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  1. #21
    Quote Originally Posted by Farora View Post
    Pvp in wow, getting worse each expansion.
    Ehm i think the new talents will cause more imbalance than making PvE gear weaker for PvP...
    El Psy Congroo

  2. #22
    The talent changes are a completely different topic. I love the idea, and while I feel some of the trees still need some tweaking, i think they are going to work incredibly well. Some of those choices man.....they are SO hard to make just because I can see them serving different purposes. If they make it to whereby you can make an unstoppable force of destruction, then they have failed, and that's all on blizzard.
    Fire type. 0834 1013 9676

  3. #23
    Damn I'm tired of the fricken whiners. All you see is just qq here and qq there... it was just announced and run to the forums in protest. It's not even in a test phase for players to see, hold your crying until then.

    It does make sense, to me. PvP player has Defense and Power. PvE player has less Defense and no power. PvP player has greater advantage. Lower damage taken but higher damage to the guy dressed in raid epics, it's really quite simple.

  4. #24
    Quote Originally Posted by Stalemate View Post
    Damn I'm tired of the fricken whiners. All you see is just qq here and qq there... it was just announced and run to the forums in protest. It's not even in a test phase for players to see, hold your crying until then.

    It does make sense, to me. PvP player has Defense and Power. PvE player has less Defense and no power. PvP player has greater advantage. Lower damage taken but higher damage to the guy dressed in raid epics, it's really quite simple.
    Except it isnt.

    "PvP gear will be lower in item level than PvE gear of an equivalent tier, however the Power and Defense stats will make sure that PvP gear is more powerful in PvP (both offensively and defensively) than PvE gear."

  5. #25
    Yo can be tired of it all you like. When comes out and PUBLICLY STATES THEIR EXACT INTENTIONS and I quote

    "The goal of this change is to make it easier for a PvP player to participate in PvE, or for a PvE player to get started in PvP. "

    But the changes DO NOT do what they are stating (one half doesn't count in my book) then there is definite cause for concern. I have also stated that WE DO NOT HAVE THE NUMBERS TO VALIDATE IT. I understand this. My point in the first place was THE LOGIC BEHIND IT DOES NOT MAKE SENSE.

    The barrier for pvp players to pve will indeed be lowered. The opposite, with what we know right now, is not true. That's all there is to it.
    Fire type. 0834 1013 9676

  6. #26
    After having read most of the comments here ive decided this: These changes do not do anything to change the current state. Much like the removal of ArP casue they wanted to reduce the anount of stats that were hard to math out, they then add another stat (Mastery) which is equally hard to quantify. Low and behold, we now have PvP Defense aka Resilience given base line. Now where this fails is here: The problem IS resilience, Giving it baseline to everyone does nothing. Think of it in DPS terms, if blizzard were to give everyone a 5% buff and a 5% health increase, the net result is the same, everyone has it it changed nothing.

    MoP- Heres MoPs design philosphy-

    Were all given a static number of damage reduction...you increase this but acquiring more "Defense" Gear, also on this "Defense" gear, there is "Power". With better PvP weapons/armor you get more "Power"...Whilst the new guy effectively still has zero of both, due to the 30% being baseline. Aka he still gets raped.

    Cata- Heres BC/Wrath/Cata's design philosophy-

    Were all given a static number of damage reduction (zero)...you increase this but acquiring more "Resilience" Gear, also on this "Resilience" gear, there is "Str/Agi/Int". With better PvP weapons/armor you get more "Str/Agi/Int"...Whilst the new guy effectively still has zero of both, due to the stats being baseline. Aka he still gets raped.

    So in MoP, not only should you not use PvE weapons, the gap to close in entering PvP is even larger! (Just figuring numbers here) Th PvP Warrior now has 52% Dmg reduction, and 50% Power...Completely negating the 30% Blizzard gave you...

    TLDR...Blizzard is making a mistake, and are choking the life from both aspects of this game.

    Also...Wheres the incentive not to wear PvP gear in PvE, We get taxed now in PvP, it had better come full circle.

  7. #27
    Quote Originally Posted by runawaybishop View Post
    Currently getting 2.3k resilience is as simple as buying the crafted pvp gear, JC neck and rings. Getting 3k takes nothing more than acquiring 2 more pvp set pieces, which include +400 resilience. Crafted ilvl is 377. Its not really hard to enter PVP.

