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  1. #1041
    Quote Originally Posted by DrakeWurrum View Post
    Definitely. They're kinda slow-moving, but w/e.
    I thought it was pretty funny when I was running away from a guardian, I could hear him throwing his little blue balls at me. I look back and see about 5 balls traveling through the air unable to catch me.

  2. #1042
    So I spent most of Sunday doing pvp all day, and it was a blast.
    Was running http://www.gw2db.com/skills/calc/gua...2180|2423|2|9| for my build. Second weapon set was the Hammer, and skill Nine was always being swapped out depending on what I needed/wanted. (like spirit hammer for more knockbacks)

    Just felt great in team fights with all the control/support/burning enemies. That and being basically unkillable in one on one fights was handy. Although lacked the damage when you had to turtle up and play defensive against a tougher player. But it was built for the team fights anyways.

    Always felt good getting those runners after a team fight as well. Switch to hammer, use Zealot's Embrace, and put Ring of warding around them. Or in the middle of the fight and an ally was down. Clear out the area around them with the shields bubble knockback, switch to hammer and ward. And then help rally them while the enemy players tried desperately to get inside to use the finisher. Good times

    Also had a question if anyone can answer it. Why wasn't Renewed Focus recharging virtue of courage? It would recharge both the others, but wasn't for courage. Was this intended or a bug? Would have been nice for more aegis/burning of my enemies

    Funny how I went into this BWE thinking my main was going to be a mesmer though. Guardian and engy were the only two I still hadn't tried. And just fell in love with guardian and couldn't stop playing it. For sure going to be the first thing I roll come release now.

  3. #1043
    Quote Originally Posted by Ynna View Post
    On another note: I've always claimed that people saying the Guardian doesn't go down fast enough had learn to play issues (although I said it nicer). After playing Elementalist for a day, I'm not so sure about that anymore. Although it could have been learn to play issues on my end, because I seemed to suck as an Elementalist.
    Probably a little bit of both. I've gone up against guardians that just don't die. The flip side is that they only tickle me. I believe they rely heavily on a very long lasting regeneration and protection boon, so condition removal would probably ruin their day.

    Edit: Is the Scepter really that good? I didn't test it out, apart from seeing if the range had changed. Next question: is it fun? Because it still seems very much that you need a "rotation" in order to deliver the best damage with it.
    It's good for certain builds and types of content. I found it very useful in PvE and WvW. In sPvP, not so much with the build and playstyle I was using. It's not going to win awards for doing a lot damage. But it's good for ranged support, or playing defensive or keep away.

    Quote Originally Posted by Lagmonster View Post
    So I spent most of Sunday doing pvp all day, and it was a blast.
    Was running http://www.gw2db.com/skills/calc/gua...2180|2423|2|9| for my build. Second weapon set was the Hammer, and skill Nine was always being swapped out depending on what I needed/wanted. (like spirit hammer for more knockbacks)
    What does Shield of the Avenger actually do? The description is very lacking and I never tried it out.

    Also had a question if anyone can answer it. Why wasn't Renewed Focus recharging virtue of courage? It would recharge both the others, but wasn't for courage. Was this intended or a bug? Would have been nice for more aegis/burning of my enemies
    It would always reset Virtue of Courage for me. Maybe it's not resetting the cooldown on the passive Aegis (once every 40(30 traited) seconds). I didn't pay attention to that.

    ---------- Post added 2012-07-24 at 12:08 AM ----------

    I ran an offense oriented primarily greatsword build in sPvP this past weekend. My goal was something that worked but didn't use spirit weapons. Here's the one I finally settled on, but I may still do some tweaking:
    http://www.gw2build.com/builds/simul....30.10.20.10.0

