Do you miss "proper" raid progression ?

[Deleted]

I thought id post this here rather then on the TOR where it would only boil down to the usual flamewar so here goes.

Am I the only one that misses some proper raid progression in terms of instances like in Vanilla/BC WoW ?

Personally, I liked the fact you had to work your way through MC/ZG/Onyxia before going into BWL made any sense for example.
In TOR however you get all the content pretty much from the day you turn 50 and the only thing that changes is Mob HP and how hard they hit.

Not to mention the more or less trivial encounters:
EV:
Anihilator Droid > Trivial
Gharj > even more Trivial then Anihilator Droid
Pillars > *facepalm*
Council > more then just trivial
SoA > the fact we killed him with a PuG in late december on the 3rd try without anyone having done it before really says it all.

Karaggas:
Bonecrusher > trivial
Foreman Crusher > trivial
The Bountyhunters > trivial up to some point but does require better coordination then most other fights
Heavy Fabricator Droid > the only one that imo isnt too trivial cause it requires a good deal of coordination
Karagga > seriously...this is supposed to be a final boss of an Operation ?

I mean right now there is no fight in TOR that even compares to say Nefarian in Vanilla for example(not to mention AQ40 bosses but I never really did those so cant say for sure).

[Deleted]

I'm disappointed by the fact that I've done hardmode of both the Ops and still haven't done all the Flashpoints. Epics are too easy to get, you go right to Ops at 50 (buy a couple of items from GTN) and you could avoid doing hardmode flashpoints altogether. Making the Ops easier than the FPs was a major mistake. They did the same in WoW, where you can skip the starter content and go straight to raiding in all the expansions, where in Vanilla, you had to farm blue set before you could go to MC.

It seems now that all games are pandering to the masses who want "Epic" gear. If you aren't rewarded with purples straight away, it seems people won't be bothered. Even in Age Of Empires Online, you can get "Legendary" drops from the easier end game missions, and even buy some "Legendary" items for gold from vendor.

The inflation for items in all MMO's today is ridiculous, getting your hands on Epic items (crafting barrels as you level) in SWTOR is extremely easy. I suspect the developers are afraid that if they make people work for purples anymore they will lose subscribers.

My Sniper is full Columi and 2 parts Rakata and I've only played about 20-30 hours at 50. All I have to do is turn up online and advertise in general that I'm looking for a normal more Ops pug, and it's easy loot. Now, my character will simply be replacing one epic item for another for the next year (if I play that long) until an expansion where gear might get reset, and then I'll spend another 2 weeks in blues until I get my free set of epics again.

Pure inflation, and it's devalued the term "Epic" forever.

[Deleted]

Personally, I liked the fact you had to work your way through MC/ZG/Onyxia before going into BWL made any sense for example.

You DO know that only Onyxia and MC were there at release right? Blackwing Lair was released over half a year after the games launch, and ZG was ~3 months or so after BWL.

The fact we're getting our next tier of Operations either during next month in March or very early April is decent.

[Deleted]

Normal is meant to be puggable, and designed to give the general casual player a chance at clearing all content and getting loot. Hard/Nightmare (or WoW heroic) are designed for organised raiders. Epics aren't designed to be some amazing status symbol any more and the faster you let go of that the better for your sanity, mmo's have moved on.

[Jlena]

You DO know that only Onyxia and MC were there at release right? Blackwing Lair was released over half a year after the games launch, and ZG was ~3 months or so after BWL.

The fact we're getting our next tier of Operations either during next month in March or very early April is decent.

The 40 man raids where not at release they have been implemented later on first Ony and then MC.

[Deleted]

The 40 man raids where not at release they have been implemented later on first Ony and then MC.

Ah, I started a month or so before the BWL patch so just went by what wowpedia said.

[obdigore]

I find Pillars less trivial than either of the bosses before it, since you actually have to coordinate it on HM.

Soa is the hardest boss in his instance, and the Heavy Fabricator Droid is the hardest in KP. Karugga is a joke.

[Deleted]

Raids, that came with release of WoW were Scholomance, Stratholme, Blackrock Spire, 10 and 15 man raids.

[Pool of the Dead]

The 40 man raids where not at release they have been implemented later on first Ony and then MC.

40 man raids were at release, most just did not see them for months due to the steep leveling time.

Release Patch 1.1 7th november 2004. New Raid Encounters
Rumors of Onyxia, an enormous black dragon, have been heard through out Azeroth. Be sure to bring many brave warriors for she won’t take kindly to intruders in her lair. Both factions will need to complete unique, and challenging quests to gain access to the Onyxia encounter.
Discovered in the heart of Blackrock Mountain beyond the Depths, lies the Molten Core. Within the Molten Core lives a multitude of ancient and powerful evil. Adventurers be ware, for the dangers found within the Molten Core are many and takes many forms.
** Raid loot is being worked on and temporary loot has been placed in raid encounters

Raids, that came with release of WoW were Scholomance, Stratholme, Blackrock Spire, 10 and 15 man raids.

