Thread: DW Norm as Prot

  1. #1

    DW Norm as Prot

    Greetings!

    So, as my guild progresses we'll get to Deathwing for our first time this or next week (yeah yeah, we are kind of casual so slow progress is still progress for us!).

    I will need to tank this fight, most probably alone (so far I've had a second tank only for Warmaster, even on Ultrax I solo tank it, getting a feral druid to pop bear and taunt when I'm out with a Fading Light debuff than quickly taunting back) and I could use some tips on the fight.

    I found this list of cooldown use from an old post here:
    "If you go Ysera first like most raids then you have:
    1 - dream + divine protection
    2 - Guardian of the Ancient Kings + Divine Protection
    3 - Hand of Protection yourself and click off the
    melee immunity buff as soon as the impale has landed
    4 - Guardian of Ancient Kings will be back up or alternatively you can just
    Divine Shield and then taunt + click off the buff after the impale."

    Planning on doing exactly so, I still found myself wondering something..
    Is Divine Protection (glyphed) with any use here? Should I make a separate Prot spec just for Deathwing?
    Should I change anything else (enchanting/gems)?

    All tips would be greatly appreciated!
    Armory:
    Last edited by Azurenys; 2013-04-29 at 12:34 AM.
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  2. #2
    Deleted
    Glyphed DP won't help you on impales. It's useful in the final phase for the Terrors debuff. But you should have enough cd's up to not worry about the 20% loss if you unglyph it.

    Then you can have an extra 20% CD up for impale everytime.

  3. #3
    I presume you're you're talking about normal so the biggest difference is that Ardent Defender and Guardian Spirit work as a cooldown on normal (don't on Heroic)

    Now, you should 1 Tank the fight allowing your DPS to kill the Tentacle before the second impale.

    1) Dream+DP
    2) Guardian
    3) AD OR GSpir
    4) Guardian

    Now, if your DPS is not high enough then just use HOP/Bubble to clear off the second impale but don't sit in the immunity too long or else your melee will be one-shot.

    Just wait for the mob to start casting impale, HOP, take the hit and spam your /cancelaura Hand of Protection, Divine Shield to come out of it asap and make sure to taunt.

    You can use a lot of other cooldowns like Rallying Cry+Holy Pala SAC, have a Shadowpriest take it heroic style but I doubt you need to. Your gear is more than fine, I killed it with far lesser gear and have seen other tanks do otherwise.

    You're gemming and enchanting is fine but there is room for some improvement:

    My armory: http://eu.battle.net/wow/en/characte...ifire/advanced

    You should:

    - Copy my glyphs and spec http://eu.battle.net/wow/en/characte...talent/primary
    - You have points in the WOG Talent and the WOG Glyph which means you are casting WOG too much on yourself, stop that. You should have faith in your healers and your WOG makes almost no difference unless it's a life and death situation
    - At this point in content your primary focus should be damage output. I am reforged for hit and expertise because I like ranks and I like to contribute to my raid DPS helping our approach to bosses better. In the guild where I downed HC Madness I would do around 40k DPS and around 18-26 on other fights (I have numerous top20 ranks everywhere, in both Firelands and DS). However the number doesn't matter, I practically was half to one DPS which just helps killing stuff faster. You don't need to reforge for hit and exp but consider it when you pick up more gear
    - With reckoning and the point in hallowed ground you should see a DPS increase (auto threat increase) and its much more utile
    - You are overcapped on CTC, run the CTC macro with Kings Buff only and then remember you get around 0.68 % from Horn of Winter or Battle Shoult. This means more room for expertise/hit, or stamina in gemming

    For glyphs, follow my set.
    - Swapping WOG for CS Crit chance, DPS reasons as I explained above
    - Major glyphs, DP glyphed is only useful on: Warlord, Yorsh'Aj.
    - Always use: LOH + Ascetic Crusader
    - Swap between Hand of Salvation + Focused Shield (if single target fight like the first 5 bosses, then use Salvation on the last 3)

    Your consecration glyph is simply useless, consecration is not significant in your output except during specific times in a fight

    Trinkets:

    Do you have Tol Barad trinket? Use it on Warlord, Yorsh, Blackhorn (Warmaster Heroic, not normal).

    Morchock, Spine, Madness use defensive trinkets like Indomitable Pride+Dodge stacking trinket (I prefer that to the VP trinket)

    Ultraxion / farm bosses use DPS trinkets like Strength stacking trinket (EoU) and Essence of Eternal Flame (macro'd into CS)

    ----

    Back to madness, for heroic I use Tol Barad and Stay of Execution. I hate stay of execution but it is incredible on that fight. If you have problems surviving impales, use that (it's from Firelands Rep Vendor). Pop it before each impale and enjoy.

    Hope I could help

    p.s. Get Blacksmithing instead of Mining
    Last edited by Lifire; 2012-02-26 at 12:12 PM.