    I did a little testing and found that Zealous Blade heals for 25 every time something is hit (not affected by +healing as far as I could tell). With Whirling Wrath or against multiple players, that adds up pretty quick and definitely adds some survivability that seems lacking with the greatsword. Signet of Wrath pairs very well with Whirling Wrath and allows you to get all the damage off. Compared to Bane Signet, it's not stopped by stability and has a shorter cooldown and longer duration. Judge's Intervention helps power the Fiery Wrath trait and a great gap closer, so I eventually ended up on that with a build to power it. "Hold the Line" I'm not completely sure about. It's great for team support and the stun break and defensive benefit is amazing. But I found that my build was lacking stability, which is very important against knockdown builds. After going back and forth with "Stand Your Ground" (which now also grants retaliation), I found "Hold the Line" as the better overall choice. The stun break can be used to get out of the knockdowns almost instantly and with the blinds available, I could deal with future ones. "Stand Your Ground" still needs buffing.

    None of the elites seem all that impressive to me. I'm not keen on the idea of a third weapon swap with the Tomes. Although it's worth noting that Tome of Courage was nerfed. It no longer roots you, which is great, but you no longer gain a ton of extra HP. Gone are the days of using it at 3000 HP and still getting off the full heal. Renewed Focus needs a slight buff. I would prefer it as instant with no immunity or allow cast while moving or some type of anti-stun component.

    Playstyle was to basically root someone then Whirling Wrath, then use Binding Blade shortly after to pull them in and Whirling Wrath again. Sword/Shield is a more balanced set for defense against ranged and another burst cooldown. I tried scepter for a while in sPvP, but it's overall more for defending against melee than attacking or defending against a ranged opponent. Most of my trouble was against glass cannon builds, especially in a 2v1 scenario, and knockdown/daze spamming. I may try Renewed Focus as a counter some burst.

    One aside. I used to call symbols near worthless, but now that I've read up on combos, they're actually pretty good. They still suck offensively, but it's important to note that they're a Light field. If you do a whirl finisher (greatsword has two), it removes conditions.
    Last edited by Exedore; 2012-07-25 at 02:12 AM. Reason: Build link was wrong.

  4. #1044
    Quote Originally Posted by Exedore View Post
    What does Shield of the Avenger actually do? The description is very lacking and I never tried it out.
    Basically makes a shield that follows you around, and it puts up a barrier that stops ranged attacks from passing through it. No way to make it put up the barrier until you start attacking though. It also pulses, where it will be up for what felt like 6-8 seconds or so? Then would put up the barrier again if you are near it, or it would chase after you to get close and put it up again.

    Size wise, its a bit bigger then the shield weapon skill's bubble(the 5 skill, whatever it was called). And you can use the skill again to throw the shield at an enemy, cause some damage and cause weakness. But that destroys the shield, so has limited use.

    Quote Originally Posted by Exedore View Post
    It would always reset Virtue of Courage for me. Maybe it's not resetting the cooldown on the passive Aegis (once every 40(30 traited) seconds). I didn't pay attention to that.
    It just flat out wasn't resetting virtue of courage for me. I could blow all three virtues, use the skill. And it would reset the others, but courage would still be on cooldown. I'm not sure what was causing it, hopefully doesn't do it to me at release. Would have been great if it had been working, now that I know it should have been lol.

  5. #1045
    In this beta (and it started on the first) my worries about the class came to a near-completion.

    You would often, often see "LF1M Guardian" on Tournies. And that just kill the game, specially only having 1 type of map (capture/control the point). While you may say "You can make a team without one just as well as one with it", the problem with the statement is the clear advantage (not small one) to have one in your party.

    The most usual way to actually have a chance on it, would usually avoid combat or kill everyone else except the guardian, and thats a maybe.

    Not just me but some others will agree that the most fun and best games were the ones without guardians. If someone had a guardian and the other didn't it was pretty much set result. Sometimes even a Pug versus Coordinated skype team.

    Im posting this here, right into the lion's mouth , but the guardian class could use some adjustments. From what I hear some of the mechanics inside the guardian were faulty or lacking, but overall the balance of THE OWN class is a little broken (not comparing to other classes).

    I hope that is fixed to launch.
    Last edited by Zilong; 2012-07-25 at 01:16 AM.