Obviously did not play in Vanilla.

[moff]

I actually like most of the encounters. the droid boss in karaggas palace is even great, one of the best bosses I have fought in my MMO career, I am usually the one solving the puzzle.
the only one I am REALLY disappointed with is karagga himself, that encounter feels extremely rushed, presentation is awful and the mechanics are very boring.

apart from that, I believe its too easy to get good gear, too soon there is no motivation anymore to play the game. the difficulty levels themselves are fine BUT

normal operations should drop ONLY tionese sets.
hard mode operations AND hard mode flashpoints should drop ONLY columi
only nightmare operations should drop rakata.
and VERY important: different lockouts for hard and nightmare.

but I think thats all alright actually, for a newly launched MMO and especillay one where all the haters said the endgame is going to be from non-existend to awful, I think they did really fine, I am not complaining.

[Guldur]

Scholomance and Stratholme never were raids, during some patches, maybe even the whole time it was possible to enter with more than 5 man. I have 5manned all of them countless times. UPPER Blackrock Spire was a Raid.

[Deleted]

Scholomance and Stratholme never were raids, during some patches, maybe even the whole time it was possible to enter with more than 5 man. I have 5manned all of them countless times. UPPER Blackrock Spire was a Raid.

Er this was true at a later date, but initially on release UBRS was 15 man, scholo and strath were 10 man.

http://www.wowpedia.org/Scholomance

At release, Scholomance was an extremely challenging dungeon. Typically, the dungeon was raided in 10-man parties, with a difficulty similar to Upper Blackrock Spire. Subsequent patches in the summer of 2006 changed Scholomance drastically. Mobs were weakened slightly, and a great many were removed. However, Scholomance could no longer be run with more than 5 party members."

From the section labelled "Difficulty".

[Fannyd]

Scholomance and Stratholme never were raids, during some patches, maybe even the whole time it was possible to enter with more than 5 man. I have 5manned all of them countless times. UPPER Blackrock Spire was a Raid.

Please, just get your facts right. It's so frustrating reading the rubbish that people spout on here

[Jlena]

40 man raids were at release, most just did not see them for months due to the steep leveling time.





Obviously did not play in Vanilla.

You are totally wrong there my friend. The first 40 man raid that was implemented was ony around 3 months after release. Look it up if you want. because i know for sure.

[Deleted]

The fact we're getting our next tier of Operations either during next month in March or very early April is decent.

that may well be, but the problem for me is that it feels repetitive to progress to the same boss just with more HP.

now karaggas palace, as mentioned, wasnt really a step-up from EV, in terms of difficulty it was more of the same with the exception of fabricator droid.
gear-wise there also was no difference.

right now, you only really need rakata gear for hardmodes and even that I will argue cause imo at least for DPS you can get away with modded PvP gear.
now if any new content would be a step-up like MC > BWL was it means that it would require rakata to being with and they need to introduce another tier above rakata as loot from that place.
if any such thing is done they also, imo, need to introduce another high tier PvP set cause even right now for some classes the PvE sets are better suited for PvP then the PvP ones. not to mention the fact that, with another tier, crafted gear will become even more useless then it is right now.

personally i have a feeling that Bioware have maneuvered themselves into a corner with the whole Normal > Hard > Nightmare thing.

Now dont get me wrong, the operations themselves are a nice thing but i just feel that they lack the challenge that they SHOULD present.
Dont forget that in Vanilla and BC raids were a serious timesink where you worked your way through one just to progress to the next whereas in TOR its all available from the day you hit 50. thats the real bummer for me.
this might sound like "the grass is always greener on the other side" but for me, in WoW, when our guild started raiding MC you allways had a goal in front of you(which was BWL and if you were in BWL that was AQ and so on). I just completely miss that feeling in TOR...

[Deleted]

The Scholomance an Stratholm quests could only be completed if you went with 5 people. The BRS ones were (raid) and were expected to be completed as such. People ran Strat with more than 5 because they could, though I distinctly remember doing it 5-man for the quests, before the nerfs. Deadmines could be done in a raid, didn't make it one.

[Deleted]

now karaggas palace, as mentioned, wasnt really a step-up from EV, in terms of difficulty it was more of the same with the exception of fabricator droid.
gear-wise there also was no difference.

I don't see the issue here as they're meant to be the same tier of raiding.

