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  1. #61
    Jeez.... people just either don't know their WoW history because they are new to the game (in which case WELCOME) or they are so focused on whining about something they forget it.

    Enter the ICC 5mans in Wrath. ToC loot (T9) was 232 on 10man. ICC 5man loot was 232.

    In other words... it's been done before, it will continue to be done.

  2. #62
    Pandaren Monk Velshin's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Anarchor View Post
    I think they're sort of shooting themselves in the foot a bit by making the new 5-man gear "just as good" (or better) as the last raidtier.

    There is no point in going to Firelands (unless it's heroic mode) since it drops ilvl 378 stuff just like 5m HoT HCs do. Duh.
    Now. I think this is bad. Because only having 1 raid-dungeon to do is really too little in my opinion. 8 raidbosses? Hardly enough to keep a person busy with every week.
    I would've made 5m HoT HCs drop ilvl 368 gear or something, so there still would be an incentive for pugs to go do FLs. I know people might feel bored with a previous tier, but once again that was because you had very little variation, just like you're getting bored of DS now because it's only 8 different encounters everytime.

    Back in Vanilla I remember doing BWL/AQ40 every week, it gave a good sense of variety. Then when Naxx released we focussed only on Naxx until we managed to clear the place and then we went back to AQ40/Naxx runs. There just was much more variety to the encounters and it kept people interested in raiding much longer.
    Thank you good sir for completly understand my point. My point about lowering the 5 man dungeons item lvl is to make players busy more than just the latest raid so players will not get bored easily and feel the lack of content.

    ---------- Post added 2012-03-03 at 06:32 PM ----------

    Quote Originally Posted by Honen View Post
    Jeez.... people just either don't know their WoW history because they are new to the game (in which case WELCOME) or they are so focused on whining about something they forget it.

    Enter the ICC 5mans in Wrath. ToC loot (T9) was 232 on 10man. ICC 5man loot was 232.

    In other words... it's been done before, it will continue to be done.
    I know mate it's been done in fact before wrath. It started with the sunwell patch with mgt 5 man.

    I want to make things clear for everyone that the point of my opinion first of all it's just an opinion I never said they should do it and I never said I'm right 100% ofc not. I'm not against casual who get the same gears as me in 5 man or whatever I'm in fact one of the casuals I don't play the game a lot anymore. The point of my opinion is to make players busy not only with the latest raid but also the previous raid run them to progress them not only run them for fun or achiev or heroic mode but the feel of the progress. By doing that the lifespan of the raids will be longer than now and if players get bored by DS for example they can still go FL normal or heroic still viable for them.

    For the people saying it will penalty the alts and stuff like that I don't think it's as big penalty as you think because valor random epics still there, crafting epics still there, and the LFR still there. My focus change was about the 5 man item lvl only without taking away the other features.
    Last edited by Velshin; 2012-03-03 at 06:36 PM.

  3. #63
    High Overlord abrakadaver7's Avatar
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    gearing up is just so fast right now. and the same people that like this system are the ones that find the game boring after a month and come here to complain. it should be reworked somehow. end-game basically means nothing to the people that aren't able to commit to a raiding guild. they get their epics a day after dinging, go to LFR once and that's it. at least ZG/ZA were remotely hard.
    VII.

  4. #64
    Quote Originally Posted by Traknel View Post
    No, OP, I think YOU are the ONLY one that should ever get loot. From anywhere. Because you're JUST THAT AWESOME, and you need to be recognized for your awesomeness. People from all over the world should come and gather around you to fawn over you and exclaim over how unique and special you are.

    One hundred beautiful virgins should walk in front of you wherever you go, throwing specially grown rose petals on the ground so your feet never touch anything so common as the earth. Because you are INCREDIBLE. And AWESOME. And UNIQUE.

    Too much?

    Why attack the op like that? He was not being elitist at all; his reasoning wasn't "omg even n00bz can has gear" it is because it ruins the incentive to do the previous tier.

    OT: The system is best as is in my opinion because it allows people who come in late to still participate, where as before (i.e. bc) if you came late in the xpac you had to go through all the previous tiers and either two things happened 24 other people had to do old content that was of no use to them to carry you through it, or you were unable to raid.
    nothing but empty space here bro. move along now.

