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  1. #1301
    I am Murloc! rhorle's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by SirRobin View Post
    Possibly punching further holes in his dubious claims. I've seen in the videos where smilies hang over the buildings. I have yet to see a video showing smilies hang over the sims. Now there are some vids showing sims with indicators, criminal if I recall correctly, over them but that's it. So are they just lying again or is nothing, sims-wise, actually tracked and statuses maybe just randomly assigned when they are drawn coming out of a building?
    Think of sims like Delivery trucks. They contain things like wealth, happiness, crime, health etc. Residential, Commercial, and Industrial are the storage containers and that is where the "agents" pick up and store their information. You can click on an individual Sim and see an indicator for their happiness (or wealth if they are heading to a store). You can also jump to where they came from.

    You don't need persistent appearances, names, skin tone, homes, or work places to still have complex and decent AI. They track the things that matter like wealth and happiness. By doing this and the method of job and home placement it ensures that you won't get stuck with one building being highly happy with everything else being supremely poor. It distributes the wealth and happiness evenly within the three class brackets. And any buildings that are unhappy will likely only contain the sims carrying the "unhappy data". Which is why somethings can persist in a unhappy state.

    Sim City isn't about simulating the life of each individual sim but about simulating the life of each class. You can just follow/track an individual Sim within that bracket.
    "Man is his own star. His acts are his angels, good or ill, While his fatal shadows walk silently beside him."-Rhyme of the Primeval Paradine AFC 54
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  2. #1302
    The Sims in the game are persistent in many respects. They go from a home to a workplace or to a shop and back each day. Their happiness, money, sickness, education level, etc. are also persistent and are carried around the city with each Sim as the simulation unfolds
    What does he even say here? Let's face it. A home is a random. If you call the variable that is involved in that specific random a persistent element, then the sims in sim city screwing up on their pathing, is a persistent element of the game, which would definitely make the game worse and they just admitted it.

    What does he mean by "and are carried around the city with each sim as the simulation unfolds". It doesn't sound like each sim is a unique value or contains a unique ID for sickness or happiness etc. It sounds more like <total> happiness is divided by <count> of sims over interval <time> and it's able to carry a part of that <total> around as if it's part of that sim for a <time>. In other words, they're trying to downplay the level of stupidity that the sims have, by formulating sentences that are half-truths. The way they describe it, literally taken, is probably true, but they're counting on interpretation of the "stupid", assuming that they will go ahead and fill in the blanks that these excuses have.

    It keeps getting worse. EA destroyed all the games from my youth, so far. I can't wait to see what's next. I stopped caring.

    And rhorle, take your corporate bullshit elsewhere, please. You were missing for three pages, the three pages where your precious EA/Maxis and Sim City got dissected and exposed for what it really is, but as soon as a statement from EA pops up, you're back defending that statement. People that know games have been through it now, your breath is wasted. You failed to convince this crowd. I hope you have job security.

    Quote Originally Posted by rhorle View Post
    It isn't all a dysfunctional mess. The only real AI problem is traffic and the rest just does things differently then people want them to behave. That doesn't make them simple or dumb. You don't need to track permanent jobs or homes in order to have advanced AI.

    Except for the fact that the sims pathing seems to affect statistics such as 85% of your population being without a job, even though there's plenty of jobs. And yes, I said such as.

    I wholeheartedly agree with you that graphical simulations aren't important, but these specific simulations affects DATA. and in a simulation, DATA is the most important part of the equation and they FAILED. Get over it, accept it, deal with it, stop sticking your head in the sand.
    Last edited by Vespian; 2013-03-16 at 12:23 AM.

  3. #1303
    Moderator Remilia's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by kivipää View Post
    Nice. We all know this would be easy to make, but there's an additional detail; he has managed to ignore city limits. That completely eliminates the biggest obstacle for making a properly functional offline mode; if one city can hold everything it needs, there's no need for city interaction nor great works. Region play ceases to be a nigh mandatory part of the game. Now offline mode is literally just a local saving away
    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Bmce9oIxJag
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  4. #1304
    I am Murloc! rhorle's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by kivipää View Post
    FYI, it was propably better too. Once all the DRM bullshit is dealt with, you'd still ahve to deal with the fact that the "advanced simulation ai" is a dysfunctional mess.
    It isn't all a dysfunctional mess. The only real AI problem is traffic and the rest just does things differently then people want them to behave. That doesn't make them simple or dumb. You don't need to track permanent jobs or homes in order to have advanced AI.