[Nyanmaru]

Current SWTOR isn't meant for hardcore gamers, it's made with a casual gaming population in mind. At least the current content is. No matter how "casual" you may feel if you are actively posting on MMO-C you are not. The "really casual gamer" plays about 15-20h a week. And roughly got his first character to level 50 by now, still experimenting with specs and happily finishing his main storry arc while taking a look at repeatable quests. This casual did not read up on sithwarrior.com what's the best level spec and did not check darthhater.com for information or went to youtube to see boss guides and whatnot. He just logs on and enjoys and explores the game. This guy doesn't even strive to be the best at everything. Just casually playing the game like he wants to.
It's harder to see the difference between a casual, a gamer and a hardcore in big MMOs like WoW or SWTOR because the only people that are vocal are gamers and hardcores while the casual isn't interested in all the bantering going on in the forums. But if you ever played something like Lineage 2 you see the difference between hardcore, gamer and casual a lot easier. The hardcore is online 8-10h a day always at the best grinding spot buying some adena on ebay for his gear or doing events with the alliance to gather gear. The gamer tries to do what the hardcore does but only got 4-5h a day to do so. The casual does it alone or with a group of friends, focusing the social aspects over the progression curve. If you look at them after a year, the casual has outdated gear and is level 60, the gamers is level 78 and has up to date gear and the hardcore just started his second sub class and has high enchanted BiS gear for all his specs. (note: sub classes allow you to change the class of your toon to level 40 of another class and switch back and forth at an NPC allowing you to play your main character as an alt, so to say). Now that's an asian grind MMO in comparison to this the trend that WoW started to make it easier to "get new people into endgame" and focus all the attention on endgame makes it impossible for any new game to have the same curve that WoW had over time.

People that come from WoW just want to play another WoW with better graphics and different feel to it. Let's be honest, one doesn't look for new inovations or cool perks, one just wants to continue what one is good at with a fresh feel to it. (same reason why counter strike, battlefield, call of duty and halo are as dominant as they are and make it hard for new titles to be accepted)

[felix8024]

I think as long as this game will evolve, difficulty will increase. At the beginning they wanted to attract as many players as possible.
Meeting the requirements of hardcore players, they would scare casual players because of hard content. You need to understand that not all tor players are so experienced, so skilled and so hardcore players. They just want to jump in, after work, do some hm fp`s and not struggle to much, because there is some nooby player in group. Go to bed with satisfaction and successful run, not frustration that we couldn't make it again and again. Sure as more you run the same fp`s easiest it is. But is it bad? You move forward you do next one waiting your token eventually drop.

[obdigore]

Current SWTOR isn't meant for hardcore gamers, it's made with a casual gaming population in mind. At least the current content is. No matter how "casual" you may feel if you are actively posting on MMO-C you are not. The "really casual gamer" plays about 15-20h a week. And roughly got his first character to level 50 by now, still experimenting with specs and happily finishing his main storry arc while taking a look at repeatable quests. This casual did not read up on sithwarrior.com what's the best level spec and did not check darthhater.com for information or went to youtube to see boss guides and whatnot. He just logs on and enjoys and explores the game. This guy doesn't even strive to be the best at everything. Just casually playing the game like he wants to.
It's harder to see the difference between a casual, a gamer and a hardcore in big MMOs like WoW or SWTOR because the only people that are vocal are gamers and hardcores while the casual isn't interested in all the bantering going on in the forums. But if you ever played something like Lineage 2 you see the difference between hardcore, gamer and casual a lot easier. The hardcore is online 8-10h a day always at the best grinding spot buying some adena on ebay for his gear or doing events with the alliance to gather gear. The gamer tries to do what the hardcore does but only got 4-5h a day to do so. The casual does it alone or with a group of friends, focusing the social aspects over the progression curve. If you look at them after a year, the casual has outdated gear and is level 60, the gamers is level 78 and has up to date gear and the hardcore just started his second sub class and has high enchanted BiS gear for all his specs. (note: sub classes allow you to change the class of your toon to level 40 of another class and switch back and forth at an NPC allowing you to play your main character as an alt, so to say). Now that's an asian grind MMO in comparison to this the trend that WoW started to make it easier to "get new people into endgame" and focus all the attention on endgame makes it impossible for any new game to have the same curve that WoW had over time.

People that come from WoW just want to play another WoW with better graphics and different feel to it. Let's be honest, one doesn't look for new inovations or cool perks, one just wants to continue what one is good at with a fresh feel to it. (same reason why counter strike, battlefield, call of duty and halo are as dominant as they are and make it hard for new titles to be accepted)

I play less TOR than 20 hours a week. I read MMO-C while only at work.

Don't paint us all by the same brush :P I didn't look at sithwarrior or darthhater for my specs either, since Jugg Tank is pretty damn obvious.