Mesmer Discussion Thread

[zito]

Because they persist for freaking ever, and destroy healthbars like they go out of style? And I'd hardly call a .25s a delay... Which is what they're set to in the next patch (they've already said this on official mes forums)

A lot of skills destroy health bars without being a summon. A simple aoe or just a quick tab target destroys phantasms. At this point it's better to run a phantasm shatter build PvP wise. For their first attack and that's it, any kind of cleave or aoe and no more phantasm.

Speaking of a time line this is how it went:

-Phantasms get a delay because its a hard hitting move even though every class has a hard hitting move that is not a summon and can't be killed (if aoe is going down don't even bother summoning a phantasm).

-Phantasms could still be summoned on los and other things so the delay was justified.

-Months later it was stated it was never intentional for phantasms to persist when los and other methods so it was nerfed. Delay not justified

-Instead of fixing it in beta for a 0 sec delay (which would result in them having to actually fix "other things breaking" which should be fixed regardless) we get a unjustified delay in our attacks over other's.

Granted it's .25 seconds... Actually it's not .25 seconds because they did this to counter the new delay bug they acknowledged. So we get left with overnerfed phantasms.

[Meledelion]

What? Mass Rez and condi purge 4 times in a minute? What? 100% regen uptime for allies + very good condi remov, what? Aoe group healing on a better CD then healing rain? 50% uptime on protection for allies? What we can do even more then that and I don't feel like typing it/I think zito and Kel don't want ranger talk in Mesmer thread? Please tell me how we're gimped... Oh yeah, I'm also the last one to finally drop in my groups, always (well unless I'm a dumbass and jump off a cliff because I'm not paying attention)

And since when does DPS matter in GW2? I've always gone for survivability + constant damage and constantly outperform the one hit wonders you mentioned under the "do better dps" cause it's kinda hard to dps when your ass is firmly melded with the dirt on the floor!

You use spirits=fail since they're dead in one sec+u have to sac all your traits for them, regen prot and might can be maintained easily by eles+condi removal +power+blind+weakness+burn+bleed+vuln same goes for wars/engineers and necros (buff wise i mean) and they don't even need to sacrifice their elites/heals for it.
List all you want there's more than 4classes that can do w/e you list better

Regarding your second part check https://forum-en.guildwars2.com/foru...rst#post923772 think about it (what is said in there counts for other classes aswell btw)

Your idea about "dead dps=0dps" is awesome (in wow) where you have the trinity. In gw it doesn't fly

[Durzlla]

Zito... It's not .25 seconds YET it won't be until the 14th... And tbh I feel phantasms are stronger than most bursts because you have no real drawbacks to usin it other than that summon can die, examples: backstabbing, you can't do tha in an aoe that'll get your shit tossed, but you sure as hell can iBerserker or iDuelist through an aoe cause the phantasm can get a few hits off dealing a lo of damage before dying, it's also just one skill where most other hard hitting moves are multi skill combos.

I don't even have points in my phantasms and they will WRECK people if left unchecked, god knows how powerful they are with points spent in them!!

---------- Post added 2012-12-04 at 07:54 PM ----------

Aw, how cute!! You think spirits are bad AND that you need to invest points!! You clearly read the official ranger forums if you believe that nonsense!

[zito]

You use spirits=fail since they're dead in one sec+u have to sac all your traits for them, regen prot and might can be maintained easily by eles+condi removal +power+blind+weakness+burn+bleed+vuln same goes for wars/engineers and necros (buff wise i mean) and they don't even need to sacrifice their elites/heals for it.
List all you want there's more than 4classes that can do w/e you list better

There has been a ranger sword/spirit build going around Spvp that is quite deadly.

And tbh I feel phantasms are stronger than most bursts because you have no real drawbacks to usin it other than that summon can die, examples: backstabbing, you can't do tha in an aoe that'll get your shit tossed, but you sure as hell can iBerserker or iDuelist through an aoe cause the phantasm can get a few hits off dealing a lo of damage before dying, it's also just one skill where most other hard hitting moves are multi skill combos.

The delay is preventing phantasms to get off an attack before dying. That's the whole argument. Backstab theif won't die to 1 gcd of standing in aoe. To quickly vanish and heal like they do now.

Mesmers burst can die, other proffesions can't unless they die themselves which also count towards mesmers. A delay, regardless of how long it is, is not justified if phantasms act like a normal attacked effected by los, block and everything else.

[Kelesti]

Fyi, the delay on first attack has been present since BWE2. It is there for balance reasons to give enemies a moment to react to the powerful summon.

Then why do we need to be dodged, blockable, blind on summon? Enemy players need not one, but two chances to make the spell completely worthless, with realistically three times the time-gap that a big projectile or melee swing goes out?