  5. #65
    Moderator MoanaLisa's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by TheSerialSniper View Post
    Why attack the op like that? He was not being elitist at all; his reasoning wasn't "omg even n00bz can has gear" it is because it ruins the incentive to do the previous tier.

    OT: The system is best as is in my opinion because it allows people who come in late to still participate, where as before (i.e. bc) if you came late in the xpac you had to go through all the previous tiers and either two things happened 24 other people had to do old content that was of no use to them to carry you through it, or you were unable to raid.
    I guess people have been conditioned to consider all of the tiers in an expansion as relevant content. Blizzard seems to be moving towards 'current tier only' as a definition. I'm disappointed with that but would point out that moving forward from here it will be somewhat easier to get access to previous tiers through LFR. The problem with even having an incentive to do the previous tier is that by this point, very few are doing it and it's difficult to get a group together to do if you only log on a few days a week. Having come to the game in the middle of B.C. myself I'm inclined to agree that trying to catch up sucks, asking people to carry you sucks, and that having a path to gear up quickly without any of that is a better way of going about it.

  6. #66
    5 mans shouldn't even drop loot unless they're proportionally difficult compared to the quality of loot dropped, ie like Magisters Terrace was.
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  7. #67
    Quote Originally Posted by Velshin View Post
    Hey everyone just wanna hear about your opinions of this matter, do you think it will be a good idea to make all new 5 man dungeons loot equels even if some of them released after the first tier raid content?

    In my personal opinion I think it will be a great idea because this will prevent the old tier contents of the expansion get obsolete (not sure how to spell it sorry :P). This will make the players progress and farm old tiers to prepare for the latest raid tier content.


    Now some people will say: Hey but if they make all loots equel even for the new 5 man dungeons this mean players will not even bother do them and instead rather do the easy ones the ones that released with the expansion. That may be true but they can solve that by making the new 5 man dungeons have some awesome rewards like mount, pets, achievements, and some unique gimmic loots ( dagger that makes you mind control some mobs for fun and stuff like that).

    Discuss please.
    New tier raids with new tier dungeon!
    Relevant entry level gear for raid, from current tier dungeon, and not for valors, but from killing bosses.
    Valor gear was introduced to soften the blow of RNG to people that were raiding, and ended up being the way for people to get raiding gear WITHOUT raiding!

    I suggest new dungeons to provide the gear for new raids, for new alts and people that are coming back from break, rather than valor points.
    Valor point should be covering fewer slots and mainly gear like, neck -back -ring -trinket (relic slot is going out), and one of wrist -feet -waist, with the other 2 of those being covered from crafting professions.
    The gear should be previous tier heroic raid level quality, higher than LFR loot, lower than normal mode raids
    And from dungeons there should be dungeon sets as well! A poster here suggested it, and i find it a wonderfull idea!

  8. #68
    Mechagnome Boogieknight's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Anarchor View Post
    I think they're sort of shooting themselves in the foot a bit by making the new 5-man gear "just as good" (or better) as the last raidtier.

    There is no point in going to Firelands (unless it's heroic mode) since it drops ilvl 378 stuff just like 5m HoT HCs do. Duh.
    Even if the new dungeons didn't drop 378 there's no reason to ever run Firelands when Dragon Soul drops higher item level unless you want achievements or you're one of the 7 casters who hasn't gotten the legendary finished. As long as the system is in place for one tier to completely replace the previous then the underlying new heroics need to be upped by an appropriate level to allow faster access to current content. That's how the system was designed to allow access to current content without the same forced timesink to reach the same goal. 4.1 gave us subpar equipment at 353 but allowed non raiders to fill slots we got screwed out of (again: Shoulders, Head, Ranged, and Strength weapons) to improve. 4.2 gave access to 365 gear ahead of 359 normal T11 and below normal T12 to improve and ease gearing into current tier and clear previous tier. 4.3 gave 378 gear roughly equal to normal Firelands gear and behind normal Dragon Soul gear to again ease gearing into current tier.

