View Poll Results: What do you prefer ?

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  • I prefer just porting anywhere from the entrance

    21 25.30%
  • I like shorter instances with abit of walking

    12 14.46%
  • I'd like a similar solution you made

    50 60.24%
  • Other!

    6 7.23%
Multiple Choice Poll.
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  1. #1

    Raid design / layout [self drawn map incl.]

    Hello people,

    I’ve been wanting to start a thread about dungeon layouts/design lately. Ever since early TBC raid and dungeon maps have gone backwards in terms of exploring cool and exciting locations.

    What we’ve seen in the past 2 expansions are raid/dungeon designs that don’t tell you why you can suddenly teleport to the other side of the instance simply because you killed boss X. That to me makes 0 sense, whatsoever. A raid instance that did it really good was actually, Naxx. Naxx had a ton of bosses and all fairly easy to reach. If they would have let us mount in that place it would have been perfect.

    The thing that breaks my feeling of exploring the most is being able to teleport to every boss. Now don’t get me wrong, I don’t like running either but this I dislike almost just as much.

    Best example here is Dragon soul: > Trash > boss > teleport > repeat.

    I noticed that I got bored of Dragon Soul really really quick. And that is not even because of the boss fights, but simply because the entire Raid feels like a movie …

    What I need / want is a cool dungeon crawler !
    Not boss fights with a teleport !!

    Now, I know allot of people wonder how I would like to see this fixed and the answer to me is fairly simple, I thought of a raid map with 11 ! bosses and still made them fairly easy to be reached. Walking time is fairly short. (enable mounts would make it even better)

    Alright, don’t judge my drawing skill :P took me 5 min but allow me to explain!:


    - Entrance NPC standing there telling a story about the dungeon (quest: Lower bridge!)
    - 1st boss
    - To the left 2nd optional boss
    - To the right a bridge you can’t cross from this side
    - Straight ahead a jumping game (noob check ) with the 3rd boss
    - After 4th boss complete quest, lower the bridge (new quest: Set sail ).
    - Boss number 5 and 6 and optional
    - 7th boss
    - 8th boss optional (notice you can cross the bridge and jump down from the 4th boss platform to make the run quicker)
    - Continue onwards and break the tree that’s blocking the river. (you can now teleport towards the 9th boss and complete the quest set sail (you see a skippable movie).
    - Now you can kill the 9th 10th boss
    - And then finally the big bad final boss.

    LFR could split it up in 3 parts:
    -Objective: lower the bridge
    -Objective: Set sail
    -Objective: Kill final boss thingy

    Now I hope that made sense 
    Anyway letme know what you think about the dungeon layouts lately compared to what we used to have back in classic (think BRD, maraudon, UBRS/LBRS stratholme etc.).
    - Do you prefer bigger dungeons with allot of bosses ?
    - Do you prefer teleporting over something like I suggested ?
    - Anything else ! 

    Keep it civil please, and don’t laugh at my English, thank you.

    ps: Yes i know blizzard aint reading this, this is for the sake of discussion
    Last edited by Chrno; 2012-10-04 at 09:34 PM.
    Quote Originally Posted by laserguns View Post
    But do they have data showing how much fun players are having? Because surely that's what counts. You could have a game where only 1% of players can do the top raid but still everybody's having fun, and you could have a game where 100% of the players see everything but they're all bored and whining and quitting. Fun can't be quantified with straight-up data, and trying to use statistics to measure fun is a dangerous logical minefield.
    "The Perfect Raid Design Drawn by me .

  2. #2
    Herald of the Titans Lilija's Avatar
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    I prefer teleports than some gimmick that is nothing more but a teleport in disguise.

    Also the idea of optional bosses is kinda meh. You end up with half of raid wanting to skip and the other needing it.

    And yeah, I do prefer smaller dugeon. I gues I could live with 11 bosses but size of FL/DS is what fits me the most so far.
    Last edited by Lilija; 2012-03-02 at 01:38 PM.