The fuck are you thinking, ANet?

[Meledelion]

There has been a ranger sword/spirit build going around Spvp that is quite deadly.

Doesn't work since BWE3, also if you're talking hot join spvp it's "wrecking" people that are noobs. No high end teams run rangers, for a good reason. (the bad thing about sword is that it locks you in place so you can't dodge once you start attacking which is pretty frigin awful)

I don't even have points in my phantasms and they will WRECK people if left unchecked, god knows how powerful they are with points spent in them!!
[/COLOR]Aw, how cute!! You think spirits are bad AND that you need to invest points!! You clearly read the official ranger forums if you believe that nonsense!

And yes they are bad, if random aoe oneshots it and it only buffs once every "10"sec it simply is bad, go do frac lvl 10+ with your spirits and check uptime...

Mesmer dmg is pretty lethal, my warden does 8.5-9k my duelist does about 1k less but has a slower recharge time. This is all for solo play, if you take TW into consideration and add that dps to mes it is the highest dps class ingame.

@kelesti it's due to illusions being able to kill people while the mes is blinded 100% of the fight. The delay is needed as a "tell" to dodge like any other major attack has.

[Durzlla]

There has been a ranger sword/spirit build going around Spvp that is quite deadly.



The delay is preventing phantasms to get off an attack before dying. That's the whole argument. Backstab theif won't die to 1 gcd of standing in aoe. To quickly vanish and heal like they do now.

Mesmers burst can die, other proffesions can't unless they die themselves which also count towards mesmers. A delay, regardless of how long it is, is not justified if phantasms act like a normal attacked effected by los, block and everything else.

Zito I feel you think I have more say on the matter then I do lol, I'm sayin keep the delay but make there a 100% chance to summon it if you have a target... I can see -why- they have the delay now but I think they should at the very least buff phantasms health/armor a bit so they can at least get an attack off if they're in an aoe.

[zito]

Doesn't work since BWE3, also if you're talking hot join spvp it's "wrecking" people that are noobs. No high end teams run rangers, for a good reason. (the bad thing about sword is that it locks you in place so you can't dodge once you start attacking which is pretty frigin awful)

I've fought 2 people who knew how to play it right and went toe to toe with it. It is strong and my first reaction is to kill the spirits. They don't die to one aoe and not even 2, they actually took a bit of time to kill which is a great opening for the ranger.

If you want to discuss it further go to the ranger thread.

Zito I feel you think I have more say on the matter then I do lol, I'm sayin keep the delay but make there a 100% chance to summon it if you have a target... I can see -why- they have the delay now but I think they should at the very least buff phantasms health/armor a bit so they can at least get an attack off if they're in an aoe.

No, I just find everything they do with mesmers is starting to be redundant or unnecessary is my main gripe. If they do what you suggestion it would be just counter productive of their first change.

There are even some game changing bugs, if fixed, we would actually have a bit of build diversity. But they don't even know how much damage zerker even did. So they won't fix game changing bugs even if it smacks them in the face. I'm convinced nobody plays a mesmer, especially when the warrior "dev" is posting in the mesmer forums about not knowing the damage of berserker.

[Durzlla]

I've fought 2 people who knew how to play it right and went toe to toe with it. It is strong and my first reaction is to kill the spirits. They don't die to one aoe and not even 2, they actually took a bit of time to kill which is a great opening for the ranger.

If you want to discuss it further go to the ranger thread.



No, I just find everything they do with mesmers is starting to be redundant or unnecessary is my main gripe. If they do what you suggestion it would be just counter productive of their first change.

I'm saying make it so they could survive an AoE long enough, not being attacked directly long enough...

Agreed on the ranger thing, and I know exactly how they kept them up, I did that for a whole myself... I fin hiding them to be better strat overall though...

[Cempa]

My understanding is as it stands now Phantasm wise staff warlock seems to be the best operating phantasm -yes or no?

I came up with a build -probably done a hundred times before- that focuses on high toughness and high condition damage and ask any feedback.

0/0/25/25/20 Staff / Scepter+Focus
Decoy / Phantasmal Disenchanter / Sig of Domi / Time Warp

17,582 HP
1910 Toughness
1449 Condition Damage
35% Crit
916 Power

Edit: I changed the neck from Rabid to Shaman since I doubt crit matters and the extra healing is always welcome:

Healing: 894
Toughness: 2,189
Condition dmg: 1,184

http://intothemists.com/calc/?build=...a;1jwmAjwmA9cT

[zito]

My understanding is as it stands now Phantasm wise staff warlock seems to be the best operating phantasm -yes or no?

