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  1. #1
    Dreadlord Derivatives's Avatar
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    What would you do with a lock who refuses to take advice?

    We're a 25man raiding guild working our way through Heroic Progression and i'm one of two locks. The other lock (Heathrow) refuses to take any DPS advice from me and claims that he doesn't care. I went to the officers about this and they aren't doing anything about it. We have the same ilevel (Maybe 1 ilevel different), but look:
    (I started getting into the swing of things after attempt 5)
    http://worldoflogs.com/reports/f4px1...?s=2969&e=3069
    http://worldoflogs.com/reports/f4px1...?s=3342&e=3556
    http://worldoflogs.com/reports/f4px1...?s=4506&e=4655
    http://worldoflogs.com/reports/f4px1...?s=5930&e=6292

    He plays affliction for Normal/Heroic Yor'Sahj. Destruction for Yor'Sahj.

    Now let's look at a typical Yor'Sahj/Zon'ozz kill on normal.
    http://worldoflogs.com/reports/f4px1...?s=7924&e=8157
    http://worldoflogs.com/reports/f4px1...?s=8635&e=8856

    Should I be seriously concerned? What should I do? It seems like the officers don't even care. (The other raiders notice it too and they don't even play a lock)
    Last edited by Derivatives; 2012-02-25 at 07:27 PM.
    Power?!?! I'll show you POWER!!!

  2. #2
    He might actually be trying but just isn't able to see improvements. Most people would rather claim to not care than admit that they're having problems. If he's really that opposed to taking advice try to have a serious talk with your raid/guild leader. Get his percentiles from raidbots.com/epeenbot to show them his chronic underperformance and see if they can have a talk with him.

  3. #3
    Stood in the Fire Korbany's Avatar
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    Just have a quiet chat with your raid leader, perhaps he might have better luck advising the warlock.

    Having said that if I were you then I would be far more concerned with the hunter and druid in your group that appear to be putting out less dps than is common in heroic 5 mans.

  4. #4
    Stood in the Fire Feline Grace's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Korbany View Post
    Just have a quiet chat with your raid leader, perhaps he might have better luck advising the warlock.

    Having said that if I were you then I would be far more concerned with the hunter and druid in your group that appear to be putting out less dps than is common in heroic 5 mans.
    The druid is a tank, if you look at the abilitys used, and the other is just a resto beeing bored, what it appears ;p

    But yeah, I second the first part, have a chat with your raidleader/GM.. Won't get far with people slacking about, really.

  5. #5
    How long have you been raiding in this guild? How well do you know the people in it? I am asking this because the relationships between people in that guild could have everything to do with this situation.

    Is this warlock a good friend of the GM or officers? He could be getting a pass because he is a friend. Complaining might be counter-productive because he could be the very reason they need YOU and your dps. If it is a friendship situation, he will keep his spot no matter what, it is YOUR spot that might disappear if you rock the boat.

    My cynical side also wants to ask, is the person playing that lock a female? Unfortunately it can make a huge difference in what is expected of the raider and what will be said and done in regards to the situation.

    The problem might also be that you are not authorized to suggest, comment or criticize that person's dps, because you are not a class lead, raid lead or officer. Your attempts to help might have led to the "I don't care" comment. Of course if talking to the leaders and officers does not produce positive results then you are back to 1) is he someone's buddy- 2) is that a girl- 3)will your raid spot will disappear if you rock the boat.

    I have seen this many times before, and will likely see it again, considering human nature. Good luck with this!!!!!

  6. #6
    Bloodsail Admiral Palmz's Avatar
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    He died on 3 attempts (looks like a healing issue from what killed him) and the other it was a 1 min 30 sec attempt. You can't really gauge his performance like that. It's 4 attempts. As for the normal kill he just isn't performing well on the adds and thats a given as destro but his single target damage on Yorsahj should be higher.
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  7. #7
    Honestly i didnt really check all logs, nor did i check deaths etc.
    My guess is that some of those logs might be contrasting a bit too much. Are you finding the ones where he did worst on? For example that first one, is only a 1:30 fight, and i can see that you demo aoe'd and he did pretty much no aoe as affli.
    Oh well. If the contrasting isnt on purpose, then yeah, have a talk with the big boys and find out how serious of a guild you wanna be.
    If you want your raid to function well and progress faster, just the fact that he doesnt care is enough for him to be thrown out imo, but that is for the individual guild to decide.
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  8. #8
    I'm kinda with Amethystlyn on this. What kind of relationships are we looking at? Which one of you has been there the longest and how long have you both been there. Is it the kind of guild that will push people, or just kind of lets things go as they do? It's hard to give you any sort of sound advice on where to go without knowing a bit more about the dynamics of the raid group. So I would say answer these:

