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  1. #661
    The Insane DrakeWurrum's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ynna View Post
    I can't think of a weapon that would fit the Engineer.
    Stun baton. (i.e. mace)

    Also, I feel that Thieves lack a support-focused weapon option.

    I honestly think most classes do lack one area or another, though that may be intended for balance purposes. Guardians seem to lack long range options.
    I hope you haven't forgotten my role in this little story. I'm the leading man. You know what they say about the leading man? He never dies.

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  2. #662
    While other classes may lack something here and there the Guardian lacks more then ALL classes from what I've personally seen in beta and or played myself and Long Range shouldn't be one of them since Arenanet said every class should be viable range and melee right now Guardian is not really Viable at all at range but in WvW situations you can't get in Melee if there is heavy fire especially at front of a Gate. (Sucks when you can't even hit the Guys 25Feet above you on the wall kind of pathetic honestly ). And if you can't do range damage to help get those pesky players off the keep walls you are very limit if not useless with putting up a few buffs when you can. Thats just boring if you can't do damage in between those cooldowns because your just standing there at that point waiting. ( Even the Grip on the Greatsword will hit someone ontop of a keep but the Pull part will not work =( , But I can see that not working for fairness / balance ).

    In PvE I didn't really use the staff or Scepter as Melee seemed to be the way to go to be most efficient but from when I did want to use the scepter and staff It seemed good in a PvE scenario and not to many complaints there ( Or could be because I didn't need to attack a mob standing higher up on a ledge or cliff at range =D Then I may of been a little angry hehe)

    I did love my Thief support weapons or not =D Shortbow was really fun to play with.

  3. #663
    Herald of the Titans Ynna's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by DrakeWurrum View Post
    Stun baton. (i.e. mace)

    Also, I feel that Thieves lack a support-focused weapon option.

    I honestly think most classes do lack one area or another, though that may be intended for balance purposes. Guardians seem to lack long range options.
    Yeah, a stun baton wouldn't be too bad, but any other Mace design would look off. And the only reason to give them that would be if they were lacking in a part of the game, which (and I have very limited experience with the profession) I don't really see.

    As for Thieves, I can't help but wonder if players who are drawn to the Thief-archetype are really all that interested in support. Probably a few of them are, but there can't be that many. I could be wrong of course, and in terms of balance it's probably best if all profession can do everything decently, but yeah, would a lot of people play a support Thief.

    Quote Originally Posted by degonite View Post
    While other classes may lack something here and there the Guardian lacks more then ALL classes
    I really don't think that's true. As far as I've seen, Guardians are mostly lacking in long range, but are pretty competent in every other area (Support, Control, Damage, Melee). Our skillset is diverse enough without lacking coherence. We've got plenty of interesting tools. Yeah, there could be some tweaking here and there, but overall -barring the ranged thing- I think the Guardian is in a good spot.
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  4. #664
    The Insane DrakeWurrum's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ynna View Post
    Yeah, a stun baton wouldn't be too bad, but any other Mace design would look off. And the only reason to give them that would be if they were lacking in a part of the game, which (and I have very limited experience with the profession) I don't really see.
    Tool Kit is their only real melee weapon option, when most professions have a minimum of two for both melee and range.

    As for Thieves, I can't help but wonder if players who are drawn to the Thief-archetype are really all that interested in support. Probably a few of them are, but there can't be that many. I could be wrong of course, and in terms of balance it's probably best if all profession can do everything decently, but yeah, would a lot of people play a support Thief.
    You say that like no Thief is interested in Venomous Aura or Shadow Refuge!
    I hope you haven't forgotten my role in this little story. I'm the leading man. You know what they say about the leading man? He never dies.

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  5. #665
    Like I said just my opinion I could be wrong of that just how I felt from playing other classes. Melee was 100% perfect for me not to strong and or weak Just like a Guardian should be. Just really frustrated at range for the most partl. Will main a Guardian come release Just really hope they fix the Staff or Scepter from a PvP point of view. Like said PvE I was fine I mainly ran around mainly with a Mace/Shield and Greatsword and would Switch to range depending of the fight or what I was doing. Structured PvP Was a Blast with Greatsword/Mace though very good at keeping enemies away or close to me. Really helped Capturing points by punting a player then pulling players off points worked good for me anyway =D.

