I'll guard you. Let them come through ME first! - Guardian discussion thread.

[Ynna]

So beta weekend 2 has ended, so I figure it's time to get some impressions from everyone. For me the weekend was a bit disappointing, having only played 8 hours or so and WvWvW not being testable on my server because we were dominating too hard.

General impressions:
The profession hasn't changed too much from last beta, with only one weapon getting somewhat of an overhaul.
The tiered traits are okay, although the trait that gives you healing whenever you apply a boon is either in the wrong line, or located too far up the line it's in.
The fact that the traits haven't changed much is a bit of a downer, since that means that Zeal is still the worst thing about the Guardian, apart from our ranged capabilities. The traits themselves don't always work well with the line they're in. A major offender is the Virtues-line which provides great stats for a supportive Guardian, but doesn't really offer all that much in terms of support. Radiance is also noteworthy for still not providing additional benefits for getting Precision. Zeal (to elaborate on my earlier comment) is still too much focused on Spirit Weapons and Symbols, which is bad for a line that should be somewhat mandatory for aggressive Guardians. This is made worse by the fact that all the traits that make Symbols better (some would say, passable) are all located in a line that is pretty strictly limited to support or defense.

In terms of weapons, not much has changed. I still very much dislike the Hammer. People have told me that it's actually pretty good, but I've have yet to see it. It's slow, applying the Symbol is annoying, the punt-ability doesn't offer anything the Guardian would ever want (namely, getting the enemy away from him) and the abilities rely too much on internal synergy.
The Staff has gotten a small, but rather meaningful change. The Line of Warding is now ground-targetable, which does improves the usefulness somewhat, but the long cooldown and long cast-time hamper its use as both a reactive defensive tool and an aggressive one. The devs have stated that they feel it's some kind of balancing act. They made it ground-targetable, so they don't feel like it should cast faster. Personally, I'd rather seen it as an instant cast, while ditching the targetableness.
The Scepter has seen some changes, most importantly the range is now 900 for every skill and Smite is now ground-targetable. Smite did lose the white outline, so it's hard to keep tracking it. The spamable skill is also too slow to be useful outside of terrible opponents in PvP and PvE. The Scepter, like the Hammer, also relies too much on internal synergy, because the best way to do damage with it is: 3-skill to lock them down, Smite, and then spam your 1-skill. Making this worse is the fact that our off-hand don't really play too well with the Scepter.
What is funny is that when you combine the Scepter and the Hammer, they become quite allright.

The changes to the Scepter are a nice sentiment, but they don't fix the greater issue that plagues our profession, namely: we're crap at range. The good thing is that the discussion is no longer about whether we should be able to do better, but about how we can improve. The devs have told us that they are looking into the issue, probably by improving the Scepter further. They've also crushed the dreams of getting a Bow or Rifle before launch.

Apart from range, the biggest problem seems to be mobility. If we're going to suck at range (which, unless the future changes to the Scepter are amazing, we're probably destined to be) we should have enough tools to close the distance. We have two weapons that do a rather good job at that (although the Greatsword leap is sometimes unreliable), but when not using those weapons, Judge's Intervention becomes close to mandatory. Also, and I don't know how this is for other classes, getting around the (PvP) map is rather cumbersome, because we don't have short-cooldown mobility increases (outside of the Staff's Symbol).
This also means that we have no reliable way of escaping fights as soon as they turn bad.

What the Guardian does do right is pretty much everything I haven't mentioned before. They do good damage (only lacking a bit in the burst-front), offer great support, and they can control a static point pretty much indefinitely. When traited and played right, a Guardian won't go down at all.
It's also a really flexible profession, capable of doing multiple things well within one build.

Tested Builds
I've tested out a couple of builds (not as much as I would have liked) in Structured PvP, in order to see what does and doesn't work. If there are any questions about these builds, I'll gladly answer them. I'm not goint to break down every one of them, because this post is mindboggingly huge as it is.

