Hunter + Singletarget fight = DI ?

[Zeherah]

Zereah, consider copying kilee's t13H profile into the sim you use to generate your DI ranking. Simcraft's default T13H profile for spriest doesn't account for usage of the 4-set bonus. As well, the t13H balance druid profile is about 100 haste below 2nd haste plateau with NG, so balance comes in about 200 dps higher using the default profile than after manually reforging it.

Thanks for the pointer to that thread. I must be blind though, because I can't seem to find a link to the spriest profile kilee uses. If I had that I could update using the appropriate data. What you mention about boomkin would definitely explain why they were coming in higher than expected too. The numbers for fire mage are lower there as well, I'm not sure what's causing that difference except that they used an affliction lock (they said that's the dominant spec but I thought demo was dominating- looking at raidbots they're very close).

[Dracodraco]

Thanks for the pointer to that thread. I must be blind though, because I can't seem to find a link to the spriest profile kilee uses. If I had that I could update using the appropriate data. What you mention about boomkin would definitely explain why they were coming in higher than expected too. The numbers for fire mage are lower there as well, I'm not sure what's causing that difference except that they used an affliction lock (they said that's the dominant spec but I thought demo was dominating- looking at raidbots they're very close).

Demo locks should deffo be more common, as only demo locks / elem shamans provide 10% sp, and due to the stigma around elems, many guilds doesn't even have one .

[Deleted]

well i ran on low haste so that i get more dps do to DI :> i get 3k dps with DI @ ultraxion - me only doin 44,3k :< without 41,xk

btw 818 haste only.

[zakaluka]

Edit: This thread has an older version of kilee's actionlist. http://www.mmo-champion.com/threads/...kilee+spike+DI - make sure you're using the right one, there are several actionlists posted. OP's actionlist misses a few things, look on page 2 for kilee's.

kilee is pretty active here on MMO and also at H2P. She's posted her spikespam spriest T13H profile here on MMO in the past, but I don't know if it's changed since then. Basically I'm suggesting that you send a PM, I'm sure she'd be happy to send over all of her settings for another theorycrafter with presence in the community

As for fire mages i have very little idea. I do know that how quickly a potential DI target stacks feedback on the warlock greatly affects the warlock's opener. This effect is probably significantly different for different warlock specs. Uptime might also affect affliction more severely? But really that doesn't make a ton of sense since it's just a flat %dps boost. I do agree - from the warlocks i've spoken to aff seems the weak spec at the moment, but what do i know.

Anyway, i don't have any real input. Just hoped you'd coordinate with kilee since a lot of this work has already been done

[Zeherah]

Thanks, I PMed kilee and got the right actionlist, and I've added it to my chart as a separate entry. I'm still not sure what to do about the boomkin one.

I could re-run the numbers with affliction to see if they come out differently- it may be that the DI uptime factors more into the warlock dps with affliction since they're more heavily dot oriented, and both feral and SV hunter have higher uptime than fire mages, so maybe that's the issue.

But really the main question for us hunters was figuring out where we should be in the pecking order, and I think we've confirmed that the current data places SV below the top 3 dot classes but above most others (we seem to be relatively tied with feral druids but definitely above ele shamans now). Interestingly, we are #1 for warlock dps, which makes us good for those selfish warlocks who are more interested in personal than raid dps.

If I'd known kilee had done this yesterday, I probably wouldn't have bothered running these numbers- I've been looking for updated data but I hadn't seen any, but I really don't follow shadow priest forums The warlock thread on DI hadn't been updated in forever.

[McSpriest]

After seeing this in another thread i must ask here,



Is this true? Do we beat out Spriests and boomkins on singletarget for dps benefit and uptime for the lock?

short answer? No

long answer? although there are other targets the benefit really applies to your specific raid comp. for example if there is not many other dot classes then yes a survival hunter can be DI. a lock should never DI another lock as half the buff is lost (doesn't benefit from its own haste) in that case if you are one of two dot classes you can be DI. also if you are significantly better in dps than any other dot class you can argue to get DI.

having said all that. hunters have 3 dots. one with near 100% uptime, one with about 50% uptime and another than varies uptime based on L&L procs. a spriest has 4 dots. 3 with near 100% uptime, 1 with 50-75% channeled uptime (mindflay counts as a dot for procing DI). boomkins have 3 dots with near 100% uptime. restro druids have multiple hots (uptimes vary based on fight and damage going out). holy priests have hots, and on a fight like ultraxion, a holy pally will keep it procc'd near 100% of the time. fire mages have multiple dots. rogues, feral druids, ele shams and warriros all have some dots (some as bleeds). even DK's have 2 dots with near 100% uptime and unholy have a third with 75%-100% uptime, although they benefit less from haste therefore they are a poor choice.