  6. #1046
    Quote Originally Posted by Zilong View Post
    In this beta (and it started on the first) my worries about the class came to a near-completion.

    You would often, often see "LF1M Guardian" on Tournies. And that just kill the game, specially only having 1 type of map (capture/control the point). While you may say "You can make a team without one just as well as one with it", the problem with the statement is the clear advantage (not small one) to have one in your party.
    People are dumb, what can you do? I remember when WoW classic came out and everyone on Alliance side was making paladins to tank because they thought warriors were awful tanks. Turns out that warriors were the only end-game tanks (at that time) and paladins were pretty bad at it in comparison.

    What "clear advantage" do guardians provide compared to another profession choice? The only reason everyone wants a guardian is because in the current state of the sPvP tournament metagame, they have one role that's been "figured out". Once the game is out and a couple weeks pass, players will find alternative strategies, the metagame will shift, and everyone will look for the new hot profession.

  7. #1047
    Quote Originally Posted by Exedore View Post
    People are dumb, what can you do? I remember when WoW classic came out and everyone on Alliance side was making paladins to tank because they thought warriors were awful tanks. Turns out that warriors were the only end-game tanks (at that time) and paladins were pretty bad at it in comparison.

    What "clear advantage" do guardians provide compared to another profession choice? The only reason everyone wants a guardian is because in the current state of the sPvP tournament metagame, they have one role that's been "figured out". Once the game is out and a couple weeks pass, players will find alternative strategies, the metagame will shift, and everyone will look for the new hot profession.
    Guardian's have incredible area denial. That's the clear advantage they provide. No other class provides that kind of control over a capture point. It's not that they're a paladin archetype and people see them as tanks or healers. It's their actual abilities, which no other profession can provide.

    Hammer + Sword/Shield tank guardians. They can easily hold off against 3 players for a minute or more. That's their current niche. Guardians can also specialize in damage, or support. They're not limited. But that role of area and point capture denial they do better than anyone else, and that role is incredibly important.

    And it's not even that, guardians are great for countering a 4-1 opener as well, since they can block off the choke point for 5+ seconds and give their team time to kill the boss. The other team arrives at a minimum of 3-5 seconds AFTER the boss is dead. There's no chance of a snipe. An engineer might be able to do this as well, or maybe a tripwire or trap thief/ranger, but again... Guardians do it so much better, and guardians are much more useful than engineers, thieves, or rangers just in general, since they're not as limited in their role. A thief is just bad in general for sPvP, rangers are okay but don't really fulfill much of an important niche role, and an engineer is severely limited and squishy.
    Last edited by Larynx; 2012-07-25 at 02:41 AM.
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  8. #1048
    The Insane DrakeWurrum's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Larynx View Post
    Guardian's have incredible area denial. That's the clear advantage they provide. No other class provides that kind of control over a capture point.
    Pretty sure Engineers and Necros and Elementalists do pretty decent area denial as well. O_o
    Example: I ain't going anywhere near that Thumper Turret or that massive comet of ice about to drop down.

    Regardless of the benefits of a Guardian, people are dumb. There is no "clear advantage" to a Guardian, they're just easier to figure out that other classes. They're not very complex. People just realized that Guardians are good at support before they realized the support capabilities of other specs. Primarily that Guardians supportive role is about keeping nearby allies alive.

    They seem to forget that Elementalists and Engineers are also good at keeping their allies alive, among others.
    I hope you haven't forgotten my role in this little story. I'm the leading man. You know what they say about the leading man? He never dies.

    If you give in to your impulses in this world, the price is that it changes your personality in the real world. The player and character are one and the same.

  9. #1049
    Quote Originally Posted by DrakeWurrum View Post
    Pretty sure Engineers and Necros and Elementalists do pretty decent area denial as well. O_o
    Example: I ain't going anywhere near that Thumper Turret or that massive comet of ice about to drop down.

