Just die already!

[Rhywolver]

Oh come on, isn't it fun to play 10 paladins against 10 paladins in WoW? /jk

I don't know, I have to try it out. Combat will we longer, yes, and in my opinion you don't have so many ways to avoid combat (e.g. sitting on a mount and just ignoring the enemy because you want to do task x in your battleground).

Maybe bringing your enemy to a downed state is all you need to do in some cases - from what I have seen you will take one of the opponents 'Fight-to-Survive'-options away if you just walk away from him.

[Zeek Daniels]

if players have so much survivability in PvP then why is it i see so many players dieing in structured pvp where u have all traits and skills?

[Jovanaar]

if players have so much survivability in PvP then why is it i see so many players dieing in structured pvp where u have all traits and skills?

Because not everyone might play his/her class as it's best, best is to wait for the next beta to judge that.

[DrunkenBeard]

Hello, I'm an engineer and I enrage at 25%

This is my build

[Deleted]

If it's balanced with other professions, I just can't see why not.

Thing is every profession have access to this, actually engineer doesn't look so good next to elementalist or a warrior when it comes to that type of builds.

if players have so much survivability in PvP then why is it i see so many players dieing in structured pvp where u have all traits and skills?

As I could see from the videos, people who played press beta (at least most of them) did not even looked at traits or just assigned them randomly. They didn't have time to sit down and actually brainstorm the weapon skills not to mention trait system.

[Howlee]

2. Structured PVP

[...]Considering that structured PVP is about objectives and less about kills, those traits make it very hard to take over a point. It also promotes push/knock-back/launch skills over damage skills, it's not worth/efficient to kill anyone, but just remove them from the objective by sending them flying.

This is no different to WoW. If your intent is to sieze an object (for example WSG flag/AB nodes/AV gy/ EotS bases etc etc) you are FAR better of using cc or knockbacks than trying to kill the player guarding said object.

Your description of the GW2 system as "don't kill the player, remove him" promotes and rewards good play and thinking out of the zerg-box.

[Deleted]

Your description of the GW2 system as "don't kill the player, remove him" promotes and rewards good play and thinking out of the zerg-box.

I totally agree, but the thing is, where do we mark the line? I mean, with current design those type of skills can get the utmost priority which in end can alienate most of the specs or even whole professions and I think we can all agree that we don't want Build Wars 2.0, but Guild Wars 2.

[Deleted]

I think you are forgetting that those 'anti-death' mechanics don't last that long. People won't all be running around at 25% all the time because they become unstoppable. I think the amount of damage people can do will negate most of the concerns you have with these mechanics.

[DrunkenBeard]

One should also keep in mind that not going for the kills means that you get no gold/loot. So yes, if you want to be that guy who is somewhat difficult to kill but doesn't have the power to kill anyone himself, by all means, do it. It's a play style that will certainly have its uses, and it's certainly not something that GW2 should try to "fix" : different builds should have different strengths and weaknesses. We could possibly see in the future squad comps based on different build-types : scouts, defenders, diversion agents, front-men, support, patrols, etc.

[Deleted]

Yeah I think that you are definitely right with regards to keeping an objective 1v1, it will surely be better to focus on survival and running around the node preventing a cap, that's what I do as a healer on SWTOR for example. However, it is negated when there are more people involved. The survival procs won't keep you alive long enough to make the specc imbalanced as opposed to have stronger offense when there is a 2v2 situation and the other guys focus their attacks to rip you apart. Atleast that's how I would design the trait choices when it comes to balance.

[Jovanaar]

Thing is every profession have access to this, actually engineer doesn't look so good next to elementalist or a warrior when it comes to that type of builds.

As I could see from the videos, people who played press beta (at least most of them) did not even looked at traits or just assigned them randomly. They didn't have time to sit down and actually brainstorm the weapon skills not to mention trait system.

I'm wondering how this will turn out though.

[Himora]

I prefer pvp where Cooldown/Skill timing & usage, positioning, outplaying.. player skill determines the victor. not who has the highest burst, most stuns & best gear.

[Lucky_]

Yes they do, from 30 to 90 sec. The problem lies not in the cd but in the amount of possible CDs you can stack, granting you a "second" life ON TOP of downed state.
Traits? Heal for 0 =]. Traits allow for abilities to be triggered by going under 25% health. For example clearing cooldowns of your personal heal spell.
Regeneration on elementalist with 12555 hp gives 91hp per tick (every second). That's roughly 1% per second
Lol this is not discussion about downed state... It's about things that happen BEFORE that.
You made no point, well maybe except that you are uninformed ^^.

My question was, is it ok to have the ability to stack so many automated defense cooldowns. For example, engineer traited this way: http://www.gw2tools.com/calc/#t-e-aa...aa.ZeV.Zdb.aaa at 25% of HP will gain:
- regeneration, 1% hp every second, permanent as long as you have kit equipped
- removed stun
- dodging attacks for 4 seconds (without using the dodge bar)
- totally immune to conditions
- boosted power of heals
- reduced damage taken by 33% from protection
- all cds from healing skills cleared

All that.. AUTOMATICALLY without any of the player's input. Is it strange only for me?

First of all, automated response will definitely get nerfed to hell if it hasn't been already. It's a total nullifier for any condition based build. Seems more of a placeholder then anything, else a completely mandatory thing to take for any PvP build at 10 points into the tree. Massively OP even with a long CD attached.