  4. #4
    Overwhelmed with information! Thank you so much
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    Fractal Design Define R6 TG | be quiet! Dark Power Pro 11 650W | Asus ROG Swift PG279Q
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  5. #5
    The WoG Absorb is pretty nice on smoothing out bursty damage. Right before Impale for example.

  6. #6
    never glyph divine protection for madness
    paladins can easily deal with 8-10 impales pretty much on their own. you still havent used ardent defender which can also prevent a 1shot instead of divine shield or HoP if u prefer.

    vifire has the best advice and spec above^
    Last edited by announced; 2012-02-26 at 10:01 PM.

  7. #7
    Quote Originally Posted by Azurenys View Post
    Overwhelmed with information! Thank you so much
    Quote Originally Posted by announced View Post
    never glyph divine protection for madness
    paladins can easily deal with 8-10 impales pretty much on their own. you still havent used ardent defender which can also prevent a 1shot instead of divine shield or HoP if u prefer.

    vifire has the best advice and spec above^
    No problem :-) Glad I could help.

  8. #8
    Deleted
    Actually I have to disagree with non-WoG spec for this fight. If you are progressing, even if you use your cds properly, you should probably do this:

    Before the first impale, save your judgement and 3 holy power. As soon as he starts casting impale, throw in a WoG with a judgement followed right after. That will give you approx a 45k shield. It's quite helpful.

    You might however have a problem with solo tanking both adds in p2. It all comes down do your dps'rs skills. If they are not reliable, here are a few tips:

    Tank them ALWAYS inside the yellow bubble. That will slow down their attack speed and it's extremely helpful. I can't emphasize this any more than I am. Extremely. you can see where they'll spawn, because a kind of red lava-like thingies appear on the floor (much alike the bloods in previous phases).
    To help you gathering both adds while still inside the bubble, use a consecration on one of the spawn points, and quickly run inside the bubble. It will aggro it easily. To the other one, just an avenger's shield. This will put both adds on you.
    Save AW for these adds, that extra damage helps killing them off. After, make sure both adds are inside the bubble. Doesn't matter if you are inside, as long as they are. Use a Divine Protection once you get 2 stacks of tetanus. If you get to 5 stacks, Use a divine shield macro to quickly reset the stacks and cancel the divine shield. Adds will shortly die after this, most likely.
    If you do get a second set of adds, do as above. 2 stacks, DP should be ready to be used. Use it. At 4 stacks, use Guardian. If you get to 6 stacks, use ardent defender, and prepare to use you Lay on hands.
    They should die quickly. Then it's all about rotating raid cds to make sure no one dies in last platform. Your divine guardian is quite useful here.

    Good luck

  9. #9
    While I like most of the information Lifire gave, I am slightly bothered by his gemming (yes, to each their own and different outlooks on character performance). However, I feel that there are wasted stats that a person trying to progress should ignore. For example, parry/stam gem is a waste as you can easily convert that to a parry/mastery gem and put a mastery gem to stam = more stam. I personally have dropped going for socket bonuses in favor of more stam. Such as chest and legs are nothing but stam gems. I do use mastery/stam gems in yellow or blue sockets ~IF~ I need the mastery to push up to tCTC. I think I'm around six of them in my gear with everything else being straight stam.


    I pulled your character into Chardev and did some quick napkin math and was able to net you +4k health with minimal rework. http://chardev.org/?profile=357802 (Please note I have your character using Mastery/Stam food as it's much more optimal over using Feasts.)


    I do not advocate Resolve of Undying. The reason for this, is because in this tier, most of the damage that you should be concerned with, is unavoidable; so stam is ~slightly~ more favorable than avoidance.


    I do not know if you have access to Heroic Spidersilk Spindle, but I would use it over Fire of the Deep. I have to say though, that Stay of Execution is a godssend for Impales. Since you're solo tanking, do not be afraid to utilize HoP and Bubble to cancel out the damage from Impales to save your healers' mana and help manage personal CDs.



    EDIT: Also, for having the WoG spec...I personally say keep it. Damage Absorbed = Damage not taken = Healers conserving some mana.
    Last edited by shetan; 2012-02-27 at 11:40 AM.

  10. #10
    Having to WOG yourself at ONE given moment in a fight is NEVER a necessity to purposely glyph for it. If you have to rely on that then your healers are playing bad. Healers should both know that impale is incoming and precasting Greaters/Penance/NSwiftness+Htouch/DL is more than standard tbvh. (also when you use Indomitable Pride you instantly get a 80K shield after the impale which is sick)

    He is overcapped on avoidance which means he needs to get rid of his excess avoidance and pump more dodge/parry or stamina.