    1. How long have both of you been in guild?
    2. Does the raid lead/gm push for optimal performance (call people out for doing bad things, push for double potting (though I didn't see any pot use in the attempts I looked at), flask/food check, etc.)
    3. Is the other lock friends/irl friends/in a relationship with raid lead/officers/gm?
    4. Are you saying "hey you should try this!" or "GOD YOU'RE BAD!!! You need to do this this and this NOW!"?
    5. Have they always underperformed?

    The two parts I dissagree with Amethystlyn on are the female aspect and the authorization aspect. My disagreement could stem from the guild I am in though. On the first point our guild has generally had a good number of female players that get pushed just has hard as the guys and the ones that try to be all "wow whore" don't last long at all (mostly because the rest of the girls are like "gtfo whore"). As for the second point, our guild has pretty much always been open to suggestions/help from whoever. Our members generally help each other out, give advice/take advice, without much. There will always be spats and people that don't like each other, but the ones who have been like "you're not an officer you can't tell me what to do" don't last long either. And our raid lead has no problems calling people out for being really dumb. We have a "we assume you know what you are doing and are responsible for yourself" attitude - when you're not, you get told so. I don't remember where I was going with that...I'm going to stop typing now.

  9. #9
    Dreadlord Derivatives's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by evoco View Post
    I'm kinda with Amethystlyn on this. What kind of relationships are we looking at? Which one of you has been there the longest and how long have you both been there. Is it the kind of guild that will push people, or just kind of lets things go as they do? It's hard to give you any sort of sound advice on where to go without knowing a bit more about the dynamics of the raid group. So I would say answer these:

    1. How long have both of you been in guild?
    2. Does the raid lead/gm push for optimal performance (call people out for doing bad things, push for double potting (though I didn't see any pot use in the attempts I looked at), flask/food check, etc.)
    3. Is the other lock friends/irl friends/in a relationship with raid lead/officers/gm?
    4. Are you saying "hey you should try this!" or "GOD YOU'RE BAD!!! You need to do this this and this NOW!"?
    5. Have they always underperformed?

    The two parts I dissagree with Amethystlyn on are the female aspect and the authorization aspect. My disagreement could stem from the guild I am in though. On the first point our guild has generally had a good number of female players that get pushed just has hard as the guys and the ones that try to be all "wow whore" don't last long at all (mostly because the rest of the girls are like "gtfo whore"). As for the second point, our guild has pretty much always been open to suggestions/help from whoever. Our members generally help each other out, give advice/take advice, without much. There will always be spats and people that don't like each other, but the ones who have been like "you're not an officer you can't tell me what to do" don't last long either. And our raid lead has no problems calling people out for being really dumb. We have a "we assume you know what you are doing and are responsible for yourself" attitude - when you're not, you get told so. I don't remember where I was going with that...I'm going to stop typing now.
    Here lies the deep problem. He has been in the guild for 2 years as a periodic raider. I've been in the guild for 7 months. The raid leader himself is almost never pushing for performance. I hate to admit it, but I brought this issue up with the GM without considering that he might be a friend and he didn't want to hear it. I assume that there is some sort of friendship. I brought it up with the other officers and they just said, "some people just don't want advice." I am demonology for every fight and he is always doing less than me as destro (even on gunship normal he pulls about 23k). The one fight where we matched me was Madness (normal) and it was only one time that he did it. We both hit 58k dps. The Heroic Yorsahj logs were all attempts from the boss we're currently working on. So, sadly, they're all dreadfully short =/ (50-75% wipes). He uses his infernal and such optimally, but I just don't know what to do! My methods for approaching them were very kind at first, but when he gave rude responses, my responses got short and blunt. Generally, though, he's 11-14th on DPS in a 25man.

