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  1. #21
    Epic!
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    Quote Originally Posted by Larynx View Post
    It's terrible. It's worse than the wow forum. At least the wow forum has stupid "Punt a gnome" or "can I have a hug" threads to lighten to the mood, even if the stupidity level is equal.
    I am inclined to agree. Had a little read and just facepalmed.

    Complaints about the fact you have to travel to respec and that it costs?

    The travel things is probably worse than anything else. You can just click on the map and port to a town to re-spec. The game needs little money sinks like this just because it should.
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  2. #22
    I think there should be a dynamic event which takes a centaur to the power in a village. He will take a gold tax every day to sink our gold

  3. #23
    The Patient Bearcrest's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Eiserne Drossel View Post
    It was sarcasm, I know you really shouldn't use sarcasm over internet since it's hard to spot, but I just had to

    What I mean is, whatever we say, some people can't understand that Tanking doesn't work in this game. Even if you try to get the best defense, with traits and weapons, it won't work, you WILL go down if you don't dodge, and let someone else take the enemy for a while.

    But some people just continue with ''You're not really able to take away the trinity anyway''

    That's why I said, or more like meant: ''Yeah, trinity won't disappear for you guys until they remove that you're able to take damage from enemies''

    It's hard for me to explain what I mean, since my english is limited, but it sounds so much better in my own head.
    Sounds about right in mine aswell :P
    I think you are right, there is these hardcore MMO-tankers (not meant as an offense so bear with me) who beliefs as long as you spec in defensive traits and spec skills for more defense makes you a "tank", it really doesn't it just lets take 10-15 more hits than a two-handed spec (testing is still needed though to be 100% certain how defensive trait speccing works).
    Without taunt and/or treat migation working system there really is no tanking in GW 2. Whether you want it or not

  4. #24
    Taken from http://www.pcgamer.com/previews/guil...ions-answered/

    8. Does the Holy trinity (healer, tank, and DPS) exist in the game or not?

    Josh: As someone who didn’t play a ton of Guild Wars, it’a still a bit weird to me that there’s not a defined capital-T Tank or capital-H Healer, but you definitely do still need someone filling those roles in groups. The difference is that my character is not a healer, but I can act as one in a group. In a lot of MMOs, you have to choose to be a healer, tank, or DPS—and that defines what you’re capable of doing everywhere in the world. In GW2, most classes have the toolset to be DPS and either a healer or tank, and can just swap out the weapons, attunements and utility skills to perform that role when needed. My Engineer could bring out health packs and healing turrets and shields if my group needed someone to heal them, or swap them out for rocket launchers and landmines if we wanted damage. The roles still exist, but you aren’t as rigidly forced to pick one and stay with it forever.

    Gavin: I played Guild Wars and things still feel a little weird, but in a good way. In the first game, tanks were essentially the person who initiated a pull or, at the very least, was the first person to encounter the mobs before they reached the group. In Guild Wars 2, I found that my warrior and guardian characters seemed to pick up aggro much easier than the other classes I played, yet it never guaranteed that the enemy would stick to me or that I’d survive long enough to be effective. The only time I felt as though I was truly tanking was when I took the first barrage of hits when pulling a new group. If nothing else, my role as ‘tank’ felt more like being a utility class. I set up my skills to provide extra healing benefits or damage control and the heavy armor and traits allowed me to soak up more damage than casters. I felt as though everyone weaved in and out of every role at some point during the dungeon, which was often a welcomed change of pace.

  5. #25
    Quote Originally Posted by Dhrizzle View Post
    Josh: As someone who didn’t play a ton of Guild Wars, it’a still a bit weird to me that there’s not a defined capital-T Tank or capital-H Healer, but you definitely do still need someone filling those roles in groups. The difference is that my character is not a healer, but I can act as one in a group. In a lot of MMOs, you have to choose to be a healer, tank, or DPS—and that defines what you’re capable of doing everywhere in the world. In GW2, most classes have the toolset to be DPS and either a healer or tank, and can just swap out the weapons, attunements and utility skills to perform that role when needed. My Engineer could bring out health packs and healing turrets and shields if my group needed someone to heal them, or swap them out for rocket launchers and landmines if we wanted damage. The roles still exist, but you aren’t as rigidly forced to pick one and stay with it forever..
    This is pretty much my opinion of the matter, and was trying to make people understand that the trinity is gone, but there still exists tanking and healing (in a sense). And many people couldn't agree on that part.
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  6. #26
    I think we all know by now that tanking is gone in any form we would recognise in gw2. This doesnt mean that defensive traits should be less useful than dps talents, or else everyone would just spec into damage and dodge everything. It makes sense that there will still be situations where defensive minded players will want to protect the weaker dps specced people in a 'tanky' way, as much as they can.