    About the gem, using a Parry/Stamina gem or a Mastery/Stamina gem nets the same Stamina GIVEN he picks up socket bonuses appropiately. 20+30/25+37, same either way:

    According to you shetan:

    50Mastery => 25Mastery+37 Stamina
    25Parry+37Stamina => 25Parry+25Mastery

    Both give the same results i.e. 50 Mastery, 25 Parry, 37 Stamina. Hence, I don't understand your remark.

    I agree with Heroic Spidersilk Spindle being strong and it should indeed be used (VP trinket is only viable for Prot Warriors) however, something you are forgetting.

    CTC (in short) is based upon Mastery, Dodge, Parry (yeah; STR contributes, base 5% etc. but that's not the point)

    => MASTERY is unimportant in terms of value.

    Hear me out, having more or less mastery does not actually improve your avoidance cap since all it does is contribute to your 102.4 cap. However, having more dodge & parry actually improves your avoidance to potentially dodge/parry an additional attack to what you may not have done had you had 1-3% less dodge/parry.

    This is why the Resolve of Undying is better as when I was pumping stamina, with that trinket and proper Parry reforging, I netted around 8% more dodge/parry avoidance:

    CTC capped 102.4
    around 57-58% Block (can't remember)
    18.5%Parry
    15.5% Dodge (+ ~3% Dodge from the trinket 10 Stacks = 18.5%)

    Then more parry from the Battle Shout/Str Flask+food etc.

    Had I not used the Dodge trinket I would be at 15.5 Dodge/Parry making me lose upwards of 6-9% dodge/parry possibilites.

    - Then again I use Essence of Eternal Flame+EoU on a lot of fights just for DPS, or use TB trinket on magic fights but that is for my playstyle. I also don't recomment Windwalk, landslide provides more DPS and windwalk's RNG procc is unreliable. It is good for prot warriors's etc for the extra Crit Block but for pallys more dodge at a non-given time doesn't actually benefit now does it?
    Last edited by Lifire; 2012-02-27 at 11:51 AM.

  11. #11
    Firstly, what do you classify as "overcapped on avoidance", Lifire? As far as I know, sitting right at 102.4%, as I linked him in the profile, is not being "overcapped" at all but rather, optimizing all around. Yes, I do agree that Landslide is better than Windwalk, and if you're refering to that model in my link, than that is a pure oversight on my part.



    I do not really see how you could be that low on dodge/parry (given your current gear) without the trinket when you were pushing stamina given I was almost 17% dodge/parry coming out of FL with stamina gems in most of my gear. Granted you are reforging for threat stats which I'm assuming you do so for parse hunting/10 man raid(?).

    ~NOTE~ I am not knocking 10 man raiding as I do raid in a 10 man environment that is currently progression on Heroic Spine.

    According to you shetan:

    50Mastery => 25Mastery+37 Stamina
    25Parry+37Stamina => 25Parry+25Mastery

    Both give the same results i.e. 50 Mastery, 25 Parry, 37 Stamina. Hence, I don't understand your remark.
    My remark was Parry/Stam gem (25/37) > Parry/Mastery (25/25) and then potentially a Mastery gem (50) > Stam (75). You misread what I was trying to say and it does seem a bit confusing in that wall of text.


    I personally sit with 18% dodge/18.2% parry and 61.37% block with 251k buffed hp. Is my health a bit excessive? Maybe. However, I feel that as a tank, my job is to survive and allow the DPS to worry about DPS'ing. If I can contribute, sure; but a dead tank = dead DPS = no progression or even a potentially wasted combat rez that could have been saved for someone else at a different point in the fight.

    Yes, I know your content is done and your gemming / reforging needs to not be explained. I just felt that it is wrong to suggest to a player who is still progressing to copy your set up in gems, etc when he, more than anyone, needs to focus on surviving being the ~sole~ tank for his group. I know that it is not just the unavoidable damage that will kill you, but a combination of unavoidable/avoidable; but being able to vastly shrink the unavoidable through absorbs/resists, is much more preferable.

    Yes, in the setup I showed him, his parry is substationally higher than dodge, but that is, in part, due to the gear that he is wearing. I am a bit limited while at work to the options I can show him/offer to adjust that a bit.



    I will agree that glyphing WoG is lackluster, but there really isn't much else for that third glyph slot. I run CS glyph simply because I only use WoG at certain points in a fight (IE: Physic Drain, Focused Assault, Dragon Breath, Impale) because again, absorbed damage = damage not taken / lessening the chance of a tank death due to unavoidable/avoidable mechanics.

  12. #12
    - Then again I use Essence of Eternal Flame+EoU on a lot of fights just for DPS, or use TB trinket on magic fights but that is for my playstyle. I also don't recomment Windwalk, landslide provides more DPS and windwalk's RNG procc is unreliable. It is good for prot warriors's etc for the extra Crit Block but for pallys more dodge at a non-given time doesn't actually benefit now does it?
    I'd not listen to this. Windwalk is less valuable past the ctc cap but it's still provides about 60 or so percent of its value. They haven't dropped deathwing... He is obviously in raid content his group views as progression and your telling him to drop survivability for more dps as a general rule? The only reason i can see for this is if your healers are really amazing and your dps is lacking. Or some heroic fights...