    These changes appear to make it easy for top PVPs to do PVE without changing gear, as they are only 1 tier behind. On the other hand, a PVE player with top tier PVE gear is entering PVP with 0 power and 0 defense on their gear.
    This a 1000x this...where did the notion that the "entry" point of PvP is 2400+ Arenas

    Quote Originally Posted by Asher13 View Post
    Yo can be tired of it all you like. When comes out and PUBLICLY STATES THEIR EXACT INTENTIONS and I quote

    "The goal of this change is to make it easier for a PvP player to participate in PvE, or for a PvE player to get started in PvP. "

    But the changes DO NOT do what they are stating (one half doesn't count in my book) then there is definite cause for concern. I have also stated that WE DO NOT HAVE THE NUMBERS TO VALIDATE IT. I understand this. My point in the first place was THE LOGIC BEHIND IT DOES NOT MAKE SENSE.

    The barrier for pvp players to pve will indeed be lowered. The opposite, with what we know right now, is not true. That's all there is to it.
    What part of "player to get STARTED in PvP." does not makes sense to you? so you get globaled by a gladiator in a bg so what? Is this the end of your participation, one death in one battleground/arena? These lines cannot be drawn so fine there has to latitude to your argument, if you are expecting to get to the upper areas of ANY progression PVP or PVE its gonna take a little time and effort, sorry.

    Quote Originally Posted by Zeverin View Post
    I really don't get why Greg Street says he wants to ease the transition between PvE and PvP so players can do both, then he says how they're trying to make PvE and PvP gear useless in the opposite area.
    this is exactly my point, that is not what he said at all, he was talking about the PVPers who would use PVE weapons of the current tier because they either can't get to the higher rated weps or use them because in some cases the procs can be more attractive. He was simply saying these weapons would be less effective as the PvP weps...not USELESS...just not as good as they are now. How does this become so black and white for some people?

    Quote Originally Posted by runawaybishop View Post
    Except it isnt.

    "PvP gear will be lower in item level than PvE gear of an equivalent tier, however the Power and Defense stats will make sure that PvP gear is more powerful in PvP (both offensively and defensively) than PvE gear."
    what are you talking about he clearly explained how its is intended to work, how could you possibly misunderstand their intention?!?!
    Last edited by epiccollision; 2012-03-02 at 03:52 PM.

  8. #28
    Quote Originally Posted by Zeverin View Post
    I really don't get why Greg Street says he wants to ease the transition between PvE and PvP so players can do both, then he says how they're trying to make PvE and PvP gear useless in the opposite area.
    exactly my thought

  9. #29
    I agree with the OP. It doesn't make sense.

    They said they want to make it easier for someone in PvE to start doing PvP.

    Solution:

    1) Give everyone baseline resil (uh? if everyone has it, what difference does it make?)
    2) Make PvP gear have even MORE PvP stats (resil + counter resil).
    3) Your PvE gear is now even MORE useless in PvP!
    4) Now it's easy to start doing PvP!

    Someone explain to me how someone will find it easier to enter PvP now.

    Just for reference

    Quote Originally Posted by Blizzard
    The goal of this change is to make it easier for a PvP player to participate in PvE, or for a PvE player to get started in PvP. Currently, we feel it is too large a barrier to go from one to the other, and the result has been that we see more and more players choosing to focus exclusively on only PvP or PvE.
    Yes, they are making PvE gear LESS useful in PvP, because their intent is to make the transition easier.

    This doesn't make an iota of sense.
    Last edited by Seegtease; 2012-03-02 at 03:57 PM.

  10. #30
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    This isn't going to fix anything long term. Instead of making changes like this they should hire people who know how to balance PvP.
    Or they could try listening the community for once.
    Heyoo!

  11. #31
    Quote Originally Posted by Seegtease View Post
    I agree with the OP. It doesn't make sense.

    They said they want to make it easier for someone in PvE to start doing PvP.

    Solution:

    1) Give everyone baseline resil (uh? if everyone has it, what difference does it make?)
    2) Make PvP gear have even MORE PvP stats (resil + counter resil).
    3) Your PvE gear is now even MORE useless in PvP!
    4) Now it's easy to start doing PvP!

    Someone explain to me how someone will find it easier to enter PvP now.
    Its very simple to figure out if you can define what the word "enter" means to you. I'm not being sarcastic or condescending, if our definition of a term or word differs greatly then that makes it nearly impossible to discuss the issue with any sort of context or perspective. What does "enter" mean to you? or anyone else for that matter that takes issue with the subject they are trying to address with these changes.

    this is my definition, focusing on 1 and 3a:

    Definition of ENTER

    intransitive verb
    1: to go or come in
    2: to come or gain admission into a group : join —often used with into
    3a : to make a beginning <entering upon a career>
    Last edited by epiccollision; 2012-03-02 at 04:01 PM.

  12. #32
    The Lightbringer MasterHamster's Avatar
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    Makes perfect sense, and when it's implemented you'll adapt and work with it. And it'll be better than now.

