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  1. #1

    Level 50 Content - How did BW screw up end game this bad?

    Level 50 character progression in TOR has been done terribly bad and it ruins the feel of end game and shorten the longevity of fun of the game.
    The end game was designed so terribly that you would have thought they didn't even have 1 person with MMO experience on the design team.
    Beta feedback regarding this issue was of course ignored, probably due to having to ship in a rushed fashion. Heres a little story........

    Ry'zen is now level 50!

    Awesome, what do I do now?
    Got a couple quests that send me to Belsavis and to Ilum, couple of cool chains there that take me around new areas. Oh wait what is this, dailies?

    Aww I hate dailies but I guess its not too bad since they are new and a couple H2s and H4s that give some nice purple gear.
    What can I get for dailies? Oh shit a vendor, got some nice stuff on it. 120 comms?
    WTFBBQ thats insane, thats like 10 days of doing dailies for a piece, grrr, np I have grinded out worse things in a game and if i push it i can get those pieces in under a week.

    Dailies are done, what else should I do? Lets go run a hard mode flashpoint with some friends and see how that pans out.
    BT, why does it gotta be BT I hate this place,. Oh whatever wont be too bad with spacebarring. We are going to b spacebarring right guys?
    "Dude, did you get the daily/weekly?"
    Did I get the daily, what do you mean, there are more dailies, bleh, k Ill grab it?
    Run was pretty damn easy, trash was a joke, I got 2 purples and some alloy thing from last boss.
    No idea what all these different commendations are but I got like 5 different kinds from the run and the daily.

    That was pretty cool, kinda boring running a slightly harder version of an old FP with the same cut scenes and all, but whatever I got some shineys.
    What now, oh shit I havent PvPd in a while, guess I could go see how that goes.
    "Dude, did you get the daily/weekly?"
    WTF are you talking about now, there is another set of quests to get for PVP too?
    "Yeah dude, you gotta finish them you get purple boxes with gear sometimes"
    Purple boxes with gear? Fuck yeah sign my ass up lets do this, queue up.

    ----14 minutes later Queue pops ------
    Huttball, cool I like Huttball, this should be awesome
    ---- 2 minutes later Match Begins------
    "Dude its a full premade from "Sith Happens" in full BM gear, this is gonna suck"
    ----3 players have left Huttball ----
    Nah even if we lose we'll get some comms and valor right? Lets see how this goes
    FORCE LEAP BITCHES!!!
    *stunned, 4k, 4k, 6k, stunned, 6k - dead
    Wow did you see how fast I died? like 3 seconds
    "Dude you shoulda trinketed"

    Well we lost to that pre-made after they scored 5 times in 5 minutes and then camped us for the remaining 10.
    But the good news is I got my daily done after that and it only took 9 matches.
    5 wins and 4 losses, it didnt count 2 of the wins for some reason, not sure maybe its a bug or something.
    But I got my daily done, and I had enough comms to buy another purple box! I got 2 of these mofos now!
    Box 1..........BLAM -Empty WTF, oh shit ANOTHER commendation, wtf do these do anyway?
    Box 2......... BLAM -Champions Legs of the fallen badass, FUCK YEAH.
    Wait a minute, I got legs earlier in that BT run, bah, ok lets see what these PvP ones are about.
    Damn, Im no pro but these PvP legs are BADASS, why would i ever wear those crappy ones from that boring Flashpoint?
    Guess ill throw them on a companion

    Well PvP was fun, well not really but I did get some purple legs out of it, so thats nice.
    What about raiding, how does that work in this game, lets see if I can find a run.

    1. General - LF 1 more DPS For Normal EV, vent required, pst"

    Going to hop in that shit, sounds fun.

    ---You have been invited by Herpsandderps ---

    Ry'zen (Ops) - Cool so what planets should I head to for this stuff, Ilum?
    Coolguy-Solo (Ops) Nah man just fly over to that northern ship its all here.

    Hmm, all the raids are on one ship, kinda wierd, but convenient, lets do this.
    Coolguy-Solo (Ops) Dude, did you get the weekly?

    No shit, there is another quest like this for operations, wtf man my log is almost full due to those 16 grey quests I still cant abandon.

    Big Robot boss kinda cool, I got some purple token or somethings one more of those alloy things and some more currency.
    WTF is with all this currency, Im gonna have to get one of my nerdier friends to do a spreadsheet for me or something
    Gwar or whatever his name was easy, got my weekly done too! Oh yeah and another purple piece, that makes 2 this run, AWESOME.
    WTF are these pillars, whats that guy doing at that console

    Herpderps (Ops) Loot is in the middle get the box

    Hmmm, ok no idea what happened there but whatever Im game. Loot, hmmm another purple, thats 3 for 3? I love this loot system! My lucky day!
    Solo council – interesting fight, I pwned my guy
    No loot though, WTF, jk Im not greedy.

