Have you ever seen a GHOST????

[Catta]

Until we know what is being passed in those messages, we have no idea whether or not we can measure dolphin communication.

There are no "ifs", "buts" or "maybes". We can NOT measure their communication, all we can say is that the noise is there. Until we quantify it (which we can't), we're going off guesswork. If that's what passes for science these days, I worry for the future.



What I find amusing is your dismissal of an entire post of considerations being boiled back down to your singular point that's already been disproven; probably because accepting that you are endorsing double-standards is devastating to the card tower masquerading as your argument. What's even more amusing is the horrendous grasp of logic you must possess to have arrived at the conclusion that I'm somehow arguing our instruments are actually picking up ghosts.

Here is why you believe what you do, and why you think it's correct:

Science explains everything that exists.
Science doesn't explain ghosts.
Therefore, ghosts don't exist.

At first pass, that looks great - perfectly logical. Except for the fact that both premises have to be accurate before the conclusion can be considered necessarily correct and, in this case, they're not. Science does not explain everything that exists, meaning the conclusion is false straight off the bat.

Now you can snide and sneer, or "find amusement" in whatever you like - I honestly don't mind. But what you clearly can't do is shift out of your little box of duality and accept things that are logically self-evident. For you, every single post you've made, boils down to this:

Either you can scientifically prove something, or it doesn't exist.

Any erudite person knows that there is very little difference in your position to that of a Christian fundamentalist. You "believe" something to be true (despite overwhelming volumes of evidence to the contrary) so anything that doesn't conform can't be right.

At a guess, you're not far out of college. Once you've gotten involved in paranormal research of any kind, you'll find that your basis of "real" and "impossible" changes quite remarkably.

Except im just pointing out that you are the one who says: Oh we dont know these things we cant measure it hurr durr and then go on to say - and then there was this seance and we measured stuff!
I find it amazing that you accuse me of holding a double standard when you do this yourself. I say because we cannot measure anything related to ghosts then there is no evidence of their existance. You say oh, but theres a lot of things we cant measure and go on about your dolphins. And then you say you measured something which cant be ghosts since you just said they arent measurable and if they are then why dont they hold up to scrutiny

---------- Post added 2012-02-29 at 07:16 PM ----------

what the hell are you talking about. what phenomena was so out of the ordinary that very realistic explanations couldn't even be warranted? you seem to not grasp how frequent our brain makes up patterns into shapes or how easily sun spots hit shitty camera lenses and just how extremely implausible the conception of a ghost actually is to be able to say that "well that weird little spot on the video must have been a ghost"

i mean shit dude, I really could make a simple movie like that in photoshop. It's not difficult. there's a reason why every bit of 'evidence' has been nothing more than 'footage' from shitty cameras. because shitty cameras are faulty, because rigging a film is easy, and because there IS NO SUCH THING AS GHOSTS.

theres a movie cutting technique called "ghosting" - guess what it looks like

[Wildtree]

As for myself, I cannot make an absolute statement, either way. Why?
To do so, I would have to be able to rely on any related constant that cannot be altered. But such does not exist.
So I cannot say Ghosts do not exist. Simply for the reason that I would lack proof. To base such statement on physics is short sighted. Simply for the fact that both, the laws of physics and physical law have changed or altered equally to mankind's progress.

For the same reasons I cannot say Ghosts do exist. I'd lack the same points.

In overall, no absolute statement can be made, as of now. Both sides can only say "I believe"...

For what we do know, and evidence for it exists plentyful, there are unsolved mysteries, and unexplained phenomena.
Our intellectual evolution should have taught everyone to NOT deny, even less refuse anything, Rather strive to solve the unknown.

[Catta]

seriously dude, i dont know what point that mindless dribble was supposed to make but pick up a fucking physics book. explain how something can consist of no detectable matter but can still be seen and heard and somehow move intangibly through objects and defy the laws of gravity whilst still complying with them.