Mobile Condition build
Rune of the Baelfre
Sword (superior battle)/Torch(superior smoldering) + Greatsword(superior strength)
Zeal: 10 (Firey Wrath [sic])
Radiance: 30 (Blind Exposure, Signet Mastery, Inscribed Removal)
Valor: 25 (Retributive Armor, Defender's Flames)
Honor: 5

Utilities: Signet of Resolve, Signet of Wrath, Judge's Intervention, Bane Signet, Renewed Focus

Plus: Decent damage, good gap-closing, quick access to the heal, good on attack, good against ranged, strong 1v1
Cons: Low survivability, low mobility + no way to escape (ouside of gapclosing), very little control, probe to being ambushed, bad at range

Boon/Damage Build
Rune of Air
Staff (Intelligence)/Greatsword (Superior Strength)
Zeal: 30 Firey Wrath[sic], Greatsword Power, Zealous Blade
Radiance: 10 Blind Exposure
Virtues: 30 Resolute, Purity of Resolve, Judgemental

Utilities: Shelter, Hold the Line, Smite Conditions, Contemplation of Purity

Plus: Mix of offense, support and controls, good damage while fully booned up, excellent against conditions, nice speed, flexible
Cons: Low defense, unfocused, a lot of troubles with ranged (and I mean a lot), no gapclosers

Point-defense Build
Mace(leeching)/Focus(Blood) + Scepter(Purity)/Shield((Energy)
Radiance: 20 (Healer's Retribution, Shimmering Defense)
Valor: 30 (Purity, Defender's Shield, Honorable Shield)
Honor: 20 (Pure of Heart, Empowering Might)

Utilities: Shelter, Hold the Line, Wall of Reflection, Sanctuary, Renewed Focus

Plus: Great defense, never goes down, great control, good defense against ranged, good against groups
Con: Low damage, no mobility, weak offense (especially against ranged), relatively low support, weak on 1v1

Pure Support
Rune of the Water
Mace(Water)+Shield(Hyrdomancy)/Staff(water)
Radiance: 5
Valor: 10 (Strength in numbers)
Honor: 30 (Superior Aria, Writ of Exaltion, Battle Presence)
Virtues: 25 (Resolute, Fearless)

Plus: Great Support (duh), okay control, noticeably makes a group better/live longer, okay mobility
Cons: Low damage, weak when alone, slow to accomplish goal

[Exedore]

I still very much dislike the Hammer. People have told me that it's actually pretty good, but I've have yet to see it. It's slow, applying the Symbol is annoying, the punt-ability doesn't offer anything the Guardian would ever want (namely, getting the enemy away from him) and the abilities rely too much on internal synergy.

I see it being useful in WvW, but nowhere else. In WvW, the knockback ability is actually useful to get opponents away from your allies or siege weapons. In addition, The immobilize complements use in WvW well.

[vicious796]

I continued to run with a mace/shield and sword/shield to have a defense first with melee healing playstyle and a quick change to mobility and muted offense with the sword. Honestly, it suits me well and I've had a good time not dying very easily, even at low levels with limited abilities at my disposal. Once I had SoJ, Sanctuary, and WoR (which, honestly, may go later on because it has limited actual use) I simply was not going to die 1v1 and had a solid chance of holding off a 2v1 or 3v1 long enough to get some help.

[Deleted]

@Ynna: Nice post, some good points and made me laugh when you described the rotation of the scepter (3-lockdown > 2 -smite > 1), as that's what i was doing.

What I would like to add though is that the torch seems to worked well with the scepter. The 5th ability (I forgot the name), has a secondary ranged ability whereby you can transfer burning to them, and then the 4th skill (the fire breath) is always good if they do happen to get close with its escalating damage.

Finally, we do have a speed boost skill: "Retreat [Shout]" - which provides Swiftness and Aegis(?) to nearby allies.

[DrakeWurrum]

@Ynna: Nice post, some good points and made me laugh when you described the rotation of the scepter (3-lockdown > 2 -smite > 1), as that's what i was doing.

What I would like to add though is that the torch seems to worked well with the scepter. The 5th ability (I forgot the name), has a secondary ranged ability whereby you can transfer burning to them, and then the 4th skill (the fire breath) is always good if they do happen to get close with its escalating damage.

Finally, we do have a speed boost skill: "Retreat [Shout]" - which provides Swiftness and Aegis(?) to nearby allies.

Yeah, I had good fun with the torch. I never managed to grab a Scepter I believe, but Torch was ridiculously fun. Especially once I realized it used blue fire...

[Ynna]

@Ynna: Nice post, some good points and made me laugh when you described the rotation of the scepter (3-lockdown > 2 -smite > 1), as that's what i was doing.