Hunters are not the worse choice for DI, but they are far from the best. a lock shouldn't DI a hunter unless there isn't and equally skilled spriest, boomkin, or fire mage

---------- Post added 2012-03-04 at 12:48 PM ----------

well i ran on low haste so that i get more dps do to DI :> i get 3k dps with DI @ ultraxion - me only doin 44,3k :< without 41,xk

btw 818 haste only.

thats a terrible reason

DI gives a percentage of haste it's better in the hands of someone who highly values haste, you just proved that you obivouly don't. hunters gain a very small boost to dps from haste when compared to another class receiving it

[Arcanimus]

having said all that. hunters have 3 dots. one with near 100% uptime, one with about 50% uptime and another than varies uptime based on L&L procs. a spriest has 4 dots. 3 with near 100% uptime, 1 with 50-75% channeled uptime (mindflay counts as a dot for procing DI). boomkins have 3 dots with near 100% uptime. restro druids have multiple hots (uptimes vary based on fight and damage going out). holy priests have hots, and on a fight like ultraxion, a holy pally will keep it procc'd near 100% of the time. fire mages have multiple dots. rogues, feral druids, ele shams and warriros all have some dots (some as bleeds). even DK's have 2 dots with near 100% uptime and unholy have a third with 75%-100% uptime, although they benefit less from haste therefore they are a poor choice.

Just to nitpick:
Boomkins have 2 Dots. Moonfire and Sunfire are mutually exclusive.
Fire Mages have 4 Dots, one of which is on a cooldown (combustion), one of which is proc reliant (pyro), and one of which cannot crit (ignite).
Hunters' Serpent Sting has 100% uptime, Black Arrow has 70% uptime at worst, and Explosive Shot at its absolute worst is about 40% uptime(i.e. no LnL procs) but is actually around 60% or greater, depending on LnL.

[Count Zero]

I can get DI in my raids, though I'm parsing 49k on Ultraxion without it so...

So ... you're the best hunter in the world ?

http://raidbots.com/dpsbot/Ultraxion...60/default/#s0

This link shows the top-100 hunters' (from public logs) dps breakdown on Ultraxion 25h. The highest logged dps by a hunter is 48k. I'm sure there are of course plenty of guilds that don't share their logs publically, but ... I'm gonna need some proof to accept your claim.

[Argg0]

a spriest has 4 dots. 3 with near 100% uptime, 1 with 50-75% channeled uptime (mindflay counts as a dot for procing DI). boomkins have 3 dots with near 100% uptime.

Actually, their DoTs are 75-80% uptime and 40-50% on mind flay. They also are pretty bad on keeping the stack up for the lock and they will not even have one dot rolling while the fiend is up.

[Herecius]

So ... you're the best hunter in the world ?

http://raidbots.com/dpsbot/Ultraxion...60/default/#s0

This link shows the top-100 hunters' (from public logs) dps breakdown on Ultraxion 25h. The highest logged dps by a hunter is 48k. I'm sure there are of course plenty of guilds that don't share their logs publically, but ... I'm gonna need some proof to accept your claim.

http://www.worldoflogs.com/rankings/...rvival_Hunter/
It's not quite as uncommon as you think, raidbots is far less reliable than simply... you know, checking logs.

[Count Zero]

http://www.worldoflogs.com/rankings/...rvival_Hunter/
It's not quite as uncommon as you think, raidbots is far less reliable than simply... you know, checking logs.

I didn't say it was unbelieveable -- just that I'd require proof to believe. And since raidbots works directly from wol parses, I didn't think it'd be off. I stand corrected.

[Zeherah]

With regards to the uptime question, in addition to the fact that SV hunters actually have a very large amount of dot uptime, you also have to keep in mind that for most caster specs crit is actually fairly low priority on their itemization, certainly for boomkins and ele shamans, can't speak to fire mages and shadow priests. For SV crit is our preferred secondary stat, and since we have to spend less of our itemization on hit than they do, we generally run fairly high on it relative to casters (plus we glyph for extra crit chance on explosive shot). So not only do we have a fairly high amount of dot uptime, but a high percentage of our dot ticks are crits. This is why we rank so highly in terms of damage provided to the warlock.

The main reason SV hunters aren't higher on total raid dps from DI is strictly based on the value of the 3% haste from the buff, which just doesn't benefit us nearly as much as casters and doesn't increase our dot ticks.

[Herecius]

I didn't say it was unbelieveable -- just that I'd require proof to believe. And since raidbots works directly from wol parses, I didn't think it'd be off. I stand corrected.

Mind you, you are quite correct still.. 49k is super duper high to consistently pull.

Also, many thanks to Zeherah here for going over the DI numbers again for us, extremely helpful.

[Deleted]

thats a terrible reason
DI gives a percentage of haste it's better in the hands of someone who highly values haste, you just proved that you obivouly don't. hunters gain a very small boost to dps from haste when compared to another class receiving it

nono hes my mate and we got no mages boomkins shadowpriest - only an elemental shami - doing only 26k *cry* so :> its mine.
well the comb is lil'bit crazy - enh shami/ele shami/sv hunter/afli lock/fury warri ~.~ and palaheal doin sometimes the ret :>

[Jigsawe]

Mind you, you are quite correct still.. 49k is super duper high to consistently pull.

Also, many thanks to Zeherah here for going over the DI numbers again for us, extremely helpful.

Another thing to consider is that despite these numbers having a ranking corresponding to damage increases. It is highly reliant on how well said classes perform in comparison to each other on a raid to raid basis. For instance, even if shadow priests have a higher % damage gain from DI than a hunter, a hunter doing say 51-52k compared to a spriest doing 43-44k with DI (sadface) is going to get more of a benefit, see link

http://oi44.tinypic.com/141341h.jpg