    To be on topic I wouldn't mind a long or shortbow that Fired blue arrows I like bows over rifles =P But I'm happy with the weapons we have now as long as we can be better at range in PvP , I'm not asking for Mega damage but a little bit of damage would be better then not being able to hit anyone on a keep wall =D

  6. #666
    Herald of the Titans Ynna's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by DrakeWurrum View Post
    Tool Kit is their only real melee weapon option, when most professions have a minimum of two for both melee and range.
    But things like Rifle or Flamethrower work perfectly fine in melee range, don't they? I would assume that a Flamethrower is mainly short range. I didn't play the Engineer extensively, so I don't know, but as long as you can handle your own in melee range, adding a melee weapon would just be flavor.

    Quote Originally Posted by DrakeWurrum View Post
    You say that like no Thief is interested in Venomous Aura or Shadow Refuge!
    After my post I went to look it up. I made a Thief Support Build and I think it can work perfectly fine. The support doesn't come from protecting allies, like the Guardian does, but from increasing the potential of your friends, which is what support is ultimately about.
    I will admit that they have very little in terms of granting boons, making Compassion a pretty meaningless stat. Even when it comes to getting boons yourself, you're left out.
    Quote Originally Posted by degonite View Post
    Just really frustrated at range for the most part. Will main a Guardian come release Just really hope they fix the Staff or Scepter from a PvP point of view.
    They don't really need any kind of fixing, just tweaking. And that's the bad part, actually. Those are the only weapons that make sense as ranged, so the easiest fix to our problem is changing the skills on one of them. Because, let's be real: the chance that we actually get a new weapon is relatively low. But not getting a new weapons would mean that people who like how the Staff or the Scepter works get screwed.
    Last edited by Ynna; 2012-05-09 at 10:24 PM.
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  7. #667
    The Insane DrakeWurrum's Avatar
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    I think they just need to increase the range of the Staff, and tweak the 2 to be more reliable damage. It seems like "slow-moving orb that you belatedly detonate" is not the best method of long range damage.

    That being said, the Staff is obviously more about supporting allies than about hitting things from long range, so adding a Longbow or a Rifle to give a long-range weapon option both make much more sense.
    They'd be the first profession to mix martial and magical ranged weapons.

    Quote Originally Posted by Ynna View Post
    But things like Rifle or Flamethrower work perfectly fine in melee range, don't they? I would assume that a Flamethrower is mainly short range. I didn't play the Engineer extensively, so I don't know, but as long as you can handle your own in melee range, adding a melee weapon would just be flavor.
    Well that's like saying other ranged weapons can't work in melee range. As a Thief, I'm not discouraged from going into melee on either Pistols or Shortbow.


    After my post I went to look it up. I made a Thief Support Build and I think it can work perfectly fine. The support doesn't come from protecting allies, like the Guardian does, but from increasing the potential of your friends, which is what support is ultimately about.
    I will admit that they have very little in terms of granting boons, making Compassion a pretty meaningless stat. Even when it comes to getting boons yourself, you're left out.
    Well that's pretty much what I was getting at, we don't have a weapon specifically dedicated to supporting a group, the way Guardians do with Staff. That doesn't bother me so much as the simple fact that Mesmers and Necros have more weapon combinations than Thieves.

    Guardians actually have the second-most weapon combos.
    Last edited by DrakeWurrum; 2012-05-09 at 10:45 PM.
    I hope you haven't forgotten my role in this little story. I'm the leading man. You know what they say about the leading man? He never dies.

    If you give in to your impulses in this world, the price is that it changes your personality in the real world. The player and character are one and the same.

  8. #668
    Hey I was just liking the Idea of a Holy Bow I know it won't happen =D , But like said that means at least the "1" skill on the staff or scepter might change and maybe a tweaking to the Orb of Light. The rest of the skills I did not have a problem with. Marty and switching to a Greatsword was pretty fun =D. Didn't get to try that in a PvP situation though. Or maybe make the "1" skill like the utility Maybe make it so you can switch from the Ground Level AoE to a Single Target ability so that we can hit people at a higher level. I know that last idea won't happen but it would make everyone happy =D

  9. #669
    Herald of the Titans Ynna's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by DrakeWurrum View Post
    Well that's like saying other ranged weapons can't work in melee range. As a Thief, I'm not discouraged from going into melee on either Pistols or Shortbow.
    I just think that not having melee weapons is a lot better than not having ranged weapons in this game. Not having melee weapons doesn't actually stop you from doing anything. An Engineer doesn't really lose any functionality by not having a melee weapon.