What I would like to add though is that the torch seems to worked well with the scepter. The 5th ability (I forgot the name), has a secondary ranged ability whereby you can transfer burning to them, and then the 4th skill (the fire breath) is always good if they do happen to get close with its escalating damage.

Finally, we do have a speed boost skill: "Retreat [Shout]" - which provides Swiftness and Aegis(?) to nearby allies.

Glad you liked it. I took quite some notes during the beta, so I hope the result is okay.

The first torch ability looks pretty damn awesome (breathing blue fire), but is actually mostly a support ability. It removes conditions, which is great, but the damage it does is negligible. (If I recall correctly it did something like 33 or 66 damage at level 80.) It currently has a nice psychological effect, but that will probably go away as soon as people learn the skills of other professions.

An we have a speedboost. Two, actually. Retreat is a good skill, but because of that it has a long cooldown (60 seconds) making it impractical to use just to get around. I really like the skill, but it's wasted on moving to another point, running to a dynamic event. The other skill is Symbol of Swiftness on the Staff. Unlike most people, I actually like the Staff, but swapping to a Staff just to get a (meager) speed boost isn't often worth it. (Especially not in PvP when your build doesn't really work with a Staff.)

[DrakeWurrum]

I still think they should change the name of Retreat to Charge.

---------- Post added 2012-06-12 at 12:44 PM ----------

BTW, some posts on Guardian and ranged weapons (specifically on the scepter):

Morrick.1296 said:

Could Smite get the target ring effect back please? It would help greatly

Yes we have talked about solutions here. We are trying different things with the target rings so bear with us this weekend.

I think this weapon also needs to get a range of 1200 with staff moving to a 600-900 range. I know it is different than other classes, but it just makes sense. To make up for that torch and maybe focus as well might need to get 1200 range also.

Jon

Since I like to triple post, obviously the speed of the orb will have to increase if I give it 1200 range…

[Fencers]

Put a bit of work into my Guardian this weekend. Got to like level 25ish or so. I felt the game was a bit easier this weekend for melee, less downtime between pulls sped up leveling quite a bit.

I like a lot of elements to the Guardian class but still can't seem to nail down a build or definite playstyle. Of all the GW2 classes, Guardian is the one I struggle the most with to grasp. Ended up running Sword/Focus & 2h Hammer for the most part.

Just felt all over the place.

Next weekend I'm going to try to get to 35-40ish on Guardian.

[Ynna]

Put a bit of work into my Guardian this weekend. Got to like level 25ish or so. I felt the game was a bit easier this weekend for melee, less downtime between pulls sped up leveling quite a bit.

I like a lot of elements to the Guardian class but still can't seem to nail down a build or definite playstyle. Of all the GW2 classes, Guardian is the one I struggle the most with to grasp. Ended up running Sword/Focus & 2h Hammer for the most part.

Just felt all over the place.

Is there any particular playstyle you want to achieve? I know you don't care for PvP, but if you have a preferred playstyle for PvE, I should be able to help you out. I think I used every weapon combination possible in PvE, but I foolishly didn't take any notes on them.

[Fencers]

Not really. I don't go into a class with a specific playstyle in mind. Just let the most fun &/or effective builds reveal itself over playtime. Basic weapon skills on Guardian felt fine for the most part. More the utility skills and traits were problematic for me. Synergy just didn't feel quite so awesome no matter how I throw them together. Trait lines were so all over the place- never felt I was getting more powerful by investing in any of them.

[Ynna]

I don't have much problems with our utilities (I suggest Judge's Intervention for pretty much every build), but yeah, our traits are a complete mess.

[Fencers]

I should have more SPs and an elite by next beta. Didn't quite reach 30 yet on Guardian or Elementalist. Next BWE, should have them both at that level. Hopefully, it's just a matter of unlocking more things to try on Guardian.

[GW2lacky]

I still very much dislike the Hammer. People have told me that it's actually pretty good, but I've have yet to see it. It's slow, applying the Symbol is annoying, the punt-ability doesn't offer anything the Guardian would ever want (namely, getting the enemy away from him) and the abilities rely too much on internal synergy.

Meh, to each their own...I had really good success with the hammer. Keeps me mobile which limits incoming damage as channeling Whirling Wrath meant standing still and taking a beating while channeling the ability. Also, fights are over faster (for me) using the hammer than any other weapon as a crit with Mighty Blow can take a mob's health down by half (when going with a Zeal/Damage/Boon build).