    Regardless of the benefits of a Guardian, people are dumb. There is no "clear advantage" to a Guardian, they're just easier to figure out that other classes. They're not very complex. People just realized that Guardians are good at support before they realized the support capabilities of other specs. Primarily that Guardians supportive role is about keeping nearby allies alive.

    They seem to forget that Elementalists and Engineers are also good at keeping their allies alive, among others.
    Necros are not good at point defense. Death Shroud is good survivability, yes and Lich form is great for area denial, but I'd hardly consider it viable to build your entire character off of one elite skill. Elementalists? Same. Engineers? No. Thumper turret is not area denial. Nor are engineers durable enough in the current meta. The only build they can effectively use is condition damage stacking and bombs. They are incredibly squishy, with only about 15k health.

    The last point is moot since this is about area denial and point defense.

    Guardians are both durable, and have area denial. They have incredible bursts of support and sustainability through their tome. No other profession provides this. Warriors have great control, but it's different. Their's are not as limited by large cooldowns, and the majority are mostly short term, or single target. Elementalists provide great damage and support, but aren't durable enough to defend a point. Necros are too limited in their's. They have Lich Form, a long CD, and Death Shroud, which is limited defense versus two or three other players. They most likely can perform the role in substitution of a guardian, but a guardian is still better at it since he has much better attrition.
    Last edited by Larynx; 2012-07-25 at 02:58 AM.
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  10. #1050
    The Insane DrakeWurrum's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Larynx View Post
    Necros are not good at point defense. Lich form is great for area denial, but I'd hardly consider it viable to build your entire character off of one elite skill. Elementalists? Same. Engineers? No. Thumper turret is not area denial. Nor are engineers durable enough in the current meta. The only build they can effectively use is condition damage stacking and bombs. They are incredibly squishy, with only about 15k health.

    The last point is moot since this is about area denial and point defense.
    I remember in BWE1 and 2 some people on this forum posting about defending capture points as Engineers, 1v3. O_o

    And I remember hearing that Necromancers were equally a pain to kill.

    Obviously assuming the right builds.
    I hope you haven't forgotten my role in this little story. I'm the leading man. You know what they say about the leading man? He never dies.

    If you give in to your impulses in this world, the price is that it changes your personality in the real world. The player and character are one and the same.

  11. #1051
    Quote Originally Posted by DrakeWurrum View Post
    I remember in BWE1 and 2 some people on this forum posting about defending capture points as Engineers, 1v3. O_o

    And I remember hearing that Necromancers were equally a pain to kill.

    Obviously assuming the right builds.
    Engineers can not defend a point 1v3 to any meaningful degree. Necromancers are a pain to kill, but they lack control, and their durability is very limited to only two abilities. Death Shroud isn't that useful versus more than a few people, and Lich Form has a long cooldown/short duration. Lich Form has great point area denial just due to the pressure it can put out, and the ability to basically just turret in place. In fact, tome guardian combined with lich form is probably the strongest synergy of professions I've seen so far.

    ---------- Post added 2012-07-24 at 11:06 PM ----------

    For the record, when I say tome I'm referring to Tomb of Courage.
    WoD updated Disc Priest Guide http://i.imgur.com/eOlZz9N.png

  12. #1052
    Tome is a book. Tomb is where you put dead people.

    Larynx, you're stuck in the current sPvP metagame and DrakeWurrum is right this time. First, more than guardians can fill that role. To hold a point, all you need to do is be able to sit on it (where there is often little line of sight) and survive or be able to stay in it longer than an opponent trying to neutralize. Engineers when played well have great area defense and it's not with turrets. Engineers have a wide variety of pulls, pushes, knockdowns, immobilizes, etc. They rely more on moving people around than standing still. Necromancer when built for it can sit on a point for a long time and stay alive. They don't have a lot of movement effects - they can just survive out in the open for a while, which is all you need. I'm sure other classes have builds capable of this as well, but they may not have been figured out yet. Guardian just has a more obvious build for this purpose.