    ---------- Post added 2013-03-15 at 08:21 PM ----------

    Quote Originally Posted by Vespian View Post
    What does he mean by "and are carried around the city with each sim as the simulation unfolds". It doesn't sound like each sim is a unique value or contains a unique ID for sickness or happiness etc.
    Each Sim is a unique agent carrying data to the sinks in the city. They pickup data from their home and deliver it to the other sinks (Work, Store, School, Park etc). Each Sim is unique and each one carries only the data it picked up from one of the sinks. Their name, appearance, job and home are all not remembered by the system. It doesn't have to be. Each Sim will go back and forth between sinks carrying the data that is saved.

    That transferring of data is what determines the wealth, happiness etc of the individual sinks. The other information would be cool to track but it is just a "fluff" cosmetic that doesn't provide anything to the simulation. You can already jump to the place a Sim came from and see the status of that sink.
    "Man is his own star. His acts are his angels, good or ill, While his fatal shadows walk silently beside him."-Rhyme of the Primeval Paradine AFC 54
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  5. #1305
    Quote Originally Posted by rhorle View Post
    It isn't all a dysfunctional mess. The only real AI problem is traffic and the rest just does things differently then people want them to behave. That doesn't make them simple or dumb. You don't need to track permanent jobs or homes in order to have advanced AI.

    ---------- Post added 2013-03-15 at 08:21 PM ----------



    Each Sim is a unique agent carrying data to the sinks in the city. They pickup data from their home and deliver it to the other sinks (Work, Store, School, Park etc). Each Sim is unique and each one carries only the data it picked up from one of the sinks. Their name, appearance, job and home are all not remembered by the system. It doesn't have to be. Each Sim will go back and forth between sinks carrying the data that is saved.

    That transferring of data is what determines the wealth, happiness etc of the individual sinks. The other information would be cool to track but it is just a "fluff" cosmetic that doesn't provide anything to the simulation. You can already jump to the place a Sim came from and see the status of that sink.
    Rhorle, you're lucky I'm drunk right now, because I'm generally a more happy person when I am. Stop the bullshit.







    ...


    It was a rhetorical question. Everyone in this forum knows he's talking out of his ass. The points he mentions are the most important parts that do need to be remembered as properties of a sim, otherwise you get the destructive gameplay that's happening all around us. Read the reviews. Enough said, I'm off to bed.

  6. #1306
    I am Murloc! rhorle's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Vespian View Post
    It was a rhetorical question. Everyone in this forum knows he's talking out of his ass. The points he mentions are the most important parts that do need to be remembered as properties of a sim, otherwise you get the destructive gameplay that's happening all around us. Read the reviews. Enough said, I'm off to bed.
    What part of the game is destructive game play because clothing, name, gender, skin tone, home, and job aren't persistent? Clothing, name, gender, and skin tone don't interact at all with the game play. Having a permanent job or home doesn't cause the system to self destruct. Because the individual sims are Agents that deliver data to Sinks.

    The sinks hold the permanent data. They do everything that the same data on an individual Sim would do without require the game to track each individual Sim. The game play isn't any more or less destructive.
    "Man is his own star. His acts are his angels, good or ill, While his fatal shadows walk silently beside him."-Rhyme of the Primeval Paradine AFC 54
    You know a community is bad when moderators lock a thread because "...this isnt the place to talk about it either seeing as it will get trolled..."

  7. #1307
    Quote Originally Posted by rhorle View Post
    What part of the game is destructive game play because clothing, name, gender, skin tone, home, and job aren't persistent? Clothing, name, gender, and skin tone don't interact at all with the game play. Having a permanent job or home doesn't cause the system to self destruct. Because the individual sims are Agents that deliver data to Sinks.

    The sinks hold the permanent data. They do everything that the same data on an individual Sim would do without require the game to track each individual Sim. The game play isn't any more or less destructive.
    Read the reviews. Now seriously, in bed.