    Quote Originally Posted by DrakeWurrum View Post
    Well that's pretty much what I was getting at, we don't have a weapon specifically dedicated to supporting a group, the way Guardians do with Staff. That doesn't bother me so much as the simple fact that Mesmers and Necros have more weapon combinations than Thieves.
    Yeah, I can see why that would be a problem. It might even be harder to fix, since no remaining weapon would both fit the Thief and fit a support role. (Maybe an off-hand Sword or Axe that gives things like Vigor and Swiftness?) But I actually like the way Thief-support is really focused on applying conditions.

    Wow, we really stopped talking about Guardians, didn't we?
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  10. #670
    I think the staffs first ability should be some kind of long range attack, and similar to the mesmers staff attack, in the sense that it does damage and applies conditions or boons.

    Or...make the first staff attack a long range attack that does more damage with each boon you have on yourself.

    I feel like we pretty much need a 1200 range weapon, and that it has to be the staff since staves are the only caster weapon with a 1200 range. We'd lose our only aoe we can spam if they changed the staff attack though, so I say give the scepter the first staff attack and increase its range to 900.

  11. #671
    The Insane DrakeWurrum's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by grandpab View Post
    I think the staffs first ability should be some kind of long range attack, and similar to the mesmers staff attack, in the sense that it does damage and applies conditions or boons.

    Or...make the first staff attack a long range attack that does more damage with each boon you have on yourself.

    I feel like we pretty much need a 1200 range weapon, and that it has to be the staff since staves are the only caster weapon with a 1200 range. We'd lose our only aoe we can spam if they changed the staff attack though, so I say give the scepter the first staff attack and increase its range to 900.
    Yeah, Mesmers have the advantage of using Staff, Scepter, and the Greatsword as ranged weapons, which means they get to have one for long-range damage and one for Support.
    I hope you haven't forgotten my role in this little story. I'm the leading man. You know what they say about the leading man? He never dies.

    If you give in to your impulses in this world, the price is that it changes your personality in the real world. The player and character are one and the same.

  12. #672
    Yeah I wouldn't complain about a 900 or 1200 range attack just as long as its more viable =D. Mesmers are a really fun class though to bad I'm a paladin type class player at heart =)

  13. #673
    If they are going to give us a new weapon entirely, as a ranged option, they'll probably remove one of our weapon options, to balance things out. I don't care much for the mace, or the scepter, so I wouldn't mind either of those two disappearing. How about you guys? If they decide to do this, which weapon would you be least upset about if they removed it as an option?

  14. #674
    Quote Originally Posted by TheJekyll View Post
    If they are going to give us a new weapon entirely, as a ranged option, they'll probably remove one of our weapon options, to balance things out. I don't care much for the mace, or the scepter, so I wouldn't mind either of those two disappearing. How about you guys? If they decide to do this, which weapon would you be least upset about if they removed it as an option?
    The mace is too engraved into the image of the Guardian. Literally (see: GW2 Guardian concept image).

    As for new weapons, well... I'm the sort that prefers not to have any such restrictions. I like a Greatsword-wielding Elementalist as much as a Guardian whipping pistols about in a Gun Kata.

  15. #675
    Herald of the Titans Ynna's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by TheJekyll View Post
    If they are going to give us a new weapon entirely, as a ranged option, they'll probably remove one of our weapon options, to balance things out. I don't care much for the mace, or the scepter, so I wouldn't mind either of those two disappearing. How about you guys? If they decide to do this, which weapon would you be least upset about if they removed it as an option?
    I can't see any weapon disappearing, actually. Each weapon already has a distinct functionality. But if I had to choose: Hammer, because I didn't like what it did one bit. Which won't happen, because a large hammer is an important part of the archetype.
    I also understand that giving Guardians a new weapon has a lot of problems, which is why it's probably the least likely option. First of all does it take more work to create a whole new weapon. Then other professions would want a new weapon as well.