    P.S. Kalaran is a tank. Pogon isn't a raider. We just needed someone to fill a missing spot. =)
    Power?!?! I'll show you POWER!!!

  10. #10
    Honestly, if the guild doesn't push for performance, then there is not much you can do. If he doesn't want to listen and no one in charge particularly cares then you're out of luck. If you like the guild and where it's going you're probably just going to have to suck it up and try not to think about it. But it may be a way in which you and the guild differ in where you want to see things go, in that case it might be worth considering finding a new home that is more in line with the way you enjoy playing.

    Alternatively you could try to inspire everyone in the guild to push more and hope that it rubs off to him. But if it is an established guild they may be set in their ways.

    So all in all if I were in your situation I probably would find a new guild that pushed people a little harder. Not completely hard core, but expects people to give 100%.

  11. #11
    Moderator Zinnin's Avatar
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    In only one of those logs I looked at had you doing significantly more damage to the Yor'shaj. So Gratz! your doing more damage aoeing with cds then a destro lock, really isn't that surprising.

    1st log you linked: Taking away Black Phase adds you did 2.14M damage and he did 2.22M damage
    2nd logged taking away black phase you did about 4.42m he did 3.75m
    3rd log you did 2.51M damage and he did 2.92M
    4th you did 7.23M to his 6M damage (however here he did nearly double the damage to slime's then you)

    Sure you performance might be slightly higher, however he is putting much more damage on almost every pull to slimes. This means he is prolly running the extra 20yrds or so to start dps on it earlier, or switching his pet which would lead to a pretty decent chunk of lost damage on the boss.

    Also saying "he always does less then me as destro and im demo" as a statement of superiority seems pretty retarded to me, as demos DPS is just fine, and in many cases is higher then destro depending on the mechanics of a fight.

    Unless your guild is killing the oozes way before they get to the boss, and is having huge problems aoeing down the black adds I would say that he is doing just fine.

    http://www.worldoflogs.com/reports/f...136&target=110
    http://www.worldoflogs.com/reports/f...560&target=110
    http://www.worldoflogs.com/reports/f...&s=3905&e=3930 - This one was the best

  12. #12
    i really think you guys are playing it wrong... if you want to asign him to adds.. make him go demo... or if he want to stay affliction.. make him to stay on the boss only!!! like my GM does with me. i stay only on the boss since the dps on oozess is enough , and i do periodaicaly aoe to black adds with SB:SoC. we do have an Dem0o Lock as well.. but wth that tactic?strategy... when i am on boss.. it helps alots for the enrage timer and i do drain the mana void as well.. so i do 2 main jobs(nuke boss + drain Mana void) so everyone else can concentrate on oozes and black adds... works like charm. and check our log..i do competitive dps to the demo lock.
    http://www.worldoflogs.com/reports/j...?s=6227&e=6741

    sorry this tread is like an advice if you didnt kill the Yorsahj guy yet... to improve - optimize the dps you got.

    I really thinik you should leave him on the boss + mana void if he is affliction. or make him demo and do standart job.


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  13. #13
    Stood in the Fire c1nn4m0n's Avatar
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    Went to a random log of the bosses, overall he's doing fine. Leaders don't seem concerned about his performance, so why are you? http://worldoflogs.com/reports/smi4p...ne/?enc=bosses

    Maybe he just doesn't care that much, and after two years logs on to chill out in raids. If he was the lowest dps and you were really struggling with your progression because of that it would be different - but it really doesn't seem like that. He might have irl things going on that you don't know about that could be contributing to his average performance or periodic availability, but if he's been there for two years, he seems pretty loyal.

    I'd say either stop worrying about it so much, or join a guild that pushes for more progression.

  14. #14
    TE sounds like a pesky little squealer.

  15. #15
    Just from skimming the log Velox put up, he actually seems to be relatively close to you consistently every fight... so if you think he's underperforming I'd be inclined to say you might be too.

    You certainly both are on Blackhorn >.> 23k? Really? And not even 20k on his part as Destruction... blegh

    Edit: Okay, he died early to be fair it looks like. But 25k active dps is still pretty meh.
    Verily, thou shalt rejoice in the house of the tentacle.