    Second, this is based solely on the current metagame, which is already obsolete. The mini-bosses on Forest only grant 25 points per kill now (was 40 in BWE2) and are harder to kill (though still soloable), so sniping them isn't as powerful of a strategy. But more importantly, the static point defender strategy will likely be replaced by mobile play with no static defense. When you sit one person on a capture point, that means the game becomes a 4v5 in your opponents favor. That provides them more freedom to take secondary objectives or overwhelm your teams other node. On Khylo, you can force a static defender and his backup out of a capture point with a trebuchet and one attacker to cap for his or her own team.

    Third, the BWEs are very short. They're not long enough to develop counter tactics, which usually take a few weeks to be developed and refined. Assuming guardian node holding is popular at release, players will find counter builds to that. For example, guardians tend to have weakness to control effects. If you make a build to push the guardian off the node and can keep them out for a few seconds, you can neutralize. Node defender guardian builds generally don't have that much offense, so they wouldn't be able to recover that node on their own and would need a reinforcement. And that means their team just becomes outnumbered at other locations.

    It should also be noted that Tome of Courage was nerfed quite a bit from its state in BWE3. You no longer gain a ton of extra hitpoints, so using it near death doesn't save you and you can still be killed while using it whereas previously it was near impossible.

  13. #1053
    Quote Originally Posted by Exedore View Post
    People are dumb, what can you do? I remember when WoW classic came out and everyone on Alliance side was making paladins to tank because they thought warriors were awful tanks. Turns out that warriors were the only end-game tanks (at that time) and paladins were pretty bad at it in comparison.

    What "clear advantage" do guardians provide compared to another profession choice? The only reason everyone wants a guardian is because in the current state of the sPvP tournament metagame, they have one role that's been "figured out". Once the game is out and a couple weeks pass, players will find alternative strategies, the metagame will shift, and everyone will look for the new hot profession.
    Ppl are dumb is not a good argument here, nor are the comparison about paladins. Even tho the feel is the same, they are not for the same reasons. and Larynx provide a good explanation to what it happens. But it is very visible on yours and maybe Drakes post that you guys REALLY like guardians as it is now.

    @ Drake

    Necros can survive well with Death Shroud no doubt, but they cant really do anything else while at it. Most still use as an escape rout rather than anything else, or a finish off as well, but in no way they can deny very well. They are a pain to kill, but so is the guardian only that the necro is only a pain IF he gets to use the Death Shroud in time, and after or before that hes butter, while guardians are hard to kill all around even if damage build focus.

    As far as engineer goes so far it was the least (for me) shiney class on the pvp, not sure why yet. They come, they have their things but I it have def not done something of greatness that caught my eyes, since they would easily die against me usually.

    Again people are dumb is a very bad excuse. There IS clear advantage because if you play the actual games where guardians are present it's a clear advantage to the team with or with more. I wont deny it might even be easier to support with it because of it's theme of it, but a Ranger spirit support or any other kind for that matter can compete with it. Even more because most of the guardians skills have a dual effect on skill, making an attack + support, or heal or control and so on. While others really will lack the power of attack with their weapons if they focus on a support build AND THEY MIGHT HOPE to be good as a guardian on support only. Every class has its own limitation of power, while guardians seem to exceed in support with little effort while performing alot of other good "roles" on it.

    @Exedore again

    All you have to do is sit tight? Try doing that if you are a ranger or elementalist (which I played most). I had to move so damn much around a guardian not to just die and really work hard for several minutes of epic fighting to kill him that he just would capture the point. All the guardian did was keep it there, not even need to move, control me pretty much from afar, and still do a VERY considerable amount of damage, I even tried to go melee weapon on him but the outcome was even worse. I cant deny that most of those encounters I killed him, but it took so damn long that it wasnt even worth the fight point wise, or because that was just enough to get +2 of their team to just rape me afterwards, making it further impossible to stay still and "hold" the point for myself. Guardians are not only good at the defensive part but very valuable in the offense-defensive way the called "area denial".