  8. #1308
    I am Murloc! SirRobin's Avatar
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    Hehe...
    Quote Originally Posted by rhorle View Post
    Think of sims like Delivery trucks. They contain things like wealth, happiness, crime, health etc. Residential, Commercial, and Industrial are the storage containers and that is where the "agents" pick up and store their information. You can click on an individual Sim and see an indicator for their happiness (or wealth if they are heading to a store). You can also jump to where they came from.

    You don't need persistent appearances, names, skin tone, homes, or work places to still have complex and decent AI. They track the things that matter like wealth and happiness. By doing this and the method of job and home placement it ensures that you won't get stuck with one building being highly happy with everything else being supremely poor. It distributes the wealth and happiness evenly within the three class brackets. And any buildings that are unhappy will likely only contain the sims carrying the "unhappy data". Which is why somethings can persist in a unhappy state.

    Sim City isn't about simulating the life of each individual sim but about simulating the life of each class. You can just follow/track an individual Sim within that bracket.
    It has already been discovered that sims don't care about the wealth or happiness of the home they go to. They just go to the closest home. So even if this dumbed down shallow reboot was about simulating the life of each class? It certainly isn't doing it very well.

    One of the problems with your attempted analogy is that delivery trucks exist even when they are not delivering something. "Sims," apparently, do not. If they existed then the persistent parts Stone claims they have, should affect the homes they end up in. Delivery trucks go back to "their" depot. All SimCity appears to care about is whether or not enough sims reach a home. Once enough sims reach a home to fill its "bucket." The rest overflow to the next closest bucket.

    Since some will be happy and some won't, unhappy sims filling a bucket should make the bucket unhappy. Uneducated sims filling a home should make the building uneducated. I have yet to see or hear a single example of this actually happening. If the home, bucket, does not care about the persistent state of the sims filling it. Then the sims' "persistent" state doesn't actually matter. If it doesn't actually matter, then there is even less indication that "complex" AI is involved.

    You don't actually need persistence to have a good AI. However, if you are going to have persistence? Then it should impact its environment. Like the radiation mentioned in the other thread. As shown above the sims' persistence doesn't seem to. Stone may not be lying. The game may actually track each sim's "happiness" and "wealth." Unfortunately there appears to be little reason for it too, beyond providing some eye-candy. These sims are only beans for the homes' bags.

    So Stone's claims, even if accurate, further highlights just how lazy they were, making this dumbed down shallow reboot. Then to try to justify it with some claim about having more sims? After GetFudgedPopulation had already been discovered?

    So think of sims like delivery trucks that once they make their delivery? Park in the nearest parking lot, and are abandoned.
    Last edited by SirRobin; 2013-03-16 at 03:18 AM. Reason: Should have said homes instead of just buildings.
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  9. #1309
    I am Murloc! rhorle's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by SirRobin View Post
    It has already been discovered that sims don't care about the wealth or happiness of the home they go to. They just go to the closest home. So even if this dumbed down shallow reboot was about simulating the life of each class? It certainly isn't doing it very well.
    Right because they are agents. They go from point A to point B carrying data. They don't need to go to the same place in order to do that job. The data they carry can be applied to any place they go. When they arrive home they come home with "data". That data is then applied to what ever rules exist to produce data for that sink. When they leave they leave with information regarding that sink and apply it towards their new sink and its rules.

    You don't need permanent homes and jobs in order to apply data to rules. Nothing would be changed about the game if Sim A always went to Job A and house A. The only difference is that you would be able to track a Sim taking the same route. Every Sim is an agent that carries data.


    Since some will be happy and some won't, unhappy sims filling a bucket should make the bucket unhappy. Uneducated sims filling a home should make the building uneducated. I have yet to see or hear a single example of this actually happening. If the home, bucket, does not care about the persistent state of the sims filling it. Then the sims' "persistent" state doesn't actually matter. If it doesn't actually matter, then there is even less indication that "complex" AI is involved.
    Not if those things are tracked by the Sink as well. When agents are inside a sink they cease to exist. Just because any Sim can fill any sink doesn't mean the Data they carry isn't modified by the rules of the Sink. Also nothing indicates that low wealth goes to high wealth jobs and the like. Because you won't have high wealth shops with shoppers just because there is no where else for low wealth people to shop.