Ive been making this argument all thread - It is rarely answered but when it is its answered with: d'oh theres just things we cant understand

---------- Post added 2012-02-29 at 07:21 PM ----------

As for myself, I cannot make an absolute statement, either way. Why?
To do so, I would have to be able to rely on any related constant that cannot be altered. But such does not exist.
So I cannot say Ghosts do not exist. Simply for the reason that I would lack proof. To base such statement on physics is short sighted. Simply for the fact that both, the laws of physics and physical law have changed or altered equally to mankind's progress.

For the same reasons I cannot say Ghosts do exist. I'd lack the same points.

In overall, no absolute statement can be made, as of now. Both sides can only say "I believe"...

For what we do know, and evidence for it exists plentyful, there are unsolved mysteries, and unexplained phenomena.
Our intellectual evolution should have taught everyone to NOT deny, even less refuse anything, Rather strive to solve the unknown.

The evidence for leprechauns is immense - do you know how many socks dissappear on the world scale... This means that the chance of leprechauns exists is the same as them not existing - therefore you cannot deny their existence

[Providence]

theres a movie cutting technique called "ghosting" - guess what it looks like

lol i'm really gonna have to look that one up

edit:

The evidence for leprechauns is immense - do you know how many socks dissappear on the world scale... This means that the chance of leprechauns exists is the same as them not existing - therefore you cannot deny their existence

new sig lol

[Wildtree]

theres a movie cutting technique called "ghosting" - guess what it looks like

But that is not so much a cutting technique. The ghosting term comes from the times when there wasn't anything else than antennas on the roofs to receive tv signals. If your antenna wasn't correctly aligned the picture was flawed by "ghosting" which simply creates a shadow next to the objects silhouette.

---------- Post added 2012-02-29 at 12:25 PM ----------

do you know how many socks dissappear on the world scale...

That made me laugh very hard lolol

Those damn socks.. There MUST be a socks universe. I guess everyone believes that. hehe

[Catta]

But that is not so much a cutting technique. The ghosting term comes from the times when there wasn't anything else than antennas on the roofs to receive tv signals. If your antenna wasn't correctly aligned the picture was flawed by "ghosting" which simply creates a shadow next to the objects silhouette.

---------- Post added 2012-02-29 at 12:25 PM ----------

That made me laugh very hard lolol

Those damn socks.. There MUST be a socks universe. I guess everyone believes that. hehe

The one i refer to is when you are making a movie clip and put the same background on top of the other but turn up the transparancy so you can make it look like a shadow following someone while its just a normal person - I used this technique when i was making a movie where we were trying to show a person being a paranoid schizophrenic

[Tydrane]

Uncle rises up from the bed and got into fighting position while my aunt screamed.

I sometimes really enjoy when people aren't the best English speakers. This is one of those times.

ENGAGE GHOST FIGHTING POSITION

[Rickarus]

Seriously, some of the people in this thread are coming dangerously close to religious zealotry with their stubbornness with regard to their insistence that ghosts don't exist because "they can't exist, it goes against the laws of physics." There is an abundance of things that sit outside of the accepted scientific theories. There is far too much about our universe that we do not understand, and simply dismissing things and saying "they don't exist because they don't exist" goes completely against the Scientific process.

I agree that it falls on the believers to prove existence, but I feel that many of the people in this thread, if given undeniable proof, would still say "nope, they don't exist because they don't fit my view of the world."

[inux94]

Ghosts exist, anyone saying they don't are just making their opinion, but they do exist.

[Suicidal Panda]

Nuclear Launch detected.

[Doktor Faustus]

My body has once reacted to seeing supernatural phonomena:

Shared a house with my friend after Uni, we used to smoke a far amount of weed and drink heavily (over friends were always over helping us along).

It was that post-Uni early-20's phase where your body still allowed you to party hard, sleep little and somehow tie down a job.

One evening, I was on the sofa next to the door leading upstairs.

Out of the corner of my eye, I saw the door slowly close itself.

My spine tingled, adrenaline flowed like Guinness on Paddy's Day and every single hair on my body stood on end.

My jaw dropped, and for 5 minutes I was dissecting the actual existence of supernatural forces that I had just witnessed.

I could not speak, I was in shock - and then I noticed that my firend who was sitting on the floor near the door, had innocentleyclosed the door with his leg, something I could not see my my seated position.

Closest I've ever come, and I have been to many ancient ruins, castles, spooky old woods etc etc.