    Some support builds can fill the guardian spot but NEVER as good as a guardian. It's too good to pass, way more reliable and not only you get some support with healing, boons, you get control and some very okay offense. Regardless of meta or not, it was a fact that in the bwe the other support builds were very outshined by the guardian, because they all lacked the inumerous resources that the guardian can bring on a team. Your "builds" for necro and engineer are very specific, necros that sit still and stay alive yeah on very long cooldown, and they cant really do much else than stay alive, now bring a guardian on his place and you get a full package that I just said above, you can't deny that its a "clear advantage".

    No one said to sit tight on a control point forever, not that the points of bosses at forest are worthless. But its not very balanced if you can keep alot of people away from the goal (no matter how much points they give) so your team can get and zerg, we are talking about a single class, and pretty much the only class able to do so. If the Guardian is smart and moves alot around he can pretty much cap everything lol.

    I can agree to counter builds. But if I see a supportive any-class out there, I wont change my build to counter it, Im pretty sure I can deal with it, and if I lose, well its okay, nice fight. Some builds will always be better against some others, but by bringing this point only, you are kinda acknowledging that we kinda need to have one particular build set for anti-guardians at all times (when pretty much should be builds against builds, not builds against class), given they high desired presence and their very much versatile and strong usefulness.

    Anyways. its late XD Ill sleep XD

    ---

  14. #1054
    Quote Originally Posted by Zilong View Post
    Ppl are dumb is not a good argument here, nor are the comparison about paladins. Even tho the feel is the same, they are not for the same reasons. and Larynx provide a good explanation to what it happens. But it is very visible on yours and maybe Drakes post that you guys REALLY like guardians as it is now.
    People are dumb is a perfectly good argument. Just like you're doing now, they can't see what's over the horizon, nor care to admit that that there's something there. There was no comparison to WoW paladins. It was an example of how wrong players were at the release of a game and how it didn't become apparent to most until a month later.

    Necros can survive well with Death Shroud no doubt, but they cant really do anything else while at it. Most still use as an escape rout rather than anything else, or a finish off as well, but in no way they can deny very well.
    This is because few people have learned how to play well. I saw watched a video of a necro with a Death Shroud build in BWE2 that was able to stay alive for over a minute against 2 people and kill them on his own.

    All you have to do is sit tight? Try doing that if you are a ranger or elementalist (which I played most). I had to move so damn much around a guardian not to just die and really work hard for several minutes of epic fighting to kill him that he just would capture the point. All the guardian did was keep it there, not even need to move, control me pretty much from afar, and still do a VERY considerable amount of damage, I even tried to go melee weapon on him but the outcome was even worse. I cant deny that most of those encounters I killed him, but it took so damn long that it wasnt even worth the fight point wise, or because that was just enough to get +2 of their team to just rape me afterwards, making it further impossible to stay still and "hold" the point for myself. Guardians are not only good at the defensive part but very valuable in the offense-defensive way the called "area denial".
    You're proving my points. Like I said, a guardian build came around that was "figured out". And it's obvious that few people have found counter build or counter strategies. I'm certain that they're there, but it takes time. You claim you won't use a counter-build. Yet if most teams do use guardians in the node control capacity, I'm sure the counter for it, one it is figured out, will also become commonplace. And then guardians as node control will be phased out. From everything I've seen, though I haven't gone through a lot of post-BWE3 wrap-up, there were really only two builds that were "figured out", which was guardian node control and the warrior greatsword/axe build. The greatsword/axe build has already started to decline because players are learning how to counter it.

  15. #1055
    Herald of the Titans Ynna's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Zilong View Post
    People are dumb is not a good argument here,
    I feel it is, to a certain extent. In the few days of play we've had people can't have found out about all the strengths of each profession, leaving the profession who have more obvious strengths more valuable. I'd also attribute this to a certain extent to the idea that people have in their head: Guardian is a support thing--> we need support-->we need a Guardian.

    I haven't played 5v5 games, but in 10v10's I was never ridiculously powerful, and there are certainly counter-strategies to a static Guardian.