    ---------- Post added 2012-03-02 at 05:01 PM ----------

    1) Give everyone baseline resil (uh? if everyone has it, what difference does it make?)
    2) Make PvP gear have even MORE PvP stats (resil + counter resil).
    3) Your PvE gear is now even MORE useless in PvP!
    4) Now it's easy to start doing PvP!
    1) Base resilience counters high player damage vs health pools, even if you're PvE geared.
    2) PvP gear will still be pvp-ish
    3) PvE gear is more powerful, meaning you'll do more damage, therefore you're a bit more of a threat that you are in PvP now
    4) Yes, because of the reason above

    Quote Originally Posted by Farora View Post
    Pvp in wow, getting worse each expansion.
    Yes, the glory-days of PvP was when it was dominated by PvE tier players, oneshotting people.
    PoM-pyro
    BC PvP was also glorious, resto druid + warr/rogue/mage
    WotLK PvP was okay, when burst was rediculous

    *sigh*

    put things into perspective for once.

    This isn't going to fix anything long term. Instead of making changes like this they should hire people who know how to balance PvP.
    Or they could try listening the community for once.
    Sadly they're better at balancing pvp than the community whose sole feedback is to nerf rogues and mages.
    Last edited by MasterHamster; 2012-03-02 at 04:04 PM.
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  13. #33
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    Quote Originally Posted by Zeverin View Post
    I really don't get why Greg Street says he wants to ease the transition between PvE and PvP so players can do both, then he says how they're trying to make PvE and PvP gear useless in the opposite area.
    They're useful for the transition, not for long-term usage. The idea is you'll be replacing them as you go, but until then, the stats won't be totally useless. At the moment, PvP gear has a large portion of its budget eaten up by Resilience, making PvP armor and weapons far worse in PvE than their PvE-itemized opposite number (assuming all things are equal, such as item quality and item level), while the lack of Resilience on PvE gear often means PvE-geared players in battlegrounds and arenas get blown up too quick to really be of use to their team.

    With a flat 30% damage reduction, PvE-geared players can still make some contribution to their team's success while farming battlegrounds for a set of Honor gear, and with Power/Defense both being free stats on the budget, PvP gear's main stats (Str/Stam/Agi/Int/Spi) won't see such a drastic drop when compared to PvE gear, making it easier for someone who mainly BGs or arenas to build up a set of PvE gear for use when they get the itch.

    Now, what GC was saying is that neither would be ideal for anything more than making the transition--PvP gear has a lower item level in MoP, so you'll be wanting to replace it with the higher-item level PvE drops as soon as you can, while you're going to want more Power and Defense as quick as possible to remain competitive long-term in BGs, and to increase your performance and survival, which in turn further increases your performance, which nets you better gear to increase performance and survival, etc.

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  14. #34
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    Quote Originally Posted by Seegtease View Post
    I agree with the OP. It doesn't make sense.

    They said they want to make it easier for someone in PvE to start doing PvP.

    Solution:

    1) Give everyone baseline resil (uh? if everyone has it, what difference does it make?)
    2) Make PvP gear have even MORE PvP stats (resil + counter resil).
    3) Your PvE gear is now even MORE useless in PvP!
    4) Now it's easy to start doing PvP!

    Someone explain to me how someone will find it easier to enter PvP now.

    Just for reference



    Yes, they are making PvE gear LESS useful in PvP, because their intent is to make the transition easier.

    This doesn't make an iota of sense.
    You forgot a step

    1) Give everyone baseline resil (uh? if everyone has it, what difference does it make?)
    2) Make PvP gear have even MORE PvP stats (resil + counter resil).
    3) Your PvE gear is now even MORE useless in PvP!
    4) ???????
    5) Now it's easy to start doing PvP!

    Blizzard emloyees are Underpants-Gnomes

  15. #35
    Quote Originally Posted by MasterHamster View Post
    1) Base resilience counters high player damage vs health pools, even if you're PvE geared.
    2) PvP gear will still be pvp-ish
    3) PvE gear is more powerful, meaning you'll do more damage, therefore you're a bit more of a threat that you are in PvP now
    4) Yes, because of the reason above
    1) Yes, but they also have it. It just draws out the fight that you're doing to inevitably lose.
    2) Yes. Even more pvp-ish
    3) PvE gear isn't more powerful. PvP stats are going to be free stats. Meaning they won't count against the item level. So if you have the same item level, the people will PvP gear will have more resil, but still the same stats.

    Quote Originally Posted by epiccollision View Post
    Its very simple to figure out if you can define what the word "enter" means to you. I'm not being sarcastic or condescending, if our definition of a term or word differs greatly then that makes it nearly impossible to discuss the issue with any sort of context or perspective. What does "enter" mean to you? or anyone else for that matter that takes issue with the subject they are trying to address with these changes.

    this is my definition, focusing on 1 and 3a:

    Definition of ENTER

    intransitive verb
    1: to go or come in
    2: to come or gain admission into a group : join —often used with into
    3a : to make a beginning <entering upon a career>
    This doesn't address anything. If we're going by the strict definition of enter, then this changes nothing. We can "enter" PvP right now in our PvE gear. Nothing is stopping us from entering in the strictest sense, so there's nothing to be made "easier". Since they're claiming to be making it "easier", then they obviously are using the word enter to mean "enter and have a chance".