  7. #27
    While it is obvious that it's impossible to just "stand there and tank/healspam" different people will have different combat orientation. So after a proper fight there will be always people who done more damage and those who supported/healed more than others. The beauty of GW2 system is that even while doing damage people can heal themselves/their party members.

    It's all about proportions though, I'm afraid that with current changes the difference in healing output of fire traited elementalist and water one, just got even larger. Is it good or not.. I'm not decided on that yet.

  8. #28
    The most efficient means of trait distribution is 30p in the line which grants a stat that can't be gained elsewhere. The profession resource mechanic. If one intended to deal lots of damage as a Warrior for example, it take about 5 mins of looking figure out the most efficient means to go about this; 10 Strength / 30 Discipline / 30 Arms.

    You'd ensure near 100% bleed uptime with the most adrenaline to damage talents available. Assuming AP and Crit are 1:1 per weight, the only line with synergism is Discipline which can raise the base multiplier of a crit.

    The profession resource lines offer tremendous benefit. Some of those are passive CDR which is one of the highest means of throughput aside from actual penetration.

  9. #29
    Quote Originally Posted by Fencers View Post
    The most efficient means of trait distribution is 30p in the line which grants a stat that can't be gained elsewhere. The profession resource mechanic. If one intended to deal lots of damage as a Warrior for example, it take about 5 mins of looking figure out the most efficient means to go about this; 10 Strength / 30 Discipline / 30 Arms.

    You'd ensure near 100% bleed uptime with the most adrenaline to damage talents available. Assuming AP and Crit are 1:1 per weight, the only line with synergism is Discipline which can raise the base multiplier of a crit.

    The profession resource lines offer tremendous benefit. Some of those are passive CDR which is one of the highest means of throughput aside from actual penetration.
    haha you're such a PVE-er

  10. #30
    Quote Originally Posted by harkonen View Post
    The easiest example would be an elementalist, who has a quite clear trait system.
    The elementalist is probably the worst profession you can pick as an example, because more than any other they benefit from role flexibility. What point is there to quickly be able to switch between four attunements that each has two or three 20+s cooldowns if you aren't going to use them and instead stay in a single attunement spamming a basic attack.

    Anyway, back to the topic. I see three potential issues that can occure with traits/talents/attributes and the like that allow you to modify your character:

    * Specialization winning over Versatility - This is basically the holy trinity issue when you boil it down to the basics. And while we can't be sure for certain, even with the traits versatility looks to have the upper hand right now. And the way the skill system is setup with cooldowns and 5 weapon skills makes it very unlikely that specialization will prevail. But you really have to wait for 6 months after the game is released to be able to tell for certain.

    * Future proofing against the first issue - A big problem with traits/talents as seen in other mmos is that as new expansions with new levels come out, the character becomes more and more dependent on the traits, and hence more locked towards a certain role. In the end, what started out as hybrid class become basically pure spec. A good example is WoW, where in vanilla you could play very much like a true hybrid with some classes. By the time you reached WotLK, that was pretty much gone. And in Cataclysm they basically turned it into 30 distinct classes. This isn't an immediate problem, but something to worry about in the future.

    * Decreasing group versatility - What happens if all 5 group members are traited for damage only. Will it be still be possible for them to run an example dungeon with the proper skill and utility selection, or do someone have to go and pay to respec. This is the biggest immediate issue, and one worth debating. It is also why I think the respec issue on gw2guru isn't stupid or wrong. Making traits a "locked" part of your character can create problems when grouping for higher difficulty content. It is at a minimum a worthy concern.

    Without actually playing the game, all we can do is speculate while hoping that Anet are aware of these issues. While I place some trust in them, it could mean that I am setting myself up for a bigger disappointment. But only time will tell.

  11. #31
    Quote Originally Posted by Wildclaw View Post
    The elementalist is probably the worst profession you can pick as an example, because more than any other they benefit from role flexibility. What point is there to quickly be able to switch between four attunements that each has two or three 20+s cooldowns if you aren't going to use them and instead stay in a single attunement spamming a basic attack.
    I chose the elementalist as an example because its clear to see that each trait line benefits a specific stance / attunement.