    Also, you mentioned a Elementalist not being able to do what a Guardian can, but a Guardian also can't do certain things an Elementalist can.

    I will admit that Guardian can fill a niche that is really powerful in Structured PvP, but if they would tone this down (and it might be necessary), a Guardian would lose most of his strengths. (And I'm still not completely convinced that it's not a niche that other professions can fill equally well. If it turns out they can't, it would need changing, but so far, I'm not sure.)
    Retired Holy Priest
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  16. #1056
    I didn't participate in the last BWE. (Character wipe :'<)

    So how's Guardian with 2h swords right now? And Sword/shield?

  17. #1057
    I'm not as experienced a guardian as most people in this thread probably but when I finally tried out the profession this BWE i used Greatsword plus Sword/Shield or sword/focus (seemed like a good place to start).

    Now my thoughts on the 1H sword were that it was pretty amazing. Good damage as well as being able to stick to people. Seemed like a very offensive weapon. The offhands (shield/focus) I don't think I figured them out properly enough to effectively give my view on them so i'll just say nothing for now. Now the Greatsword i'm kind of unsure about, the weapon really locks you in place a lot (the 2, 3, and 5 skill) which was a fairly large turnoff for me but if you had a way to keep people close to you the weapon was very effective.
    "Haters give me balance, every Kyle's got a Cartman." -George Watsky

  18. #1058
    Exedore, there's no reason to argue hypotheticals. In the current meta, guardians do it best. As the current meta is already obsolete and balance changes will be made, nothing said here matters anymore.

    Necromancers can defend a point, they can substitute a guardian. They lack the great area control a guardian has, the healing and support, and their role is more limited by their build. This is why a guardian is better at that job. They are also not as reliant on limited cooldowns like the necromancer, and I'm not sure if life force declines after combat, if so then there's another huge reason.

    That's how it worked in BWE3. For all we know, thieves might be great at point defense. But currently, they are not. So you can not argue that they might be without an actual example build.
    Last edited by Larynx; 2012-07-25 at 06:20 PM.
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  19. #1059
    Quote Originally Posted by Exedore View Post
    People are dumb is a perfectly good argument. Just like you're doing now, they can't see what's over the horizon, nor care to admit that that there's something there. There was no comparison to WoW paladins. It was an example of how wrong players were at the release of a game and how it didn't become apparent to most until a month later.
    People being dumb is an argument and a fact. But I also think that our every-day WoW-mind specially with a pre-purchase beta on gw2 is less common. I've seen plenty of players testing out ranger spirit supports, engineer support, elementalist support or even defensive builds. But in a team composition would be often a support "any class here" AND a guardian. I'm curious to see 1 month after launch, but I still believe it's not about peoples mind, because the difference is obvious when a guardian is not present on a game! Rather than "There are alot of people playing guardians, so you feel like they must be that class to support".
    This is because few people have learned how to play well. I saw watched a video of a necro with a Death Shroud build in BWE2 that was able to stay alive for over a minute against 2 people and kill them on his own.
    Correct, but a Death Shroud build is very focused and limited. While having a guardian on your team regardless of build will grant you that same "feature". [b]I think what Larynx said about "Guardians are both durable, and have area denial. They have incredible bursts of support and sustainability through their tome. No other profession provides this." is very true and not only because of the tome. While other class builds require very fine tuning and quite a large focus into one particular point (not even saying role), guardians really take the cake not only with area denial, extreme survival, bursts of support, control and even damage, of course youll say they have builds for that too, but they don't really lose the power of doing the other stuff just as well.