I came up with a build -probably done a hundred times before- that focuses on high toughness and high condition damage and ask any feedback.

0/0/25/25/20 Staff / Scepter+Focus
Decoy / Phantasmal Disenchanter / Sig of Domi / Time Warp

17,582 HP
1910 Toughness
1449 Condition Damage
35% Crit
916 Power

Edit: I changed the neck from Rabid to Shaman since I doubt crit matters and the extra healing is always welcome:

Healing: 894
Toughness: 2,189
Condition dmg: 1,184

http://intothemists.com/calc/?build=...a;1jwmAjwmA9cT

+healing scales incredibly low for a mesmer that it's 100% wasted stat in the sense you need to invest a lot into it for a mild return. If you are doing a condition build Iwarlock becomes meh.

In this case I would use it for burst scenario to finish someone off.

You will want at least sharper images. All illusions that crit give an extra stack of bleed. It's pretty potent along with dodge clones (you want this in PvP or you won't have substational clone generation).

Phantasmal disenchanter is trash, it's probably are worst skill especially if you are trying to remove conditions and with a staff. You have to summon it on a foe, a bounce is wasted on a foe and elasticity doesn't apply to phantasms, and the bounce range is small so if you are at range it's wasted.

Focus is meh without reflect traits. And even then it's still pretty meh compared to everything else. The nerf to warden is too much and lied about (in the patch notes it says it should have a 5 sec skill recharge when traited... well it doesn't). Go with either Pistol for a guarentee that you will get 5 stacks of confusion from scepter or torch for extra stacks of confusion since you are bursting condition damage and a stealth.

Moa is still good for 1vs1. It's damage still horrible it just attacks faster.

http://intothemists.com/calc/?build=...a;1jwmAjwmA2VV

You might want to get +cond duration runes for confusion and your bleeds and rethink your sigils

[Meledelion]

Another issue is that the staff "randomly" generates a condition meaning that stacking burning/poison/bleed is very hard even when you have your 3clones up.
A better way is going full conf build "glamour glitter" + combining scept/pistol so you add bleeding and confusion at once.

[Cempa]

15k HP?

How about:

http://intothemists.com/calc/?build=...a;1jwmAjwmA9cT

Ignoring the focus that can change and disencahnter also.

[Durzlla]

+healing scales incredibly low for a mesmer that it's 100% wasted stat in the sense you need to invest a lot into it for a mild return. If you are doing a condition build Iwarlock becomes meh.

In this case I would use it for burst scenario to finish someone off.

You will want at least sharper images. All illusions that crit give an extra stack of bleed. It's pretty potent along with dodge clones (you want this in PvP or you won't have substational clone generation).

Phantasmal disenchanter is trash, it's probably are worst skill especially if you are trying to remove conditions and with a staff. You have to summon it on a foe, a bounce is wasted on a foe and elasticity doesn't apply to phantasms, and the bounce range is small so if you are at range it's wasted.

Focus is meh without reflect traits. And even then it's still pretty meh compared to everything else. The nerf to warden is too much and lied about (in the patch notes it says it should have a 5 sec skill recharge when traited... well it doesn't). Go with either Pistol for a guarentee that you will get 5 stacks of confusion from scepter or torch for extra stacks of confusion since you are bursting condition damage and a stealth.

Moa is still good for 1vs1. It's damage still horrible it just attacks faster.

http://intothemists.com/calc/?build=...a;1jwmAjwmA2VV

You might want to get +cond duration runes for confusion and your bleeds and rethink your sigils

Healing isn't 100% wasted, it actually scales fairly well for Mirror (my heal of choice which was a win win for me xD) And my pvp build has 0 points in Dueling yet is still very very good at clone generation and i use a staff as well, i just couldn't get the results i wanted with the dueling traits that i could by going full 30 in chaos and a full 30 in illusions.

http://gw2skills.net/editor/?fgAQNAW...7XuvkftkYIxuAA

This is the build i run in tPvP and sPvP (i -will- run it in PvE once i get my mes up to 80, just recently started playing him in PvE again), yes, i use demon summoning wanna fight about it? Corruption is also an option, no i don't use rabid because i found being super tough to kill + super tough illusions (idk WHY they're so tough do they get our toughness? Because i've had people unleash their burst on my illusion being 100% sure it was me just for it to shatter in their face) very nice combo.

[zito]

A better way is going full conf build "glamour glitter" + combining scept/pistol so you add bleeding and confusion at once.

With 3 clones up you can easily keep a constant stack of 10 bleeds if you spec for the crit trait. Also the glamour confusion build is only decent for burst. You lose consistent damage with it.

