it an Artificer, to be all the lowest representation things

  18. #1918
    I am Murloc! SirRobin's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jetstream View Post
    Don't forget to make it an Artificer, to be all the lowest representation things
    Yep

    Now I just need to get the naming thing down.
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  19. #1919
    Quote Originally Posted by DrakeWurrum View Post
    I still feel that my suggestion of making clone generation the mesmer "mechanic bar" and putting specific shatters onto weapons, would be a good move, for exactly all the things you just said in that post. Maybe not a perfect one, but a good one.

    Of course, it would also be nice if phantasms and illusions were completely separate, right down to having separate maximums that don't influence one another.
    THAT right there is the problem. The cloning mechanic just isn't very... well, good. I did up to 50 between the first 2 weekends, and did a ton of pvp, and hit 80 on live. The whole clone mechanic itself is what bugs me I think. I do feel that the shatters do something, it's the clones themselves that feel like crap. Maybe it's because they disappear after your primary target dies, I dunno. It just felt like every weapon ability on the thief felt like it did something meaningful (granted I only hit level 10 before I had to leave my house) whereas the Mesmer on most weapons feels like nothing happens unless you have some of the better clones up.

    So, as I typed the above, it hit me. Passive vs. Active. Mesmer can get away with being fairly passive on auto attacks, especially with staff/scepter since it gives pretty decent clone generation, as well as boons/conditions. Because, let's face it, once you get everything up, what's there to do? Almost nothing, unless you use a bomb build, and as Kelesti pointed out, the shatter treats them all the same.

    Maybe they want us to pick what types we'll use for various situations, similar to attunements. It may sound bonkers, but... What if they designed it around certain summons (includes anything that fills the pink dots for generality) being used for not being shattered. The more I think about it, it makes a little more sense. This will probably become a hefty wall of text, so I'll paragraph for each for ease of read.

    Phantasm They benefit from
    raits that buff our Phantasms and keeping them alive as much as possible (+damage to illusions, +health to Phantasms, Fury/Retaliation on Phantasms, Phantasms give Regeneration [and therefore Protection])
    In the Phantasm, we see the most damage from abilities, ie GS 4, where it does something very tangible while it lives, so it benefits the most from the traits that exclusively buff phantasms. Using this thinking, we should NEVER shatter a phantasm unless the situation is dire, because along with a fairly long cooldown, as well as the shatter assuming everything is the same, a phantasm will always do best while up. But when to use Phantasms? Personally, (using the GS 4 skill as "control") this phantasm doesn't do very good against single targets, it excels on AOE situations, with targets not dying instantly, so Phantasms are pretty decent for soloing when traited. If we continue down this, without traiting, Phantasms die fairly quickly if targeted, so it will always be best to summon them second-third in the summoning order.

    Clones Next is Clones. Summoned from more skills than Phantasms, these are lower statted versions of the player, that are fairly durable. There isn't any traiting into them having more health, just condition on kill and more damage while they're in play. They do create a good distraction in PvP when used right. Use of them can vary, from the dodge summon to confuse an enemy (not the condition) to any skill that summons them. The summon of a clone, is probably best done first, as they are more durable (naturally) than Phantasms, so they can take a little more punishment while the summon of an Illusion or Phantasm is done. Since we know shatters don't take into account what you shatter, a full Clone summon is probably ideal for any shatter situation, since there are a myriad of skills that will summon one.

    Illusions Last are the Illusions. These are very niche summons, that are fairly common. Niche in that there aren't any traits that make them really good, but there are a bunch of traits that buff them. There isn't much to say about the Illusions, as they are fairly independent of the character (in terms of damage). They are probably best summoned second in the summon set, as they need a decent amount of time to really do much good, so the clone needs to be up first. As with the Phantasm, Illusions aren't ideal for any shatter due ramp up times on damage (staff skills come to mind).

    All of my information (unfortunately mostly) comes from the wiki, but I feel that some skill descriptions and summons are wrong compared to the client. This wasn't meant to be an end all be all of a summon guide, more of thoughts after playing Mesmer almost exclusively, in a variety of roles. I also noticed while looking at the skills, Shatter skills aren't listed as shattering Illusions but I've always noticed them doing so. If it, along with a few other mechanic issues are truly bugged, and we've never noticed, maybe that's what the problem is with the class as a whole. As I kind of stated above under Illusions, they need some time to really do much good, thus the more passive buffing through traits. Well, if you read, thanks, it's probably the longest post I've ever done, so if you notice anything wrong (especially fact wise) feel free to point it out. I just felt that I needed to expand on what I (and a few others by the looks of it) feel is the most wrong with Mesmers.

    Edit: I've also never used colors in a post before, so I'm glad it worked.
    Last edited by Fenlnir; 2012-09-17 at 05:36 AM. Reason: The color pink worked
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  20. #1920
    There isn't really an "Illusion" category. Illusions is both Clones and Phantasms grouped as one. Clones do zero damage (but sometimes have a debuff) and look like you, Phantasms are the transparent purply stuff.
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