I wish the CC or punt could be replaced with a gap closer or keep the punt and give guardians decent range damage with a weapon switch. As it stands right now running around with the hammer means taking up a skill slot with Judge's Intervention as a gap closer if I want to have one. I've used Zealot's Embrace + Judge's Intervention to jump down the throat of a caster in WvW but its kind of a one trick pony as Ring of Warding isn't working all that well currently (I think the circle needs to be bigger to catch players that take more than two steps back).

[DrakeWurrum]

Can't you immob and THEN launch? Or would that still launch them?
Can't you at least use Ring of Warding first?

I distinctly remember a dev saying on the forums that you have an option with the hammer to use the launch skill without them going too far.

It's also worth noting that many times with melee weapons on my characters I would find myself wishing for a launch or a free dodge skill (like with Thief having Withdraw and RfI) so that I could give myself some breathing room while my heal skill ticked down. Just because it's a situational ability, doesn't mean it's useless.

---------- Post added 2012-06-12 at 02:00 PM ----------

I wish the CC or punt could be replaced with a gap closer or keep the punt and give guardians decent range damage with a weapon switch.

You should see my post above, containing dev comments about their direction with the Scepter and Staff.

[eschatological]

You can definitely ring a person with the hammer, then punt them, and they'll only go as far as the ring and then be knocked down, right in front of you. It kinda sucks to have to chain two skills to achieve that, but them being knocked down in front of you is pretty damn beautiful.

[DrakeWurrum]

You can definitely ring a person with the hammer, then punt them, and they'll only go as far as the ring and then be knocked down, right in front of you. It kinda sucks to have to chain two skills to achieve that, but them being knocked down in front of you is pretty damn beautiful.

I don't think it sucks at all. The Ring of Warding has the goal of keeping them close no matter what. When you've done that, your launch skill is then purely for interrupting their skills.

Without Ring of Warding down, you can then use it to get breathing room for a few seconds, for you OR for allies.

[GW2lacky]

You should see my post above, containing dev comments about their direction with the Scepter and Staff.

Aye, the septor is a lot of fun...but those orbs need to speed up a bit...I'm sure it will get fixed. It was pretty funny to watch an orb sail past a mob on the move due to its slowness and keep going only to hit an unintended target and pull agro from them as well.

[eschatological]

The orbs were much faster this BWE than they were during BWE1. I don't know if that was my perception, but those things were like rapidfire ping pong balls. Of pain.

[Deleted]

With the hammer knock-back/punt - what if they are immune to such affects? Will they take extra damage?

[WorldofWorkcraft]

I should have more SPs and an elite by next beta. Didn't quite reach 30 yet on Guardian or Elementalist. Next BWE, should have them both at that level. Hopefully, it's just a matter of unlocking more things to try on Guardian.

Be sure to have 10 or more skill points saved for your elite skills. Unfortunately they moved the defensive elite to the bottom-most tier, so you'd need 30 saved (10x2 to get to the last tier, then 10 (maybe more?) for that skill). I only tried the Charr Elite Warband one (call 2 buddies) and the Invulnerability/refresh one, both were meh.

As for other utilities, I find the 2 teleport skills (burn/heal) very useful and effective, especially combo wise. Teleport burn + greatsword jumping skill = combo granting fire aura. The passive ones with actives are nice too, though I can't tell how they scale. I should really look into combos more. I had a blast with my guardian, but still couldn't take down a damn champion spider alone (even at the end of my BWE2 when I tried switching to all defensive stuff). I did the Catacombs with my guardian and was using everything I had and we still got rocked plenty of times...

Heal/Utility skills I used most in dungeon: Healing Breeze (when used right is very good), Sanctuary (amazing WTF button), Purging Flames (great for AoE damage and condition removal...I had a poison on me that had a 2 minute duration on it...), "Retreat!" (saves lives both ways). There are plenty of other viable ones that I could have used but I was in a damage trait design and my heals weren't that great, else I may have subbed in other utilities (Merciful Intervention, "Hold the Line!", Bow of Truth, etc.)

Hold the Line...I just hear Mel Gibson screaming that in "The Patriot", thus allowing America to win the Revolutionary War and gain its freedom...Mel Gibson..where would we be without you?!