    SOA, cool fight, kinda repetitive with the phases but overall I had fun, seemed kinda easy though overall.
    Although this is the normal mode so that makes sense, wonder what loot is like.
    …..BLAM Lightsaber, OH SHIT YEA, gimme that.
    Lost on the mount roll but that’s cool cause I don’t have the credits for the training, DAMN YOU MISSION BASED GATHERING

    Little under 1 hour in that place and I cleaned up, 4 pieces, bunch more currency that I have no idea how it works.
    Guess Ill ask the fellas tomorrow, but for now it was a hella good day for a fresh level 50, BOOYA.

    - end of story -


    This same person from this story went on to run normal Karaggas the next day and was lucky enough to score 2 more pieces of gear and of course some more mysterious currency.

    This is just a snapsot of what is wrong with the end game progression in TOR.
    The design is fubar on many different levels.

    Issues
    Dailies/Weeklys – Way too many of them to keep up with, does not add anything fulfilling to the game in any aspect.

    PvP gear is easy to acquire and is superior to HM flashpoint gear (outside of final boss Columidrops)
    Side note Opinion: Level 50 PvP for a fresh 50 is terrible, RNG loot system is frustrating, and the bugs surrounding wins not counting is a letdown.

    Currency system is dreadful, convoluted, and does not give players a sense of accomplishment or working towards a goal.
    Saving up currency to buy a piece that drops elsewhere is terrible design, you could potentially save up for weeks (and it will take weeks) and buy a piece and the very next raid day you receive that item as a drop

    Operations – Gear drop rates way too high, only running normal mode for 2 weeks, most players will usually have 75% of their gear. I saw most players usually get 12 pieces out of 20 boss kills, this does fluctuate though.
    Normal mode operations for the most part are easier than the HM FPs, and sometimes are shorter, which leads to…

    HM FPs are not worth running (outside of final boss drops of columi and alloy), currency from bosses and completing is near useless.

    After a few weeks you have zero need to run the 4 man content, could possibly have all the daily gear from mission support vendor(or given up because of boredom), and all you can do to progress your character is wait on Hard Mode/Nightmare Raid nights (if youre guild can even do them), or try to grind through PvP ranks and gear disparities to gear for PvP.

    I still play TOR on my lower level characters, 10-49 WZ’s are really fun, but have lost all faith in level 50 content and I don’t want to mention Ilum PvP. I think these issues have turned off a lot of players and I am not sure BW even realizes that these issues are apparent.

    Looking to have my faith restored in the game, but it has been a roughy first ~ 3 months.

  2. #2
    Stood in the Fire viciouss's Avatar
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    Seems you want to do stuff to gear up rather then fun, for me that always killed the enjoyment of most of end game.
    If I weren't insane: I couldn't be so brilliant!

  3. #3
    Deleted
    Well the end game in not the best. But i dont think WoW classic was the best neither. - i started tbc

  4. #4
    Are you asking them to gate your gear progression ? That's more or less what it sounds like from your post. If that's the case I agree. The hyperbole is unnecessary however. It's not THAT bad. It just needs fine tuning.

  5. #5
    Quote Originally Posted by viciouss View Post
    Seems you want to do stuff to gear up rather then fun, for me that always killed the enjoyment of most of end game.
    The topic of the post is End game content and character progression.

    I want to have fun, I want to have a reason to log into the game and play my level 50 toons.

    It would be nice to have a reason to run different FPs on hard mode.
    The story is the reason to run them on normal mode and don't get me wrong i loved the story in TOR and the flashpoints incorporated it pretty well in some cases.
    Not so much in others.

  6. #6
    Stood in the Fire viciouss's Avatar
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    Maybe it is just me but most of the stuff mainly warzones at the moment I had alot of fun doing it gear was just an added bonus, If it is fun there should not be a need for a incentive.
    If I weren't insane: I couldn't be so brilliant!

  7. #7
    Quote Originally Posted by TonyIommi View Post
    Are you asking them to gate your gear progression ? That's more or less what it sounds like from your post. If that's the case I agree. The hyperbole is unnecessary however. It's not THAT bad. It just needs fine tuning.
    The main problem is the way that it is bad has already been solved by previous MMOs using other systems.