  16. #16
    I agree with this all

  17. #17
    ever thought about that the guy might read mmo ? ^^

  18. #18
    Quote Originally Posted by Derivatives View Post
    We're a 25man raiding guild working our way through Heroic Progression and i'm one of two locks. The other lock (Heathrow) refuses to take any DPS advice from me and claims that he doesn't care. I went to the officers about this and they aren't doing anything about it. We have the same ilevel (Maybe 1 ilevel different), but look:
    (I started getting into the swing of things after attempt 5)
    http://worldoflogs.com/reports/f4px1...?s=2969&e=3069
    http://worldoflogs.com/reports/f4px1...?s=3342&e=3556
    http://worldoflogs.com/reports/f4px1...?s=4506&e=4655
    http://worldoflogs.com/reports/f4px1...?s=5930&e=6292

    He plays affliction for Normal/Heroic Yor'Sahj. Destruction for Yor'Sahj.

    Now let's look at a typical Yor'Sahj/Zon'ozz kill on normal.
    http://worldoflogs.com/reports/f4px1...?s=7924&e=8157
    http://worldoflogs.com/reports/f4px1...?s=8635&e=8856

    Should I be seriously concerned? What should I do? It seems like the officers don't even care. (The other raiders notice it too and they don't even play a lock)
    You're coming off bad. And you're going to start guild drama if you lock or other guildies see this. You could have asked the same question without posting logs. While I don't appreciate when people don't pull their weight on progression, and don't do anything to improve, you are just coming off as a control freak. You don't think he's listening to you, and it's driving you insane. You went to the leadership, you've talked to him. If something isn't going to be done, it isn't going to be done. It may be time for you to look for another guild. But next time you want to write one of these about a guildie, leave the logs out. The question you are asking is what can be done about someone refusing to listen to advice. Not what he is doing wrong.
    Perfect example of why "community" forums are poisonous to the health of a development team. These developers are wasting hundreds of hours trying to stem the tide of incessant bitchery that would never, ever abate so long as these entitled, unfortunate human beings don't get their way.

  19. #19
    Dreadlord Derivatives's Avatar
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    Heath isn't close to me in DPS. He did 14-15k less than me on Zon'ozz (in the same gear..), a single target fight where our guild just lets us stand there. As for the slimes, sure demo isn't the best for slime DPS, but some of the attempts there you should really see when I died. As for Gunship, it's demonology's weakest fight. I try do push for more (of course, but i'm still doing something wrong). I'm not saying i'm the best in the world. At least I admit it and try to improve. Some fights I do well though. Those tend to be the fights i've mastered. Others, needless to say, need work. He just doesn't care. As far as him being a loyal raider, he raids for us a couple weeks, disappeared for a while, reappears, raids with us periodically. He's never been demoted.

    P.S. It's possible a guildy sees this, but everyone understands the situation, EXCEPT certain officers.
    Last edited by Derivatives; 2012-02-26 at 10:26 PM.
    Power?!?! I'll show you POWER!!!

  20. #20
    Don't get me wrong, he could definitely improve, but based on a lot of these logs it seems like you're dramatizing the severity of the gap a little. He has worse gear than you, certainly-- he has 393 ilvl to your 396, but you're also using MWC, which is way better than its ilvl would indicate. So all things said I'd say you're in effect closer to 398. Differences in damage will also be exacerbated on Zon'ozz... and Destruction is way worse than Demonology for that fight because you can't abuse black phases and his ever-increasing damage taken (to be honest I have no idea why he wouldn't stay Affliction for that fight).

    I guess my question would be, what have you done to try and establish what his problem is that's causing the lower damage? If you've only said "hey your damage is bad" then I'm not surprised he didn't take it upon himself to change that... if you actually examined his logs and determined why it was so low, and took advice to him on how to fix it, then I'd say it's pretty unacceptable for him to say "you know you may be right, but I don't really care enough to change."

    ps I would say Spine and/or Hagara are Demonology's worst fights, but that's more because they both suck for all locks, regardless of spec >.> Demonology's actually really solid on Blackhorn, affliction/destruction happen to be better, but our ability to multidot still should put us ahead of most melee (except rogues >.> damn you BF)
    Last edited by Beskar; 2012-02-26 at 11:32 PM.
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