    And the only time Windwalk will provide anything extra to a ctc capped warrior is if the proc is up during shield block...

    I'd say it's simple if your in a progression phase still get to the ctc cap then begin replacing anything over with stamina gems keeping in mind the best net gain from regemmings (ESP red sockets with so-so bonuses) is to just ignore the socket bonus.

    Once you're on farm mode, do what ever you want.
    Last edited by Guzug; 2012-02-27 at 03:27 PM.

  13. #13
    - I was just referring to his original setup about "overcapping".

    - It was indeed confusing with the Parry/Mastery vs 75 Stamina gem

    - @Guzug: Windwalk is simply irrelevant but should only be swapped out for LS when he feels the necessity. I am simply telling him the entire story for DW Normal now, and later when he picks up more DS Normal gear/potentially attacks heroics. I always mentioned not to copy my reforging but simply my spec & glyphs

    You're gemming and enchanting is fine but there is room for some improvement:
    My armory: http://eu.battle.net/wow/en/characte...ifire/advanced
    You should:
    - Copy my glyphs and spec http://eu.battle.net/wow/en/characte...talent/primary
    - @Shetan I picked up the hit & exp cap for

    (a) DPS contribution on the last 4 bosses
    (b) The ability to not even have a single sweat about threat, I used to play with top10 DPS everywhere and if I don't pull my threat weight yes, they pop everything at once and it's my job to hold aggro. A single miss is for me a wasted DPS and THREAT generator and a GCD loss with taunts, proving less raid utility and DPS.

    - Remember, the more DPS you and your raid do, the quicker shit dies, the easier shit becomes.
    (c) Ofcourse I enjoy parsing and without threat stats is becomes harder
    (d) 10Man does indeed require more DPS from tanks then in 25Man

    At the current gear stage people should not mindlessly gem for Stamina to ultimately rely on it. He is doing normals where Stamina plays little to no significant rule. It is up to him and his guild to play as they please and take the improvement route they find suitable to their tempo. Providing different opinions and scenarios is what we are all doing to give him different perspectives and to select the one appropriate or to simply use different methods and find the most suitable for him.

    Lastly, you could all probably pump more hp than me but I still have flawlessly cleared content. That simply means you can too with less HP. Stamina can only give you so much to take hits/magic hits when you're falling behind on cd's. Even during progression on e.g. Madness HC I would pump in more stamina gems because of having to avoid a ridiculous amount of impale damage and to have perfect cooldown rotation in p2 on the adds. But I would nonetheless run with 5-7 hit and 26 exp because me doing 40k, spiking 50k DPS means shit, adds, tentacles go down that much faster. Every little DPS matters. You should know best @Shetan if you are doing Spine HC.

    Tank DPS is also fun :-D

    GOOD LUCK OP and I'm glad we swapped ideas Shetan & Guzug

    p.s. 102.4 should only be aimed with buffs (kings&how or bshout and w/o food buff)
    Last edited by Lifire; 2012-02-27 at 05:20 PM.

  14. #14
    Quote Originally Posted by Vifire View Post
    A single miss is for me a wasted DPS and THREAT generator and a GCD loss with taunts, proving less raid utility and DPS.
    Just nit-picking, but Taunts aren't on the GCD.

  15. #15
    You're right, Lifire, this content ~can~ be cleared with less health. Even less gear if you're good with executing mechanics. Cémanana from Arakarahm did it with Heroic T12 gear. But why not optimize the gear that makes both you and your healers feel comfortable with?


    Yea, every bit of DPS does matter, especially on Heroic Spine, but I'm not touching the Tendons as the blood tank/amalg tank during lifts.



    Wasted DPS is wasted during a miss/dodge; but if you're concerned with threat after the first 15 seconds, you're doing something horribly wrong. But I personally chuckle at people who eat, sleep and breathe tank dps as the only thing that matters after you reach X or Y point either in progression or gear. While I know the tanking philosphy has changed over the course of the game since I've been playing, but it does make me wonder how long some people have been tanking. Call me old fashioned, but whatever, I'll always push surviving over tank dps first to a person progressing because as I said, a dead tank = dead DPS which equates to no loot.




    EDIT:
    And honestly, mate, don't go flaunting the fact you've cleared content. I acknowledged that and gave credit where it was due. It may largely be due in part to your guild raiding a bit more than my 2 day guild that has been having both attendance/recruitment issues for the past four weeks.
    Last edited by shetan; 2012-02-28 at 01:37 PM.

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