[Deleted]

Ghosts exist, anyone saying they don't are just making their opinion, but they do exist.

They only exists as things that your brain has generated in a way that we do not understand.


Or are you going to tell me that any hallucinations you see when you take certain forms of drugs are actually real?

No. But it's the same thing as 'ghosts'.

[Pua]

Providence and Cattaclysmic:

I hope you realise that I can debate this all year because I've had these discussions multiple times; discussions that trot out the same dualistic arguments you're representing.

But no matter. Your persistent attempts throughout this thread to fervently squash any commentary that doesn't conform to your own version of reality is quite telling. Perhaps it highlights a psychological anxiety at the very notion that what you so rabidly believe might not be right. But that's a chat for another time.

what the hell are you talking about. what phenomena was so out of the ordinary that very realistic explanations couldn't even be warranted?

There is a difference between what is possible, and what is probable. A significant one. There are examples, literally beyond count, of potentially paranormal occurrences that science couldn't explain, and still can't. My point here is very simple; you demand that evidence OF the paranormal must be beyond doubt, but are happy accepting that evidence AGAINST the paranormal needs to only be possible in order to be true.

You're effectively saying that any possible mundane explanation for an occurrence, regardless of how extraordinarily unlikely, is good enough - on the same token, any possible paranormal explanation for that same occurrence is not good enough.

That's crap analytical procedure and, frankly, I wouldn't lower myself to it because I take my clients more seriously than to subject them to such shoddy double-standards.

And just as an aside, do you know what "paranormal" means?

I do.

It's the occurrence of an event or perception without scientific explanation. By default, that means you have to accept that any occurrence without a suitable scientific explanation is, by definition, paranormal.

Unless you wish to argue against the foundations of language, of course?

you seem to not grasp how frequent our brain makes up patterns into shapes or how easily sun spots hit shitty camera lenses and just how extremely implausible the conception of a ghost actually is to be able to say that "well that weird little spot on the video must have been a ghost"

I grasp it very well actually, a fact alluded to in my response to Brett Skullcrack. The fact that you're now also showing me the discourtesy of making straw man arguments, in the hope nobody will notice, shows just how out of touch you've become with this debate.

i mean shit dude, I really could make a simple movie like that in photoshop. It's not difficult. there's a reason why every bit of 'evidence' has been nothing more than 'footage' from shitty cameras. because shitty cameras are faulty, because rigging a film is easy, and because there IS NO SUCH THING AS GHOSTS.

Clearly you are not even remotely aware of the ever-growing catalogue of paranormal occurrences caught on modern media.

I don't know what a russian person is saying but I am certain they are speaking. your move sherlock.

But we can translate those messages into a language we do understand, subject them to the rules of predictability and repetition, and they conform to those rules. We cannot do that for dolphins or whales.

Elementary, my dear Watson.

you are wrong. we build machines that can perceive X RAYS GAMMA RAYS, INFRARED, ULTRA VIOLET, RADIO WAVES, NUTRINOS, ELECTRONS, PROTONS, NEUTRONS, GLUONS and just about every other thing imaginable. none of these things are even detectable by humans. its tragic that you're an engineer and you don't know that.

I'm not an engineer. A member of my team is. And we built machines that were looking for the smallest measurements of matter, and subsequently came across them. That's not my point. My point, as yet untouched by either you or Cattaclysmic, is that we don't know what else is there because it hasn't occurred to us that we should look.

If you used a microscope, would you come across electromagnetic waves?

where's the contradiction magilla gorilla. i'm dying to know. actually take the time to read and process the words too.

Here's what you said:

"hallucinations happen a fucking lot. you just dont notice them or you have a misguided view of what a hallucination is. it's simply seeing something that isn't there. seeing a pattern and making it a face is a hallucination. and that happens a lot".

I'll break it down for you.

1) A hallucination is simply seeing something that isn't there.
2) Seeing a pattern (WHICH IS THERE) and making it a face is a hallucination.