    You're proving my points. Like I said, a guardian build came around that was "figured out". And it's obvious that few people have found counter build or counter strategies. I'm certain that they're there, but it takes time. You claim you won't use a counter-build. Yet if most teams do use guardians in the node control capacity, I'm sure the counter for it, one it is figured out, will also become commonplace. And then guardians as node control will be phased out. From everything I've seen, though I haven't gone through a lot of post-BWE3 wrap-up, there were really only two builds that were "figured out", which was guardian node control and the warrior greatsword/axe build. The greatsword/axe build has already started to decline because players are learning how to counter it.
    Guess we are proving each other points lol . I'm not claiming I wont use them, I just stated that counter builds are there to counter builds, not entire classes, which pretty much falls to my last point above. This isn't JUST about node control capacity too, even tho it's a great deal of unbalancing. Ive started this discussion on bwe2 and bwe3 on guardian sub-forum and the majority of the people seem to agree, the ones that don't usually make arguments about how fun the class is as it is, and some even buy disagreeing, agree that something needed some change. Having a counter warrior burst is all good, but having a counter-guardian for your daily sPvP sounds ridiculous.

    ---


    Quote Originally Posted by Ynna View Post
    I feel it is, to a certain extent. In the few days of play we've had people can't have found out about all the strengths of each profession, leaving the profession who have more obvious strengths more valuable. I'd also attribute this to a certain extent to the idea that people have in their head: Guardian is a support thing--> we need support-->we need a Guardian.

    I haven't played 5v5 games, but in 10v10's I was never ridiculously powerful, and there are certainly counter-strategies to a static Guardian.

    Also, you mentioned a Elementalist not being able to do what a Guardian can, but a Guardian also can't do certain things an Elementalist can.

    I will admit that Guardian can fill a niche that is really powerful in Structured PvP, but if they would tone this down (and it might be necessary), a Guardian would lose most of his strengths. (And I'm still not completely convinced that it's not a niche that other professions can fill equally well. If it turns out they can't, it would need changing, but so far, I'm not sure.)
    As I said, it is a arguments just not a good one, specially talking about gw2. I feel like the majority of the people I played with (PvE and PvP wise) were very open minded and wanted to have fun, and to an extent the apparition of the guardian in a sPvP was usually "stressing". I don't think that they didn't find all the strengths in each professions either, but they got a pretty good idea, my point is that guardian have valuable strengths without having to actually chose then apart (even build wise). The people I've played tournys with (and I love that because you can talk cross-team and even after match since no split sides like horde or different realms) is that they are actually having a guardians because it provides the best benefit period. Not about thinking about support, but by experienced gameplay of how they do in a game. You posted on the thread I opened in the sub-forums and if you read there again later on you would see people agreeing to the "The best matches and funner ones were the ones without guardians", and the guardian players were also saying that some stuff indeed needed to be changed.

    Again, I'm not saying guardians are gods of ridiculously power. I'm saying they are invaluable assets to a team in sPvP due to their capacity to be the jack of all trades. They focus a build in something, which will become quite powerful and yet they provide very good everything else they didn't pick up as a focus on the build. Stuff that you can rarely see on other professions as stated here "Necro Death Shroud Build", Denial Area "Engineer" (which wasnt that much either), and so on.

    Again its not about what the class cant or can do in comparison to other builds, its about what they can do as a whole. For an elementalist to be very supportive, they need to go Water mainly, which is fine, but you probably wont be doing that 100% of the time. They are squishy unless going Earth too, but then they cant damage or control too much, and mainly some good heals. While a guardian for me regardless of build can boon, support, heal while even having a more dmg focused build.

    Your last phrase exactly puts my point up. And that's why I didn't like the guardian when it first got announced. I do enjoy playing with him now, but you are basically saying that they are either "too good" and if taken away they will lose a lot. I still think if they could make the guardians focus more in a "role" while having to let go some other aspects will be enough. Thus making a balance within the class. You might not be completely convinced but if you played some good PvP you can pretty much see that the usefulness of the guardians support while can be matched by others (and not even by much extent), the guardian still seems to be in the upper hand with "what's left" that he didn't chose to focus on.

  20. #1060
    It's set to stone that I will go Guardian for release at least.

    Anyways, does anyone else feels that some wards, symbols, bubbles and whatnot does not work from time to time? I used the staff at one point in SPvP, and somehow they crossed the line several times. People can also hit through sanctuary if they stand close enough, and AoE goes through it as well.

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