  3. #3
    Quote Originally Posted by Lilija View Post
    I prefer teleports than some gimmick that is nothing more but a teleport in disguise.
    Like i said, it actually is a teleport
    It's just that i often miss the story part in dungeons and reasons why we can teleport to places.
    Quote Originally Posted by laserguns View Post
    But do they have data showing how much fun players are having? Because surely that's what counts. You could have a game where only 1% of players can do the top raid but still everybody's having fun, and you could have a game where 100% of the players see everything but they're all bored and whining and quitting. Fun can't be quantified with straight-up data, and trying to use statistics to measure fun is a dangerous logical minefield.
    "The Perfect Raid Design Drawn by me .

  4. #4
    Herald of the Titans Lilija's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Chrno View Post
    Like i said, it actually is a teleport
    It's just that i often miss the story part in dungeons and reasons why we can teleport to places.
    "A wizard did it"

  5. #5
    Immortal Sigma's Avatar
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    Multiple Bosses, Non Lineir, Optional bosses, a freeking waterfall! Love it.

    For Me and a dare say many, Ulduar is the pinacle of raid's in the entire game, simply because of its size and enviroment, from what I have read this looks like you are also inspired by the size and optional routes that ulduar provides.

    however, its just a shame that blizzard will never do a raid of such scale again
    Quote Originally Posted by Acelius View Post
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  6. #6
    Mechagnome
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    I personally don't enjoy the in-raid cinematics that we see every time. It's not like any other raid had previously needed it. (Imagine seeing the LK crying each time you killed one of his "generals" in ICC)

    I don't really mind teleporting around, and while Naxx has an excellent layout, there's only so many times you can copy it.

    The map is cool though. Posts need more maps.

  7. #7
    Immortal Sigma's Avatar
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    gone for other on the poll, I dont like porting around an instance like theres no tomorrow, it takes away a lot of the atmosphear. sure, certain points work and ye being able to run into a raid, portal straight to the boss and get ready is a great time saver, but can you remember the long ass run backs from Vashj in SSC ? I know I can, and the one thing they taught me is that repeatadly wiping due to stupid shit was bad. Where now someone can accidently pull and wipe the raid, and people are back in place in under 90 seconds. hardly enough time to reflect on what can be avoided.
    Quote Originally Posted by Acelius View Post
    Sigma : Super Intelligent Giant Moldy Anchovy

  8. #8
    One thing that's for sure is that Blizz went way too far with the portaling around in DS. Good models were for example BT, with a portal to the central area after you killed Shade of Akama, to Mother S after she was downed and to Illidari Council after they were downed. You had to run a bit, but it was still manageable. The only CR that was maybe "too long" was Shade of Akama and Mother S, but hey, you wouldn't really wipe on those bosses anyway, not much at least.

    Even Firelands and T11 had it just fine, but DS is just too much.
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  9. #9
    Quote Originally Posted by Sildor View Post
    One thing that's for sure is that Blizz went way too far with the portaling around in DS. Good models were for example BT, with a portal to the central area after you killed Shade of Akama, to Mother S after she was downed and to Illidari Council after they were downed. You had to run a bit, but it was still manageable. The only CR that was maybe "too long" was Shade of Akama and Mother S, but hey, you wouldn't really wipe on those bosses anyway, not much at least.

    Even Firelands and T11 had it just fine, but DS is just too much.
    I agree, i had almost forgot about BT portalling to the centre map was indeed a nice touch
    Quote Originally Posted by laserguns View Post
    But do they have data showing how much fun players are having? Because surely that's what counts. You could have a game where only 1% of players can do the top raid but still everybody's having fun, and you could have a game where 100% of the players see everything but they're all bored and whining and quitting. Fun can't be quantified with straight-up data, and trying to use statistics to measure fun is a dangerous logical minefield.
    "The Perfect Raid Design Drawn by me .

  10. #10
    Teleports are ok, as long as they're not covering for lazy instance design.