    So Stone's claims, even if accurate, further highlights just how lazy they were, making this dumbed down shallow reboot. Then to try to justify it with some claim about having more sims? After GetFudgedPopulation had already been discovered?
    You keep using words like dumb and lazy yet haven't shown anything to indicate that the game's simulations are in fact dumb or lazy. Just because it isn't done the way you would do it doesn't make it dumb or lazy. It just makes it different. The Simulations of Sim City certainly aren't dumb just because there are no fixed homes or jobs. How would having them make the game smarter? The game would behave the exact same way except you could follow a sim doing the same actions every day/hour.

    How is that magically smarter? The agent would perform the same exact way. The simulation would perform the exact same way.

    ---------- Post added 2013-03-16 at 12:06 AM ----------

    Quote Originally Posted by Vespian View Post
    Read the reviews. Now seriously, in bed.
    I've read reviews and they don't blame the problems on not tracking gender, appearance, names, place of employment, or place of residence. That is why I am asking you because you are stating those things not being tracked are the cause of the destructive game play. Why can't you just explain and backup the statements you make?
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  10. #1310
    I am Murloc! SirRobin's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by rhorle View Post
    Right because they are agents. They go from point A to point B carrying data. They don't need to go to the same place in order to do that job. The data they carry can be applied to any place they go. When they arrive home they come home with "data". That data is then applied to what ever rules exist to produce data for that sink. When they leave they leave with information regarding that sink and apply it towards their new sink and its rules.

    You don't need permanent homes and jobs in order to apply data to rules. Nothing would be changed about the game if Sim A always went to Job A and house A. The only difference is that you would be able to track a Sim taking the same route. Every Sim is an agent that carries data.
    If they went back to even the same "class" of homes, as you previously appear to have assumed. Their data would be more relevant. However since the bucket, or sink if you prefer, could have any happiness, wealth, education, or other category? Well, that is why the best design in this dumbed down shallow reboot is one long curving street without any intersections. Not just because of the pathetically simple pathing AI for traffic. But because of the pathetically simple pathing AI for all "Agents." Having the traffic actually start prioritizing streets will help, but the sims still only care about where they are going when they leave the house.

    Quote Originally Posted by rhorle View Post
    Not if those things are tracked by the Sink as well. When agents are inside a sink they cease to exist. Just because any Sim can fill any sink doesn't mean the Data they carry isn't modified by the rules of the Sink. Also nothing indicates that low wealth goes to high wealth jobs and the like. Because you won't have high wealth shops with shoppers just because there is no where else for low wealth people to shop.
    Now of course a sim doesn't "have" to go back to the same bucket or even a similar category of bucket. It doesn't have to actually go to a particular bucket in the first place. Since its all code after all. However, EA Maxis decided for it to work that way, just half the time. They only gave the sims half a brain. More indications of laziness on their part.

    Quote Originally Posted by rhorle View Post
    You keep using words like dumb and lazy yet haven't shown anything to indicate that the game's simulations are in fact dumb or lazy. Just because it isn't done the way you would do it doesn't make it dumb or lazy. It just makes it different. The Simulations of Sim City certainly aren't dumb just because there are no fixed homes or jobs. How would having them make the game smarter? The game would behave the exact same way except you could follow a sim doing the same actions every day/hour.

    How is that magically smarter? The agent would perform the same exact way. The simulation would perform the exact same way.
    So... You just weren't reading the rest of those posts? The greatest evidence of it is the game itself. Just in this post with the sims not caring where they go home to. Just as the most efficient design in this dumbed down shallow reboot is a long curvy road with no intersections. No actual sewers, plumbing, subways, water table doesn't replenish, farms, shortest distance AI, etc, etc, etc... Do you keep forgeting about GetFudgedPopulation or do you just keep choosing to ignore it?

    Compared to previous SimCity games, this reboot is significantly dumbed down. Just as its smaller plot size and more limited options make it a shallower game than its predecessors.