    If the route was suppose to be: Which looks like it was their intent.

    Flashpoints: Normal
    Operations : Normal
    Flashpoints: Hard Mode
    Operations: Hard Mode
    Operations: Nightmare

    Than running normal mode Ops should not remove all incentive to run HM FPs.
    Currently the design is exactly this.
    Mix in PvP gearing and the currency debaucle and its pretty bad.

    It is like WoW was in TBC except with Badges of Justice being used for buying Karazhan gear.

  8. #8
    this game is targeted at a casual audiance so it has to be easy at least for now so in the future OPs will get improved and made harder, if you dont like dailies dont do them as they dont take long to do, as for me im on my 3rd char so as soon as its 50 all i need is 5 days of dailies and i have 2 implants and 1 ear peice which is BiS, gear is not meant to be hard to obtain, as for pvp if your a serious pvper you will get every peice of gear you need eventually so if doesnt matter if its a little random.

    if you like pve content then who cares about getting gear as much, same with pvp you play it to enjoy it, this game is just starting out and BW has said they will keep improving it to what most of the fans want so just enjoy the game.

    Its not as if wow endgame is much more exciting as its just as easy, i was semi hardcore having cleared all content and 5/8 hc DS in the first few weeks it was out and it just bored me, i enjoy the pve in TOR even though its a little easier.

    Play the game on what you enjoy the most, wait a little longer for more improvements to be implemented as with all new MMOs it takes time to implement fixes and changes to the game.

  9. #9
    Stood in the Fire viciouss's Avatar
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    I do not see any problems with the pvp currency what problems are you having with it exactly?

    And I thought op/raid gear always trumped heroic/hard mode gear. It is what I did in wow and did not mind run dungeons to get ready for raids and get enough raid gear so I did not have to run dungeons anymore but I could if I wanted to.
    If I weren't insane: I couldn't be so brilliant!

  10. #10
    Deleted
    Quote Originally Posted by viciouss View Post
    And I thought op/raid gear always trumped heroic/hard mode gear. It is what I did in wow and did not mind run dungeons to get ready for raids and get enough raid gear so I did not have to run dungeons anymore but I could if I wanted to.
    Last boss in Hardmode FPs drops the same stuff you get in normal mode EV(which is piss easy) and even hardmode EV often drops the same stuff as Hardmode FPs(got 3 columni pieces out of Hardmode EV and one Rakata...go figure...)

    as it is right now you can pretty much skip any hardmode FPs and go directly to normal mode EV

  11. #11
    Quote Originally Posted by viciouss View Post
    I do not see any problems with the pvp currency what problems are you having with it exactly?

    And I thought op/raid gear always trumped heroic/hard mode gear. It is what I did in wow and did not mind run dungeons to get ready for raids and get enough raid gear so I did not have to run dungeons anymore but I could if I wanted to.
    I think you are missing what I am saying and are simply arguing because you think I am bashing your game, Im not.
    I'm simply pointing out that the end game is designed extremely poorly on many different levels.

    The leveling in the game is awesome, love the storytelling, and pvp from 10-49.
    The end game design was horrible, and in its current form will not improve.

    Even with a new content pack, unless they overhaul the currency system there will still be no reason to run the end game FPs.

    The PvP bag system is just underwhelming, I haven't seen the new changes theyve made to it, but it was so terrible for such a long time I just stopped PvPing on my 50. /shrug

  12. #12
    Stood in the Fire viciouss's Avatar
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    I am asking questions trying to see what the actual problem is I am not defending anything. Just never understood the need for a incentive. If something is fun you need a reason to do it?
    If I weren't insane: I couldn't be so brilliant!

  13. #13
    Another QQ thread.. oh good >.>
    Do you know what you sound like posting this thread?

    "There's nothing to do at 50!"
    - You have dailies, PvP, 10 raid bosses, 8 heroic dungeons

    "I hate dailies!"
    - So don't do them. You can get the same gear in this game through other means.

    "All these tokens are too complicated!"
    - Go around the fleet and you'll see the vendors for your marks. (Daily commendations on Ilum)

    "All I do is get steamrolled by premades."
    - That sucks, you should try to make some friends and get a premade going yourself. It is an MMO. BTW, how many games did you lose?

    "I lost 4/9, but that's unacceptable!"
    - Face desk.

    "I didn't even get credit for some of my wins!"
    - This is a legitimate complaint, but BioWare is working on the fix.

    "Then I joined a raid, but all the people in the group had stupid names!"
    - If you think a player has a stupid name, and it'll reflect on them having a retarded personality, don't play with them.