    Staff: This is our support weapon. Losing it would mean that all those words about "healers will tend to prefer the Guardian" go out of the window.
    Sword: First of all: Swords are awesome. It's also the weapon that gives us a chance of catching up and defending against melee. Giving it up in order to get a ranged weapon would just be silly.
    Greatsword: Losing this would mean we stop having melee range AoE.
    Hammer: Like I said above, I don't think we'd lose out on too much, but it's just too iconic to remove. Making the Hammer better is a more realistic option
    Mace: We can't lose this, for the same reason as a Hammer. The skills on the weapon are also pretty good, and defensive Guardians would lose important tools.
    Scepter: I personally didn't like the Scepter, but it also fills a niche, namely ranged control. We could be giving this up for a ranged weapon, but at that point I'm left to wonder why they didn't just change the skills on the Scepter.
    Retired Holy Priest
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  16. #676
    Quote Originally Posted by Ynna View Post
    I can't see any weapon disappearing, actually. Each weapon already has a distinct functionality. But if I had to choose: Hammer, because I didn't like what it did one bit. Which won't happen, because a large hammer is an important part of the archetype.
    I also understand that giving Guardians a new weapon has a lot of problems, which is why it's probably the least likely option. First of all does it take more work to create a whole new weapon. Then other professions would want a new weapon as well.

    Staff: This is our support weapon. Losing it would mean that all those words about "healers will tend to prefer the Guardian" go out of the window.
    Sword: First of all: Swords are awesome. It's also the weapon that gives us a chance of catching up and defending against melee. Giving it up in order to get a ranged weapon would just be silly.
    Greatsword: Losing this would mean we stop having melee range AoE.
    Hammer: Like I said above, I don't think we'd lose out on too much, but it's just too iconic to remove. Making the Hammer better is a more realistic option
    Mace: We can't lose this, for the same reason as a Hammer. The skills on the weapon are also pretty good, and defensive Guardians would lose important tools.
    Scepter: I personally didn't like the Scepter, but it also fills a niche, namely ranged control. We could be giving this up for a ranged weapon, but at that point I'm left to wonder why they didn't just change the skills on the Scepter.
    The most logical option would be for them to overhaul the scepter. And I hope they do.

  17. #677
    Herald of the Titans Ynna's Avatar
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    Yeah, I think the problem becomes clear, doesn't it. Adding new weapon is probably too much work, changing an existing weapon would leave us wanting in another area.

    I'm really curious to see what Arenanet comes up with.

    And let's not forget the possibility of Arenanet just saying: "Yeah, Guardians are balanced by their lack of ranged options."
    Retired Holy Priest
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  18. #678
    Scarab Lord Loaf Lord's Avatar
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    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SCeqdmyfJKY Found a pretty decent greatsword guardian pvp video.

    ---------- Post added 2012-05-10 at 05:44 PM ----------

    It's looking like melee dps guardians are ignoring the radiance tree altogether.

  19. #679
    Guardians don't need a new weapon.

    They have enough choice as it is - every profession is lacking a bit in some areas. It's not like you can't hit anything at all at range. If you don't feel that you're strong enough at keep warfare, then WvWvW is about more then just the keeps - there are other objectives you may be more suited for.
    "English doesn't so much borrow words from other languages as follows them into a dark alley, hits them over the head and goes through their pockets for loose vocabulary."

  20. #680
    So you telling me I'm not allowed to attack a target that is ontop of a keep is fair? I'm not alowed to charge up there to attack them is fair? I'm not allowed to grip them down to ground level and fight them in fair? It's not that we don't feel strong enough It's we can't do jack shit in WvW unless a target is on ground level. Thats not lacking thats totally imbalanced in my opinion. I'm not asking for a nuke or amazing damage but a little bit is better then 0. I don't need a new weapon but just at least 1 skill thats worth something haha I'm fine with skills 3-5 on Staff and 1-3 on scepter. I feel as though scepter is better for close range though and doesn't need fixing. So that makes me think the Staff should be tweaked a bit. But if they end up changing scepter I will be okay with it.

    Arena.net wouldn't make one class not good at Keep Warfare ethier why should I play a Guardian and be forced to do side objectives becuase that's all I'm good at it goes against there whole philosophy that everything should be balanced. That would not be balanced.
    Last edited by degonite; 2012-05-11 at 01:12 AM.

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