That said, people already have pretty damn huge health pools, and battles look like deaths of thousand cuts more then anything. Added survivability will be annoying, but I suspect that such builds will be pretty harshly penalized in terms of usefulness (and eventually nerfed, just their counterparts in GW1 were nerfed).

That said, I still remember retarded stuff like monk balls in prophecies and paragon armor stacking in nightfall. When I was doing single damage CRITS with my 14 scythe mastery paragon's high damage scythe SKILLS to a bloody MONK with no defensive skills but paragon armor shouts who was playing with 7 paragons who all stayed in one ball and didn't care that I was cleaving about half of their GvG group with every hit because of all the armor...

It happened quite a lot with GW1, and I absolutely expect them to step on that rake again, just like they did a lot in GW1. But they'll eventually figure it out and nerf it.

---------- Post added 2012-03-01 at 01:58 PM ----------

I'm wondering how this will turn out though.

Reference: Paragon balls in nightfall. Last couple of characters didn't really matter as long as they could heal and help with spikes. And that sort idiocy got through to retail in every major release of GW1 campaigns.

/signed proudly zerged a frikkin' pug guild to #3 on GvG ladder mid season with balanced stance + drunken blow x2 + fear me "mooseway". The most retarded build of them all. Took izzy weeks to fix that silliness.


So much of this will probably make it into retail, and get fixed a month or two after release if GW1 is of any example.

[Speedy92286]

I believe it's something that will have to be balanced when the game finally is available to massive amounts of people so that they can theory craft the crap out of it.

Yeah, I can see your point with your example here:


But I believe there is a counter weight to all that survivability: damage.

Sure, you're going to be hard as nails to kill and pin down, but you won't be doing hardly as much damage as someone who pumped points into Firearms and Explosives. As long as there is a counter weight to those survivability and damage choices there can be balance.

Once again... something that has to be tweaked as the game goes on. I don't see a problem with the automated defense CDs.

Sums up my thoughts on the topic. It doesn't matter how long you can survive if you can't kill something. Unless you are just going to be sitting on a flag all day, the build won't be very useful.

[Lucky_]

Sums up my thoughts on the topic. It doesn't matter how long you can survive if you can't kill something. Unless you are just going to be sitting on a flag all day, the build won't be very useful.

There were some silly moments in press beta when person would chain res everyone and do nothing else. I imagine a survivability engineer build, with all the turrets, mines and other off-character support, and significant survivability would make a very powerful addition to the team.

[Blufossa]

Ehh, even with all the "survivability" Traits and whatnot in those videos, I still saw a lot of them "die" permanently in WvW/PvP a lot.

It "might" become an issue in PvE, but that's what the next Beta Test Weekend will be for, to tell them it needs balancing or whatnot.

[Tuqui-tuqui]

There were some silly moments in press beta when person would chain res everyone and do nothing else. I imagine a survivability engineer build, with all the turrets, mines and other off-character support, and significant survivability would make a very powerful addition to the team.

The idea is great, I agree. And you will be useful to your team by being able to delay a cap and surviving longer than others around you. But I would not call it a powerful addition. There are no tanks in this game. Eventually you will fall against 2+ players. But like Speedy, and BloodHunter, keep bringing up: Survivability might be a trade-off for damage. And if you can't kill anything, how does your character progress?

[Jovanaar]

The idea is great, I agree. And you will be useful to your team by being able to delay a cap and surviving longer than others around you. But I would not call it a powerful addition. There are no tanks in this game. Eventually you will fall against 2+ players. But like Speedy, and BloodHunter, keep bringing up: Survivability might be a trade-off for damage. And if you can't kill anything, how does your character progress?

How can you compare the difference between damage and healing if you don't know the exact numbers or the outcomes of the fight, you can't check everything on paper (at least on this point), we'll see when the next beta hits.

[Tuqui-tuqui]

How can you compare the difference between damage and healing if you don't know the exact numbers or the outcomes of the fight, you can't check everything on paper (at least on this point), we'll see when the next beta hits.

Of course. We will need to see numbers from true number crunchers in the next beta.

By the way, I was talking about survivability (not healing). But to humor the topic, here is a quote from Lewis B of Tap-Repeatedly about the trade between damage and survivability in the ranger (I'm trying to find the exact quote location for you):

Quote Originally Posted by Lewis B (press-beta player)
On the flip side, I tried the complete opposite and went for a “DPS RANGER!!!!” by throwing everything I had into damage and traits that would aid damage. It was also a disaster. My health pool and defence were crippled and whilst my damage could be considered good, the sacrifice was a health pool of less than 15,000 that would see me die in just 3 hits from a Warrior. Having looked back at the footage this morning that I recorded, I simply couldn’t release it because all it would show people (because you can’t see my traits) is that rangers are made of glass. This just isn’t true. Whilst some people may enjoy this play style, it’s a recipe for disaster and isn’t viable.

So, for now, in beta, which was played but not so optimal testers, players need to keep a balance between surviving and killing.

[DrunkenBeard]

but that's what the next Beta Test Weekend will be for, to tell them it needs balancing or whatnot.

I read that as "that's what the Beta Test next Weekend will be for" and had a very brief moment of true joy