    Ulduar needed them because its so damn big. DS has them because they couldnt be bothered making new zones.

  11. #11
    YES PLEASE!

    Great raid layout thoughts! I would really like that more then how DS is currently. Add a lot of trash with small "mini"-bosses and make it so that the trash do not respawn for 24 hours
    Well met!

  12. #12
    The Patient welcome2life's Avatar
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    The problem I have with dragon soul is that it isn't like exploring a new dungeon at all. It's a map that we've already experienced with a building we've already visited... we teleport to a single room raid we've already done. We visit rooms that are nearly identical if not identical (I haven't noticed differences but maybe someone has). This design is interesting I think it could be executed in a good way. Also comments about optional bosses: It can be a good mechanic because then instead of beating your head on one boss you can try another for a change of pace although the skipping issue does come into play. I was fortunate enough to be part of a guild that believed in downing all bosses during the time of option bosses and therefore had a fairly good experience with them when they cropped up.

  13. #13
    The Patient Flagobha's Avatar
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    well, i agree. Less teleporting and more running. Also, would be nice with like 15 bosses wich you can pick almost in wich order u want, but to unlock the last 2 bosses you need to kill the first 13

  14. #14
    Bloodsail Admiral chemicader's Avatar
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    I really like the idea of disguising teleports in a clever way, keeps the feeling of exploring. Also I prefer 8-10 bosses raids with lots of detail in the actual raid zone, DS did it quite well but we wont see it that often because of all the teleports and the positioning of the bosses. What I meant there is that instead of having Morchok in front of Wyrmrest, make us run past it to an area he is in, bring up the faceless generals on the ground level and have them stand on a corrupted are or something. Also I dislike the facts that I have to use several teleports to reach the destination it gets kinda annoying. The best solution to this is IMHO similar to yours.
    Kudos to you sir.

    ---------- Post added 2012-03-15 at 09:11 AM ----------

    Quote Originally Posted by Flagobha View Post
    well, i agree. Less teleporting and more running. Also, would be nice with like 15 bosses wich you can pick almost in wich order u want, but to unlock the last 2 bosses you need to kill the first 13
    Or bosses which change weekly with a shared loot? and on heroic mode you kill them all at the same time? Sounds badass
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  15. #15
    Stood in the Fire thedronk's Avatar
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    I agree, screw teleporting!
    Running, Jumping, Swimming, Riding, Boating, Flying, Falling, Elevatoring????
    Btw I would totally raid that design you put up

  16. #16
    Stood in the Fire Gottie4u's Avatar
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    This is amazing!! I would love a similar layout such as this one.
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  17. #17
    Quote Originally Posted by thedronk View Post
    I agree, screw teleporting!
    Running, Jumping, Swimming, Riding, Boating, Flying, Falling, Elevatoring????
    Btw I would totally raid that design you put up
    thanks
    just to be clear tho, i don't like 5 min long corpse runs like morther sharaz, lady vashj or the mage in karazhan. But by all means, let us open secret passages, lower stairs, jump down ridges for the sake of immersion.

    It's the teleport option DS has that i hate. ICC and Ulduar and others had teleporting aswell but at least then you could choose to run, in DS that is simply not the case.
    Quote Originally Posted by laserguns View Post
    But do they have data showing how much fun players are having? Because surely that's what counts. You could have a game where only 1% of players can do the top raid but still everybody's having fun, and you could have a game where 100% of the players see everything but they're all bored and whining and quitting. Fun can't be quantified with straight-up data, and trying to use statistics to measure fun is a dangerous logical minefield.
    "The Perfect Raid Design Drawn by me .

  18. #18
    Scratch that.
    Last edited by Clampy; 2012-11-23 at 03:16 PM.

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  19. #19
    Stood in the Fire Desh's Avatar
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    Is it just me or does that map resemble WC?

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  20. #20
    Herald of the Titans
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    The map you drew looks kind of like Molten Core's map.

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