    "Who the F names their toon Herpsandderps?"
    - You certainly ran into a player with a stupid name...

    "I didn't understand the fights but we killed everything anyways!"
    - Hurray you got carried through the easy mode of the game?

    "And I got a whole bunch of loot!"
    - Grats

    "But I still don't understand these tokens!"
    - Go around the fleet, look at the vendors.

    "JUST KIDDING, That wasn't me at all! I was telling someone else's story."
    - OK....

    "AND THAT'S WHY SWTOR SUCKS!"
    - What...?

  14. #14
    Quote Originally Posted by libertine View Post
    Last boss in Hardmode FPs drops the same stuff you get in normal mode EV(which is piss easy) and even hardmode EV often drops the same stuff as Hardmode FPs(got 3 columni pieces out of Hardmode EV and one Rakata...go figure...)

    as it is right now you can pretty much skip any hardmode FPs and go directly to normal mode EV
    The thing that I think people seem to forget is that not everybody always has 8 people online and is ready and raring to go for an op. In fact most of the dudes in my guild just hit 80 and were only focusing on fps for now. Theirs 4 of us always regularly online so we can always run hard mode flash points. They system can use improvement but at the same time I'm also somewhat relieved I don't have to rely entirely on a raid to get gear. I have a couple ways I can go about it.

  15. #15
    TLDR....lol. So endgame is not what you expected it to be hmm? I would say stick with it, the game is still young. In the meantime, just pvp!

  16. #16
    nah, I dont agree at all.
    are you complaning because you got lucky with rng in both pvp and pve?

    that pvp gear, which is not completely useless for pve, can be aquired fast? have you played cataclysm in the first few weeks?

    I agree that the loot distribution in operations and flashpoints could have been handled better, but thats most certainly not a game breaker.

    and all of that could have been postet in this thread because it basically covers the same "problem"
    http://www.mmo-champion.com/threads/...id-progression

  17. #17
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    Jearle, i'm with ya...

    Most ppl who are serious about end game and consider endgame progression to be their fun in these MMO's also see where you're coming from.

    I posted something similar to this in another thread, but the lack of meaning to running hm fp's is such a waste of content. Using those FP's as a gating system is the only way i see them fixing it going forward, but i'm sure everyone will not agree.

    Lets just hope they can turn it around quickly. I'm not giving up just yet...

    Using this ease of progression as incentive to gain casual subscribers is a possibility i guess. But even casual gamers want a challenge. I still like the game and enjoy it casually only.

  18. #18
    Quote Originally Posted by viciouss View Post
    I do not see any problems with the pvp currency what problems are you having with it exactly?
    What am I seeing here? Ugh. I'll just tell you my experience with the shitty PvP currency. I've been Battlemaster for well over a month now, the first two weeks I did all the dailies, and how did I get rewarded? A shitty RNG system rewarded me with enough for one piece of gear; a lightsaber for 3 tokens. The past 2+ weeks I haven't even logged on to the game that much because PvPing is pointless to me. I'd rather grind my way up and buy a Battlemaster token than get handed shitty luck while others get the tokens and gear up faster by chance.

    Don't give some lame excuse, because playing a game like that isn't fun to anyone

    To top it all off, i recently logged in to the game a few days ago just to mess around in PvP. Did the dailies and got 2 tokens. After that I just said screw this game.
    Last edited by Bane123; 2012-02-28 at 11:26 PM.

  19. #19
    I was a bit worried about end-game, but after reading your little story I'm not. That all sounds fine. You ran some dungeons, did a raid and some BGs, and all of them had quests. I don't really see how that's bad. Also, of course warzones are going to be frustrating. Jumping into random large scale PvP is frustrating like in every game I've played.
    Ilum sounds annoying, but daily zones frequently are. Isle of Quel'Dalas is about the only daily zone in any game I've ever found super fun.

    Without trying to troll you, if you find a token system too hard to understand, have you played any video games? Non-cash currencies are a pretty staple element of a wide, wide range of games. Also, the planet-based commendations you earn while leveling are a pretty solid intro to the swtor token system, so it's not like they just sprang this system on you out of no-where. You have had 50 levels and at least the last decade of gaming to get used to that kind of currency system :P

    "It turns out the only signature he needed was my fist! ... But with a pen in it ... that i was signing with."

  20. #20
    It depends what you enjoy, I do PvP during the day and PvE at night. Did 16man NMM EV today and it was funny as fuck. Everyone loling about having a good time, Same for the PvP thats what the endgame is having fun and a laugh. If you dont then thi aint the game for you sadly.

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