    As far as the smarter comment... If the sims at least cared about going back to the same categories of homes as them, it would make the evening traffic back to the residential zones more similar to the morning traffic out of them. Again, prioritizing roads will help but its still not going to change the fact that Stone decided the sims only needed half a brain.
    Last edited by SirRobin; 2013-03-16 at 04:54 AM.
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  11. #1311
    Moderator Remilia's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by rhorle View Post
    How is that magically smarter? The agent would perform the same exact way. The simulation would perform the exact same way.
    A decent sim in this game should in itself, if done properly, would have just the minimum of these few objects / vars shoved into their class object.

    1. Class (which they supposedly have)
    2. Job / destination / whatever.
    3. Home.
    4. Person's happiness / sadness / criminal. (which supposedly have).

    Having a class would set up to be consistent.
    Job would make pathing a lot less of a clusterfuck. A preset job would have it's own pathing, this pathing would work so the AI can consistently go from point A to point B, instead of 100 AIs going from point A to point B only to find out that another AI took that job. Thus adding another stupid cpu step.
    Home would make pathing a lot less of a clusterfuck. Same as job.
    Happiness to be consistence.

    This would make the statistics be consistent, predictable, less cluster fuck. This'll make city building more logical, less need to make some awkward city design just cause of how the AI was designed to achieve a specific goal.
    Unless the actual AIs have 0 bearing on the statistical data, the above will do a lot.

    Adding the above does increase RAM, but it does decrease CPU usage.

  12. #1312
    I am Murloc! rhorle's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by SirRobin View Post
    If they went back to even the same "class" of homes, as you previously appear to have assumed. Their data would be more relevant. However since the bucket, or sink if you prefer, could have any happiness, wealth, education, or other category? Well, that is why the best design in this dumbed down shallow reboot is one long curving street without any intersections. Not just because of the pathetically simple pathing AI for traffic. But because of the pathetically simple pathing AI for all "Agents." Having the traffic actually start prioritizing streets will help, but the sims still only care about where they are going when they leave the house.
    Your "best design" has nothing to do with when and where agents go. It has everything to do with the traffic rules which are being changed (talked about in http://www.simcity.com/en_US/blog/ar...mcity-update-8). Power, Water, and Sewage agents all function perfectly fine on any road way. Anything that sends data out does so through an agent. There doesn't need to be complex AI for water. It gets sent out along all roads and is used up as it is sent out. When it passes a place that needs water some is deducted from the agent. What is pathetic about that? Why does it need to be more complex to be a "smart or "not lazy"?

    The bucket or sink can't have any happiness, wealth, education or other category because low wealth shoppers won't go to high wealth shops. What else do you want sims to care about? They will always care about where they are going when they leave the house because there is no other reason for them to leave the house. It is a simulation and something needs to tell them to go somewhere. You are implying that Sim City is dumb because it doesn't have self aware AI.


    Now of course a sim doesn't "have" to go back to the same bucket or even a similar category of bucket. It doesn't have to actually go to a particular bucket in the first place. Since its all code after all. However, EA Maxis decided for it to work that way, just half the time. They only gave the sims half a brain. More indications of laziness on their part.
    It isn't laziness if the performance suffers because of it when it offers no real game play value. Nor does it make the Sims any smarter in how they would go from point A to point B. Because you would still have them all leaving to work at the same time. All going in the same "groups" as they do. You would just have Sims taking the same exact route. By why is one system smarter if they both behave the same way? A Sim has a full brain just because you can always track it following the same route? Nothing changes when it does that because every other Sim would be following the same route causing traffic jams, mass rushes of transit, entrances etc.


    So... You just weren't reading the rest of those posts? The greatest evidence of it is the game itself. Just in this post with the sims not caring where they go home to. Just as the most efficient design in this dumbed down shallow reboot is a long curvy road with no intersections. No actual sewers, plumbing, subways, water table doesn't replenish, farms, shortest distance AI, etc, etc, etc... Do you keep forgeting about GetFudgedPopulation or do you just keep choosing to ignore it?
    They care where they go home to, they just don't care if they go home to Low wealth 347 or Low wealth 228. A low wealth resident will always go to low wealth. Water table slowly replenishes over time and it also fills back up with Sewage plopabbles. The Sewage pipe fills the water table back up with polluted water, and the Sewage treatment facility can fill it back up with clean water.