Healing isn't 100% wasted, it actually scales fairly well for Mirror

With his stats. His shamans amulet and traits gets him an extra 600 healing from Mirror. Totaling 4,451 healing up from 3915. That is too low for 1/3 of his stats. That could of been vitality and get him an extra 6k health. To be specific with shamans he would have 17,582 health. If he replaces that healing power for vitality it would go to 24,022 health. An increase of 6440 health. That's one extra backstab he can live threw and that makes all the difference over a puny 600 extra healing from mirror. It's too much wasted investment to make it worth whiled.

If mesmers were built like elementalist and guardians healing power would be more reasonable but currently it just isn't.

15k HP?

How about:

http://intothemists.com/calc/?build=...a;1jwmAjwmA9cT

Ignoring the focus that can change and disencahnter also.

Well you linked the exact same build so either you aren't open to criticism or you provided the wrong link. Either way now that I'm off work I can go into more detail about your build.

Let's start with Focus. Curtain is good, it's the best trolling tool we got and a good interrupt. Warden however is meh. It easily dies to aoe, doesn't seem to absorb attacks directed at him and his positioning is questionable. Overall focus is an investment. You need the focus trait (reflects projectiles) for focus to be decent. Bad news is curtain has a low height so it wont reflect projectiles on a hill or anything taller then a norn. Warden has a higher height so it can reflect things on a hill sad news is its slow attack recharge. It's recharge is 14 seconds ouch, and if any aoe is going on it's just useless. Overall focus is "ok" but it needs points invested in order to be on par with everything else.

Phantasmal disenchanter is just a bad investment deal waiting to happen. It's underpowered and Anet has no love for this guy. The trait illusionary elasticity doesn't apply to it. It can die before it can even do anything and if you want to shatter, BOOM, there goes any condition removal you got. It only bounces in a small range in melee. It's just lackluster. It will bounce to one foe then one ally. It's just... blah compared to null field and arcane theiveray. I've never seen another mesmer use this skill or consider it.

Now for traits.... Master of manipulations is useless because you are not using any manipulation skills.

Since you are going condition damage with almost no crit chance there is no point in precise wrack because you are not using mind wrack for power damage, you are using it for condition damage. Which goes into you need 33% increase confusion duration because confusion will be your main source of damage.

If you really for some unknown reason don't want to go into dueling for extra bleed stacks (which you should since you are so heavy in defense and heavy in shattering) drop menders purity for wardens feedback for the focus investment I talked about.

Because of your build you don't have much flexibility with amulets. Shaman probably would be your best bet. Healing power is still meh but amulets currently don't have much flexibility but in WvW avoid healing power gear and aim for vitality, toughness , condition.

http://intothemists.com/calc/?build=...a;1jwmAjwmA9co

[Meledelion]

Also the glamour confusion build is only decent for burst. You lose consistent damage with it.

For PvP you want burst dmg, not sustained presure.

I agree for the rest of your post though.

[Durzlla]

For PvP you want burst dmg, not sustained presure.

I agree for the rest of your post though.

Actually, if you're a condition + toughness build sustained pressure works REALLY well for dropping just about anyone because it's significantly stronger against condition removals (because it relies on just constantly putting up some shortish length conditions), but to each his own.

[Meledelion]

Actually, if you're a condition + toughness build sustained pressure works REALLY well for dropping just about anyone because it's significantly stronger against condition removals (because it relies on just constantly putting up some shortish length conditions), but to each his own.

why go with a sustained dmg build when u can get a full burst off in the same gear. The reason why condi thieves are such a pain is because they can get up bleeds really really fast=> burst same goes for ranger and any other condi build.
Mesmers aren't built for what you're trying to achieve, the ramp up town for illusions is too big.

[Durzlla]

why go with a sustained dmg build when u can get a full burst off in the same gear. The reason why condi thieves are such a pain is because they can get up bleeds really really fast=> burst same goes for ranger and any other condi build.
Mesmers aren't built for what you're trying to achieve, the ramp up town for illusions is too big.

But what i want to achieve is what i have achieved... and Oh no!! They can ramp up bleeds really fast! What ever will i do *rolls eyes* oh yeah maybe cleanse a condition and completely negate their burst because they only stack bleeding, funny how that works...

[zito]

why go with a sustained dmg build when u can get a full burst off in the same gear. The reason why condi thieves are such a pain is because they can get up bleeds really really fast=> burst same goes for ranger and any other condi build.
Mesmers aren't built for what you're trying to achieve, the ramp up town for illusions is too big.

Bleed stacking theives isn't burst. They can get high stacks of bleeds fast but it has a high up time. It's more sustained then burst.

Burst is backstab theives where they pop steal, cloak and dagger, back stab each doing around 7k damage respectably