    Quote Originally Posted by kittycovox View Post
    so he wants raid gear without raiding or what? i dont get the point...
    No, he wants all heroics to be fixed at the same 346 ilvl and require raiding through every tier to gear up. Basically he's thinly veiling the whole "HEY, I WANT TBC BACK!!" argument people are sick of

    Quote Originally Posted by Nestoras View Post
    Valor gear was introduced to soften the blow of RNG to people that were raiding, and ended up being the way for people to get raiding gear WITHOUT raiding!
    Valor gear was introduced to get tier out of the loot pool and allow different/better drops in the RNG. How many raid bosses have you killed that you throw your hands up in rage because that same pair of leather caster boots dropped instead of something you need? Now add a jackload of tier slot tokens to that same loot pool and take a guess at your odds of seeing what you want dropped as opposed to another tier token no one needs from the same boss. Heads and shoulders were removed from vendors to prevent 4-piece bonuses being bought, but that actually hurt the non-raiders because of the extremely low number of options for those slots. Other slots suffered too. I remember a healer excited to no end because my Archeology was capped and I could spawn the boss in Cache of Madness for him to have a shot at an offhand item upgrade.
    Anyone else think Jaime Lannister only has the Kingslayer title because he was just too lazy to kill the king on heroic mode?

  9. #69
    Quote Originally Posted by mitbrandir View Post
    Yes. I hate it that people who dont put effort in the game can get the same gear that i could.
    Use less effort? Why is it taking you more? You made the choice to get it before the 5-mans came out....which gives you a clear advantage over the people who need to do the 5 mans. You can just jump into the next tier. Them not so much.
    "I just wanted them to hand us our award! But they were just talk!, talk!, talk!......" - Wrathion

  10. #70
    Pandaren Monk Velshin's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Boogieknight View Post
    Even if the new dungeons didn't drop 378 there's no reason to ever run Firelands when Dragon Soul drops higher item level unless you want achievements or you're one of the 7 casters who hasn't gotten the legendary finished. As long as the system is in place for one tier to completely replace the previous then the underlying new heroics need to be upped by an appropriate level to allow faster access to current content. That's how the system was designed to allow access to current content without the same forced timesink to reach the same goal. 4.1 gave us subpar equipment at 353 but allowed non raiders to fill slots we got screwed out of (again: Shoulders, Head, Ranged, and Strength weapons) to improve. 4.2 gave access to 365 gear ahead of 359 normal T11 and below normal T12 to improve and ease gearing into current tier and clear previous tier. 4.3 gave 378 gear roughly equal to normal Firelands gear and behind normal Dragon Soul gear to again ease gearing into current tier.


    No, he wants all heroics to be fixed at the same 346 ilvl and require raiding through every tier to gear up. Basically he's thinly veiling the whole "HEY, I WANT TBC BACK!!" argument people are sick of


    Valor gear was introduced to get tier out of the loot pool and allow different/better drops in the RNG. How many raid bosses have you killed that you throw your hands up in rage because that same pair of leather caster boots dropped instead of something you need? Now add a jackload of tier slot tokens to that same loot pool and take a guess at your odds of seeing what you want dropped as opposed to another tier token no one needs from the same boss. Heads and shoulders were removed from vendors to prevent 4-piece bonuses being bought, but that actually hurt the non-raiders because of the extremely low number of options for those slots. Other slots suffered too. I remember a healer excited to no end because my Archeology was capped and I could spawn the boss in Cache of Madness for him to have a shot at an offhand item upgrade.
    Again I never said I want TBC exactly back as you comment above because we will still have LFR and valor points random epic I can't believe some people still misunderstanding.

  11. #71
    Quote Originally Posted by Velshin View Post
    Hey everyone just wanna hear about your opinions of this matter, do you think it will be a good idea to make all new 5 man dungeons loot equels even if some of them released after the first tier raid content?
    Theres no need.

    Blizzards CURRENT system appears to be working well.

    They have three 5 mans which are fairly easy, quick and interesting to run through, and which progress the story.
    The 5 mans provide loot equal in iLevel to the previous raid teir, and so provides a convenient mechanism by which players can gear up to the minimum level needed for the LFR system.
    The LFR systems a suitable introduction to raiding, and allows those without the time to see the content and gear up, using gear thats only slightly better that the 5 man system.
    Normals and heroics provide much better gear at a corresponding increase in encounter difficulty.

    The current system isn't perfect but it seems to work well. The big issues are encounter design - the EOT dungeon run for example should allow you to choose which two bosses to kill first - as well as loot issues (the "Need on everything you can even if you don't need it" culture) and the ever present question as to whetehr one raid with 8 bosses is enough.