    So the game is dumb and shallow because it doesn't have farms or subways. Okay so we aren't going off of actual mechanics now but because it doesn't have features you wanted or liked. A subway wouldn't add any compelling game play nor would a farm. The Bus system works much like a subway would anyways.

    I'm not talking about any fudged population because it is irrelevant. Why does it matter if they use an equation to determine population. It is a little thing that no one would really care about.

    Just as its smaller plot size and more limited options make it a shallower game than its predecessors.
    Not being able to do everything in one city is hardly shallower. It makes you have to think, plan, and plan out the region. It would be shallow game play if you could do everything in one city or terraform however you wanted. Because it is a game and it requires you to over come challenge and obstacles while still meeting whatever goals you want.

    As far as the smarter comment... If the sims at least cared about going back to the same categories of homes as them, it would make the evening traffic back to the residential zones more similar to the morning traffic out of them. Again, prioritizing roads will help but its still not going to change the fact that Stone decided the sims only needed half a brain.
    They do care.

    ---------- Post added 2013-03-16 at 01:40 AM ----------

    Quote Originally Posted by Remilia View Post
    1. Class (which they supposedly have)
    2. Job / destination / whatever.
    3. Home.
    4. Person's happiness / sadness / criminal. (which supposedly have).
    And they do track all of those. Class is persistent with every Sim. Its why Industry can complain about not having quality mangers yet not complain about a lack of workers. Its why a High Wealth Shop will go out of business from not enough shoppers and Low Wealth Sims will complain about not enough shops at the same time.

    Jobs and Homes are tracked just not to the specific home. You don't need a Sim to always go to highrise A. The pathing problems would all be the same because you would still have the same amount of Sims going to and from the Same places.
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  13. #1313
    Moderator Remilia's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by rhorle View Post
    And they do track all of those. Class is persistent with every Sim. Its why Industry can complain about not having quality mangers yet not complain about a lack of workers. Its why a High Wealth Shop will go out of business from not enough shoppers and Low Wealth Sims will complain about not enough shops at the same time.

    Jobs and Homes are tracked just not to the specific home. You don't need a Sim to always go to highrise A. The pathing problems would all be the same because you would still have the same amount of Sims going to and from the Same places.
    Class, supposedly track, yet others say it doesn't seem to be so.

    Track home / job, but not specific... what?

    The pathing would be so much more efficient if you know which AI is to go where. The pathing problem would lessen. You don't need them to go like a sequential search, instead make them go like an array, and if you know anything about sequential search and an array, an array is a fuck ton faster.
    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Linear_search
    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Array_data_structure

    This is currently how it works.

    O = Unoccupied
    X = Occupied
    A = AI

    Have a set up of
    O
    O
    O
    O
    O
    O
    In a line.
    Now when they first go to it, it's like this.
    O < A A A A A A -- 6 Steps
    O
    O
    O
    O
    O
    ---
    X -- 7 steps
    O < A A A A A -- 5 steps
    O
    O
    O
    O
    ---
    X -- 7 Steps
    X -- 6 Steps
    O < A A A A
    O
    O
    O

    and it continues that way.
    Now... if they all know their assigned placing.

    O < A
    O < A
    O < A
    O < A
    O < A
    O < A

    Congratulations, you just eliminated ∑6 steps.
    They know where to go, they don't get congested in one area because they don't search all the closest.
    Less traffic problems... won't fix all of it, but it makes a gigantic improvement.
    Last edited by Remilia; 2013-03-16 at 07:00 AM.

  14. #1314
    I am Murloc! SirRobin's Avatar
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    I do enjoy the mental exercise these give but I'll be going to bed soon.

    Quote Originally Posted by rhorle View Post
    Your "best design" has nothing to do with when and where agents go. It has everything to do with the traffic rules which are being changed (talked about in http://www.simcity.com/en_US/blog/ar...mcity-update-8). Power, Water, and Sewage agents all function perfectly fine on any road way. Anything that sends data out does so through an agent. There doesn't need to be complex AI for water. It gets sent out along all roads and is used up as it is sent out. When it passes a place that needs water some is deducted from the agent. What is pathetic about that? Why does it need to be more complex to be a "smart or "not lazy"?