    Now, as an aside, let me say that I can see how this might make switching from PvP to PvE easier, since resil will not count against your gear, you will have no stat itemization wasted. Your gear, based on its item level, will be just as good. You just won't be able to cheat item level anymore (which, technically, makes "entry" harder, but at least it has to be legit now).
    Last edited by Seegtease; 2012-03-02 at 04:11 PM.

  16. #36
    The Lightbringer MasterHamster's Avatar
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    Maybe this is why PvP can't be "balanced" in the eyes of those who think their opinion is worth making threads about.
    Narrowminded and unable to put anything but your own view into perspective.

    PvP today is far more skill-based than it ever has been, and if you disagree you're just ignoring obvious flaws because "Well expansion X PvP maybe was a bit Y, but Z was awesome"
    No. PvP in classic was not skillbased, it was entirely gear-based.
    BC PvP was not skillbased, it was based on combos.
    WotLK PvP was based on burst.
    Cata PvP is a lot more focused on managing abilities, because you WON'T be stunlocked to death, unless you're at 0 res that is. Then again damage has grown a lot since 4.0 and I'm not denying it.

    MoP PvP is in early alpha, with new stats you can throw tantrums about, in the end you know NOTHING about how it'll turn out.

    3) PvE gear isn't more powerful. PvP stats are going to be free stats. Meaning they won't count against the item level. So if you have the same item level, the people will PvP gear will have more resil, but still the same stats.
    And that's why PvP gear in MoP will always be one tier below PvE gear. Even if "Resilience" isn't factored into the stat budget, PvE gear will deal more damage

    No, I'm not claiming PvE geared players will be equal to PvPers, but the gap WILL be less wide than it is right now.
    Last edited by MasterHamster; 2012-03-02 at 04:12 PM.
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  17. #37
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    Quote Originally Posted by RadmaKanow View Post
    And Blizzard can go even further. Add flat 5% bonus to power/def stat when all slots are PvP (much like armor specialisation/mastery that boost your agi for Hunter's when all armor is mail). Then noone would use Legendary for extra dps as they will lose significant amount of stats.
    This actually sounds like the starting point of a more elegant solution than the one they are proposing.

    Instead of two new gear stats for PvP, why not have one pvp stat on gear (with faction specific names, hopefully). Then give each class (or spec) a passive "PvP Mastery" ability that increases both defensive and offensive effectiveness against player characters depending on how much of the new stat is on their gear. That way if they find a certain class or spec is over/underperforming in PvP, they can tweak the passive ability for that class/spec.

  18. #38
    The Lightbringer MasterHamster's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by taurvanhiel View Post
    This actually sounds like the starting point of a more elegant solution than the one they are proposing.

    Instead of two new gear stats for PvP, why not have one pvp stat on gear (with faction specific names, hopefully). Then give each class (or spec) a passive "PvP Mastery" ability that increases both defensive and offensive effectiveness against player characters depending on how much of the new stat is on their gear. That way if they find a certain class or spec is over/underperforming in PvP, they can tweak the passive ability for that class/spec.
    Write a constructive post about it in an appropriate feedback thread and they'll perhaps see it.
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  19. #39
    The way it is worded to me appears that the power will allow you to do more damage against another player. So what it appears they are doing is pvp gear will be better against another player (hence PVP gear) and PVE gear will be better against a raid boss (hence PVE gear). Meaning in simplistic terms:

    A PVP Weapon will hit another player for 1000 damage.
    A PVE of the same teir will hit another player for 500 damage.

    A PVP Weapon will hit a raid boss for 500 damage
    A PVE of the same teir will hit a raid boss for 1000 damage.

    (This is just how i took it when reading the blue post)

    So basically they want to eliminate the use of PVE gear in PVP at high end and reduce the use of PVP in PVE. However with the 30% base you will allow individuals who are just starting PVP but have PVE gear to survive a bit longer and will make BG matches more competitive.
    Last edited by Hypnozis; 2012-03-02 at 04:24 PM. Reason: Clarity

  20. #40
    Is it me or is this change like..
    Players: Blizzard, we don't like resilience, CHANGE PLEASE!
    Blizzard: Ok let's just steal this pvp stat SWTOR has I guess.
    Players: How does this even help?
    Blizzard: Well it does because we say it does!

    That's kind of how it comes over to me, sorry if I offend anyone lol :P

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