Bolded, caps locked and underlined. Again, I already mentioned the psychological process where the brain tries to resolve something it doesn't recognise into something it does.

seriously dude, i dont know what point that mindless dribble was supposed to make but pick up a fucking physics book. explain how something can consist of no detectable matter but can still be seen and heard and somehow move intangibly through objects and defy the laws of gravity whilst still complying with them.

More straw man arguments? Really? What are you going to stoop to in your next post?

your argument that ghosts have potential works well enough. they dont. come up with compelling evidence and i'll retract my statement.

The fact you see no distinction between an argument that paranormal phenomena might be supernatural, and an argument that stipulates the existence of "ghosts", dictates that you are not intellectually qualified to continue this discussion. Remember that even the late Carl Gustav Jung wouldn't "commit the fashionable stupidity of regarding everything [he could not explain] as a fraud".

Thanks for dropping by.

---------- Post added 2012-02-29 at 07:56 PM ----------

Seriously, some of the people in this thread are coming dangerously close to religious zealotry with their stubbornness with regard to their insistence that ghosts don't exist because "they can't exist, it goes against the laws of physics." There is an abundance of things that sit outside of the accepted scientific theories. There is far too much about our universe that we do not understand, and simply dismissing things and saying "they don't exist because they don't exist" goes completely against the Scientific process.

I agree that it falls on the believers to prove existence, but I feel that many of the people in this thread, if given undeniable proof, would still say "nope, they don't exist because they don't fit my view of the world."

I only have one thing to say to you, sir.

[Adam Jensen]

There is an abundance of things that sit outside of the accepted scientific theories.

No, there is nothing that sits outside scientific theories except for things we don't yet understand. Simply labeling such unexplained things as supernatural is lazy.

There is far too much about our universe that we do not understand, and simply dismissing things and saying "they don't exist because they don't exist" goes completely against the Scientific process.

Actually, that is kind of how scientific progress works, so you're completely wrong on this. In science, nothing is accepted without evidence. If there's no evidence for ghosts, then there's no reason to believe they exist.

I agree that it falls on the believers to prove existence, but I feel that many of the people in this thread, if given undeniable proof, would still say "nope, they don't exist because they don't fit my view of the world."

I will accept undeniable proof once said proof is presented. Problem is, all the current "evidence" is unsubstantial, unconfirmed, or too vague. The human mind is very easily deceived and "ghosts" can arise from hallucinations, light tricks and other phenomenon.

[Catta]

I'm not an engineer. A member of my team is. And we built machines that were looking for the smallest measurements of matter, and subsequently came across them. That's not my point. My point, as yet untouched by either you or Cattaclysmic, is that we don't know what else is there because it hasn't occurred to us that we should look.

If you used a microscope, would you come across electromagnetic waves?

The whole point of ghost sightings is that they are something humans can percieve - So your argument about it being unknowable is moot - There is nothing a human can percieve that some machine cannot measure

[Catta]

A machine cannot perceive beauty. A painting can look awesome to a large number of people but a machine can only perceive colors and chemical composites on a square piece of cloth.

Beauty is in the eye of the beholder - besides its a manmade construct - are you suggesting that ghosts are...?

[Vizardlorde]

though a lot of strange stuff happens around me no, I have not seen a ghost, If i spend enough time most of the stuff can be explained but its an awful amount of coincidences, the closest ive come to seeing a ghost while not hallucinating/dreaming is seeing a red light coming from my bathroom at 3 am while everyone was sleeping i didnt even dare check what it was but at 7 am when i went to the bathroom there was nothing capable of producing a red light

as for those coincidences lets just say that my mother and my sisters and I are sleep walkers, the electrical devices in my house are affected by phenomena unknown to me, and sometimes there are abnormal sounds coming from outside the building. Ive gotten used to the conditions it only becomes creepy when im home alone and my moms alarm/radio start playing music on its own when its not programmed to do so and the tvs turn off

[Uncle Julian]

Thankyou Aethon for your Avatar...loved that show <3

[Valort]

Seen them? Thats so 1900. I've had SEX WITH GHOSTS.
Also went out with one for a couple of years.
How do I know? Freaking ectoplasm.

[Catta]

No, I just gave you an example of something that can't be perceived by machines: psychological sensations.

And that would make perfect sense if the only thing a ghost was is a psychological sensation