    The bucket or sink can't have any happiness, wealth, education or other category because low wealth shoppers won't go to high wealth shops. What else do you want sims to care about? They will always care about where they are going when they leave the house because there is no other reason for them to leave the house. It is a simulation and something needs to tell them to go somewhere. You are implying that Sim City is dumb because it doesn't have self aware AI.
    Yes it does. Correct me if I'm wrong but you can only zone for industrial, commercial, or residential. While you can encourage and influence, you cannot restrict zones to particular wealth or happiness categories.

    If that is true it directly impacts all "Agents" since the level of each building affects the amount of "Agents" it needs. Whether those agents are sewage, water, electricity, or sims. Multiple roads and intersections? Multiple directions those agents can go. Look at your sewage, water, or electricity maps in SimCity. None of them actually "stream." They all "pulse." Compare multiple roads and intersections to a single road when there are shortages.

    The one long curving road is far more efficient and it has more to do with all the agents' path finding instead of just traffic. The traffic is just the most blatantly obvious since it is the most visible.

    In the same vein, since the industrial, commercial, and residential zones do not have their population spread evenly. The single road is still far more efficient because herd behavior at the end and beginning of the day only has one direction to go. With multiple roads and intersections you can have herds in entirely different places between the morning and evening because the sims simply zerg the nearest residential zones.

    It shouldn't be a whole lot of work adding it since EA Maxis already did half of it.

    Quote Originally Posted by rhorle View Post
    It isn't laziness if the performance suffers because of it when it offers no real game play value. Nor does it make the Sims any smarter in how they would go from point A to point B. Because you would still have them all leaving to work at the same time. All going in the same "groups" as they do. You would just have Sims taking the same exact route. By why is one system smarter if they both behave the same way? A Sim has a full brain just because you can always track it following the same route? Nothing changes when it does that because every other Sim would be following the same route causing traffic jams, mass rushes of transit, entrances etc.
    Sims having a categorized destination when they "leave" the residential zones doesn't actually offer any "real" gameplay value either. To paraphrase Stone it was just an extra layer of micro that they felt was worth adding.

    It does make the Sims smarter because instead of one going from A1 to B1 in the morning and just B to A in the evening. They would now go from B1 to A1. Taking a similar route, adjusted for prioritization of course. Making the zerg more manageable. So, no, they wouldn't behave the same way. Unless you are still using the one long curvy road layout of course since that is the best way to manage the zerg currently.

    So, yes, the sims would be smarter. They still wouldn't have to go to the exact same house and job. Its already, partially, in the game. And you could more effectively build and plan your city. This is a city building game after all.

    Quote Originally Posted by rhorle View Post
    They care where they go home to, they just don't care if they go home to Low wealth 347 or Low wealth 228. A low wealth resident will always go to low wealth. Water table slowly replenishes over time and it also fills back up with Sewage plopabbles. The Sewage pipe fills the water table back up with polluted water, and the Sewage treatment facility can fill it back up with clean water.

    So the game is dumb and shallow because it doesn't have farms or subways. Okay so we aren't going off of actual mechanics now but because it doesn't have features you wanted or liked. A subway wouldn't add any compelling game play nor would a farm. The Bus system works much like a subway would anyways.

    I'm not talking about any fudged population because it is irrelevant. Why does it matter if they use an equation to determine population. It is a little thing that no one would really care about.
    Did you actually play any of the previous SimCity games? I'm asking because that will affect how much explaining I need to do.

    Here is a youtube of SimCity 4 if you really don't actually know.

    So you are back to assuming that sims care about the home's category again? If you don't trust the neogaff link then here it is on ea's own site. This dumbed down and shallow reboot is dumbed down and shallow for the reasons previously stated. and, again, this is only what's been found in the first week. Fudging your population numbers is "irrelevant" in a city building game? ... You know, I do enjoy shooting holes in your claims but sometimes you just make it too easy.