    ---------- Post added 2012-02-29 at 06:40 PM ----------

    Quote Originally Posted by Wildclaw View Post

    * Specialization winning over Versatility - This is basically the holy trinity issue when you boil it down to the basics. And while we can't be sure for certain, even with the traits versatility looks to have the upper hand right now. And the way the skill system is setup with cooldowns and 5 weapon skills makes it very unlikely that specialization will prevail. But you really have to wait for 6 months after the game is released to be able to tell for certain.
    yeah this was my point really. By specialising you arent removing basic utility, but you are choosing something more specialised that you will excel at. This seemed at odds slightly with the 'change to suit the situation' system I had seen discussed at expos last year.

    From what I see though, is that utility isnt there in the first place for some classes. As you said the elementalist is hard to pin down, but a warrior can only switch between 2 weapon sets in combat as far as I know, and this seems to limit them to 2 roles only, as their support is tied into the warhorn for example.

    I am also a little worried that by choosing a certain trait line will make selectable skills far more limited. For example a dps focussed warrior being forced to pick 3 selectables that benefit from the stats that you have raised, because they would be much better. This would limit versatility even further.

    A good example of this is as a staff guardian you get a skill that removes conditions from surrounding players onto yourself, and there is a selectable that removes all conditions and turns them into boons. It seems that in a group situation a staff guardian would really want this, and choosing another selectable would be quite a loss.
    Last edited by harkonen; 2012-02-29 at 06:54 PM.

  12. #32
    Quote Originally Posted by nighties View Post
    haha you're such a PVE-er
    Hehe, yah. Have zero interest in MMO PVP. May as well have a flight sim or car racing component in an MMO for all it'll interest me. ;P

  13. #33
    Herald of the Titans zcks's Avatar
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    As others & I have said survival is all about preventing damage from happening in the first place in GW2.

    That ^ can be done though a variety of mechanics & abilities like

    1: Dodging.

    2: Situational awareness. (almost every AOE shown so far has had a visual representation of where it will hit before hand by at least a second or 2)

    3: Movement speed debuffs & kiting. This can easily be done much the same way it is done to ret paladins in WOW pvp. The concept is simple if your not in melee range then melee attacks cannot hit you. (this is even easier to do in GW2 then it is vs paladins in WOW because you can cast while moving).

    (#2 & 3 also make swiftness/run speed buffs very valuable)


    4: Damage absorb effects & block mechanics, almost every profession has them.

    5: Lastly line of sight. In GW2 very few projectiles are homing ones, if you take advantage of #1-4 or duck behind a wall or behind an ally then the projectile will hit it/them instead.

    ---------- Post added 2012-02-29 at 01:04 PM ----------

    Oh also forgot to note the blind debuff that makes the targets next attack miss & the aegis buff which is given by guardians who activate their virtue of courage (aegis blocks the next attack against you making it do no damage).


    Oh btw speaking of guardians I managed to find a trait build with the new calculator that allows guardians to put up an insane amount of the burning & blind debuffs, it should make them quite valuable in groups for preventing damage.
    Last edited by zcks; 2012-02-29 at 07:06 PM.
    The way balancing for WOW PVP works is allot like American politics.
    1: Be lazy & ignore problems till the yelling is so loud your cant concentrate.
    2: Refuse to do the things you have Said need to be done, then make up reasons why they cannot be done.
    3: Lay the blame for problems on someone else even when it's your fault because you did all of the above.

  14. #34
    Quote Originally Posted by zcks View Post
    As others & I have said survival is all about preventing damage from happening in the first place in GW2.

    That ^ can be done though a variety of mechanics & abilities like

    1: Dodging.

    2: Situational awareness. (almost every AOE shown so far has had a visual representation of where it will hit before hand by at least a second or 2)

    3: Movement speed debuffs & kiting. This can easily be done much the same way it is done to ret paladins in WOW pvp. The concept is simple if your not in melee range then melee attacks cannot hit you. (this is even easier to do in GW2 then it is vs paladins in WOW because you can cast while moving).

    (#2 & 3 also make swiftness/run speed buffs very valuable)


    4: Damage absorb effects & block mechanics, almost every profession has them.

    5: Lastly line of sight. In GW2 very few projectiles are homing ones, if you take advantage of #1-4 or duck behind a wall or behind an ally then the projectile will hit it/them instead.
    I dont see what this has to do with versatility though. I think most people know about DR and movement in gw2 by now. I know the thread is pretty derailed by now, talking about tanking etc, but that versatility can mean the aoe heals, buffs/debuffs, melee vs ranged damage, toughness and resilience etc etc.

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