    As to whether the loot of previous tiers should be updated - keeping old content viable by having decent gear as a reward is an idea. But it wouldn't really require the entire lootable to be updated. Perhaps just a chance of an addition to the end boss loot table, akin to the system used in TBC.

    EJL
    Last edited by Talen; 2012-03-04 at 08:41 AM.

  12. #72
    Mechagnome Boogieknight's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Velshin View Post
    Again I never said I want TBC exactly back as you comment above because we will still have LFR and valor points random epic I can't believe some people still misunderstanding.
    No, we do understand. You aren't understanding what you're saying because what you want is just that. It's forced gating with a different mechanism.

    Let's say that you get what you want, all heroics are 346 ilvl and we have LFR present for all tiers and new heroics will only drop 346.

    T11 LFR would have maybe a 340ilvl requirement and drop 353 gear below normal 359 so that it would be fair to you to not be as good as normals. You'd have to run repetitive dungeon runs to get that 340 ilvl and get in. In your example maybe you could buy some kind of badge gear and assist this along. Once you get that point you could run an LFR and start gearing up for the next raid.

    Assuming valor gear isn't higher than LFR or normals the best you could have would be a 353-359 ilvl or slightly higher if you did manage to get into some kind of normals. When T12 comes out and drops 378, what ilvl do you drop in LFR and where do you set the ilvl requirement for entry since your only source of equipment to get into T12 LFR is T11 LFR, valor, and any possible normals you may have been able to get in to.

    Same issue at T13. You effectively take the TBC gating of requiring you run one raid over and over and over until you're geared to beat the next raid so you can run it over and over and over so you can beat the next one and run it over and over and over and you turn it into running LFR over and over and over so you queue for the next LFR over and over and over so you can queue for the next LFR over and over and over.

    It's identical, quit deluding yourself into thinking this is some novel idea to keep gear away from people you don't deem worthy of acquiring it. Every addition of heroics will drop a higher ilvl proportionate to the entry level requirements of the current raid otherwise everything reverts back to TBC mechanics and it just isn't going to happen. If you have issues with the loot drops in new heroics you can pass everything and just use only your raid gear and come back and tell us how that works for you with new toons, or being a new player, or being that guy that doesn't get into the raid groups and gets left behind because they all move on to the next raid while you're not geared.

    Regardless of what you come up with people will still use PvP gear to cheat the ilvl making it pointless to fix heroic ilvl at one ilvl at all unless PvP gear has a significantly lower ilvl to never even be applicable for the initial LFR.
    Anyone else think Jaime Lannister only has the Kingslayer title because he was just too lazy to kill the king on heroic mode?

  13. #73
    The problem with people not going to the previous raiding tier isn't solely to do with gear from HoT hcs, it's also the quality of the previous content. Firelands wasn't too bad, but let's go back to 4.2... would you like to go tier 11 content? I wouldn't. I despised Naxx and very rarely went back there after Ulduar was released.

    This wasn't a huge problem in TBC. Granted, when you had finally accessed BT it felt like a bit of a ballache and chore to go back to SSC and TK to get new recruits attuned to MH and BT, but the content wasn't bad - Tier 5 was incredible. Likewise, I ran Kara every week for fun even during Sunwell progress. Wrath was somewhat similar in that I was happy to go do Ulduar when ToGC was current content, and I didn't mind a quick ToGC raid when ICC was current content.

    Firelands is a bit of a grind, I just hate the mechanic of clearing so much trash to get Shannox to spawn. And apart from Rag, none of the bosses are particularly fun which is a nuisance since you have to clear them all to get to Rag.

    I still like the idea of attunements. Personally I think attunements should return, but be somehow made account wide - at least for normal raids, LFR can be exempt from it, and just require one player in the raid to be attuned (like with Malygos and the focusing iris, and how you require one player to activate heroic mode). It's not asking that much if you still allow 378 loot from the new heroics and you consider the FL nerf.

    But yes, I don't like how previous raid content becomes obsolete.

    Edit: They can fix this in the future through LFR with future dungeons. As long as you have LFR and they possibly lift the loot restriction per week on previous tier content in LFR, then they don't necessarily have to introduce 5 mans with high ilevel rewards.
    Last edited by flashur; 2012-03-04 at 11:08 AM.

  14. #74
    Pandaren Monk Velshin's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Boogieknight View Post
    No, we do understand. You aren't understanding what you're saying because what you want is just that. It's forced gating with a different mechanism.

    Let's say that you get what you want, all heroics are 346 ilvl and we have LFR present for all tiers and new heroics will only drop 346.

    T11 LFR would have maybe a 340ilvl requirement and drop 353 gear below normal 359 so that it would be fair to you to not be as good as normals. You'd have to run repetitive dungeon runs to get that 340 ilvl and get in. In your example maybe you could buy some kind of badge gear and assist this along. Once you get that point you could run an LFR and start gearing up for the next raid.

    Assuming valor gear isn't higher than LFR or normals the best you could have would be a 353-359 ilvl or slightly higher if you did manage to get into some kind of normals. When T12 comes out and drops 378, what ilvl do you drop in LFR and where do you set the ilvl requirement for entry since your only source of equipment to get into T12 LFR is T11 LFR, valor, and any possible normals you may have been able to get in to.

    Same issue at T13. You effectively take the TBC gating of requiring you run one raid over and over and over until you're geared to beat the next raid so you can run it over and over and over so you can beat the next one and run it over and over and over and you turn it into running LFR over and over and over so you queue for the next LFR over and over and over so you can queue for the next LFR over and over and over.

    It's identical, quit deluding yourself into thinking this is some novel idea to keep gear away from people you don't deem worthy of acquiring it. Every addition of heroics will drop a higher ilvl proportionate to the entry level requirements of the current raid otherwise everything reverts back to TBC mechanics and it just isn't going to happen. If you have issues with the loot drops in new heroics you can pass everything and just use only your raid gear and come back and tell us how that works for you with new toons, or being a new player, or being that guy that doesn't get into the raid groups and gets left behind because they all move on to the next raid while you're not geared.

    Regardless of what you come up with people will still use PvP gear to cheat the ilvl making it pointless to fix heroic ilvl at one ilvl at all unless PvP gear has a significantly lower ilvl to never even be applicable for the initial LFR.
    Again one more time you misunderstand my way of thinking about this I will say it one more time I have nothing against casuals or anyone who get gears same lvl as I do either I get it from raid or they get it from 5 man heroics with the same item lvl. I don't treat them as unworthy just because they didn't experience the same thing I did this is just immature and childish way of thinking. I'm casual myself I'm not some kind of elitlist who get jealous of some players who get the same item lvl gears as me in 5 man heroics instead of raids that is not my point I will say it in caps so you can see it : I HAVE NOTHING AGAINST CASUAL PLAYERS BECAUSE I'M ONE OF THEM.... now that we are clear with that my point was to make old raids viable for longer period of time than just one patch content as it's now. By doing that the lifespan of the raid content will be longer and people will be busy progressing still even to this day instead of just clearing the latest raid content patch in less than 1 month then get bored of not enough content or raiding to do it's just a method to keep people busy while new patch inc but yeah this is just my opinion of this matter ofc I don't expect everyone agree with me.

    To answer your question how would I get gears up my alt if this system get on? simple answer will be: craftable items, valor points and justice points epics will be more than enough to let me enter LFR and start farming because 5 man heroics still get you valor points so this is not a problem at all.
    Last edited by Velshin; 2012-03-04 at 11:10 AM.

  15. #75
    Quote Originally Posted by mitbrandir View Post
    Yes. I hate it that people who dont put effort in the game can get the same gear that i could.
    haha dude you have some serious issues. 1) it´s a game 2)who cares what others are doing as long as you have fun 3) it´s not the same gear 4)there are people who play less than you and are more skilled/successful

  16. #76
    Stood in the Fire Korbany's Avatar
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    I think the problem of the previous tier of raid becoming obsolete could be solved in another way.

    I would prefer for the previous tier of raids to be turned into 5 man dungeons, both heroic and normal, when a new raiding tier is released. That way the content remains 'current', albeit for a different audience and a lot more players will get to see the content. The dungeon should still drop the same level of loot with the exception of tier sets, to enable players to progress on to the new tier of raid.

    As for the issue of previous tier epics or their equivalent being given to non raiders when a new raid tier is introduced, well this has effectively been done since the end of vanilla wow when everybody got free pvp epics that were at least as good as tier two raiding gear.

  17. #77
    There simply remains the issue of older tiers becoming irrelevant very fast though. And I'm not a fan of that.

    I joined WoW again when Cataclysm was about to make 4.3 go live. The sad part is that I really enjoy the Old God themes and Twilight's Hammer stuff. I've yet to see Bastion of Twilight. I'd love to see the inside of that place and all it has to offer.

    I've also not seen Firelands or BWD. All I've to do everytime I hit L85 is Dragon Soul ... and I turn out to spend 4 out of 7 nights just twiddling my thumbs not knowing what to do because I'm a very PvE-focussed person. It's almost a miracle that I leveled 5 characters to 85 in about 2-3 months time because before I took my break from WoW I really didn't see the point in having so much alts...

    It feels kinda crappy to join an expansion halfway through with the current system. Maybe if they had released 2 different raiddungeons instead of "just" 8 raidbosses in DS it would've been different, but they didn't and I sort of feel that they won't release double-raids per patch anymore, or more than 6-8 bosses per raid, unless it's the launch of an expansion. It almost feels like it's NOT worth it to join a WoW expansion unless you've been part of it since launch with the current system, since you're missing out on so much content, while being forced into the last tier. I highly preferred the TBC approach... that long arduous path you had to take to gear up your new L70 character to being end-game worthy actually gave a sense of achievement. Karazhan, Gruul, SSC, TK and finally the glory of Hyjal and Black Temple and if you're good even Sunwell... which is what I did with my "for fun" retribution paladin alt in TBC, which only dinged 70 after BT was released. Sure there was a long time between content patches, but there was no lack of content, because your alts were expected to start from Karazhan and work their way up. (Although Magister's Terrace kinda threw a wrench into that as well... but not as badly... as the full-last tier epic rewards from 5mans and VP or JP do nowadays.)
    ♦ Scepticist ♦ Critic ♦ INTJ

  18. #78
    The fundamental problem with your idea is that it does not fit with blizzards content release strategy. If they released all of the content in an xpack at once that would be viable, but they don't. They release everything in tiered phases. If they released a bunch of new dungeons that only released gear equal to bwd, people as a whole would not play those dungeons because there is no useful benefit to running. Its more useless pugging and putting up with slightly retarded folks for the same junk you already have. Now... what would make old content replayable would be a challenge mode for raids. Add a teleport system that puts your raid right at the challenge boss of the week(day even?). Everyone gets a certain gear level decided by blizzard. Let the bosses drop random items for show. Transmog items, stuff like that. Make the quest that sends you in there reward you 1 token of some sort, gain 3 tokens to buy a mid tier glove, or 4 tokens for legs or chest. Make one challenge boss of the week that offers something great for doing it AND completing it in a time frame without wiping. Top 5 times every week gets a temporary title and a week long lasting tabbard that makes them sparkle or appear to be on fire or something cool. Week duration. It'd be an awesome, competitive, fun way to experience small chunks of outdated content. It'd probably take a small team of developers constantly developing the next weeks fight, but still. awesome.
    Quite often, the difference between an idiot and a genius is simply a matter of success rate.

  19. #79
    Field Marshal Aquaux's Avatar
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    I think the gear really depends on your spec....compare old loot tables with the newer ones. new curren tier bosses have a chance to drop like 12 pieces max...old world bosses could drop up to 20 different things....if you are really min/maxing your toon, the 5 man dungeons provide nice filler pieces. I was sooo sick of being a druid tank and having every piece of firelands gear have haste on it...like i said, the new 5 mans provide nice filler pieces. They are doing their job.

  20. #80
    Blademaster Nashud's Avatar
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    Allot of ppl have skipped cata raids becouse they required good organised groups (you would be surprised of how many ppl are casual players that didnt raid at all).
    But when raid finder came out for ds the number of ppl clearing it and gearing up got incredibly high. In the future there will be raid finders for new raids, so ppl wont miss the progression.
    Ass for dungeon loot, i think it is very balanced because it to makes you able to fill the gap in your gear needed to play new content especially if you level an alt, and you want to play latest content (because you saw, and played old content with your main).

    The only thing i don't like is old dungeons from the beginning of the expnasion are now obsolete (when i dinged with new char i jumped into 378hc right away because i had crafted and boe gear as soon as i dinged) It kinda sux to do only 3 new dungeons all the time (they get boring)

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