    Quote Originally Posted by rhorle View Post
    Not being able to do everything in one city is hardly shallower. It makes you have to think, plan, and plan out the region. It would be shallow game play if you could do everything in one city or terraform however you wanted. Because it is a game and it requires you to over come challenge and obstacles while still meeting whatever goals you want.
    Hehe... I was wondering how long till we got here again. So are you implying that taking away options adds more depth to a game?

    Quote Originally Posted by rhorle View Post
    They do care.
    And your proof is...
    Last edited by SirRobin; 2013-03-16 at 07:31 AM.
    Sir Robin, the Not-Quite-So-Brave-As-Sir-Lancelot.
    Who had nearly fought the Dragon of Angnor.
    Who had almost stood up to the vicious Chicken of Bristol.
    And who had personally wet himself, at the Battle of Badon Hill.

  15. #1315
    I am Murloc! rhorle's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by SirRobin View Post
    Yes it does. Correct me if I'm wrong but you can only zone for industrial, commercial, or residential. While you can encourage and influence, you cannot restrict zones to particular wealth or happiness categories.
    You can control the land value by placing things around your zones. Commercial and Residential are both a Happiness (density) and Land Value (class) zones. Industrial is based on Tech levels (Education). You certain can restrict certain zones to a particular wealth otherwise the entire basis of the game would fall apart. Because part of the game is managing your city to make it work. If you couldn't restrict residential to remaining within a certain land value then it would be impossible to maintain enough workers.


    The one long curving road is far more efficient and it has more to do with all the agents' path finding instead of just traffic. The traffic is just the most blatantly obvious since it is the most visible.
    Traffic is the only agent that gets "congested". Power, Water, Sewage won't get congested through to many things going down an intersection or road. It doesn't need to take a different path because there is nothing stopping it from being on one path. The only thing you could manage is the time it takes to get to a sink. But that isn't that relevant because power and water are only time sensitive when you lose those resources for some reason which will only happen if you rebuild, high demand, or disaster.

    The other agents that we don't see like "spread fire" or "fire alarm" are all pulsed. Same thing with "now hiring". They all pulse and don't really save time by going down one long path then they would going around corners and stuff. Its because those pulses are not limited and are a second or less apart.






    So you are back to assuming that sims care about the home's category again? If you don't trust the neogaff link then here it is on ea's own site. This dumbed down and shallow reboot is dumbed down and shallow for the reasons previously stated. and, again, this is only what's been found in the first week. Fudging your population numbers is "irrelevant" in a city building game? ... You know, I do enjoy shooting holes in your claims but sometimes you just make it too easy.
    You can link that forum all you want but it still doesn't show that Sims don't care about the class of a home. Commercial places don't accept any shopper. It has to be a shopper of the correct wealth. If a high wealth shopper goes out and can't find any stores to spend their money at they will go home and bring that unhappiness with them. They may go to the nearest home and fill it but they won't just go to the nearest high wealth home.

    You also don't need to put casinos directly at the entrance of your city to succeed. In one city I had two gambling houses right next to each other in the middle of the map with my commercial district at the entrance. My two casino's did fine and were producing 14k and 9k profit a day. I would have had more but I low tourism and was the single city in the region so couldn't draw from the region to fill them. I also had more low wealth gamblers then medium wealth gamblers.


    Hehe... I was wondering how long till we got here again. So are you implying that taking away options adds more depth to a game?
    Yes. Just because you can't do everything doesn't mean there is less depth to the game. It can create more depth then if you could do everything because you actually have to plan and think about the layout of your city rather then simply adding the needed things to X open space. The entire aspect of city specializations would be have no value if you could do everything in one city.

    And your proof is...
    Play the game. Or have you never played it? Create a city with two separated Low and Medium wealth zones. You can watch the low wealth sims (you know they came from low wealth because you can jump to the location they came from) and if they can't find a job in the Medium wealth shops they return home. But they don't just go to a medium wealth home. They will go to a Low Wealth home with an "opening".

    You will also see your low wealth shoppers never cross over to other wealth homes or shops. Though I'm sure you'll just say that it only indicates those shops and homes always had openings when the Sims exhibited that behavior.

    The only real change I'd like to see to the AI is similar to the traffic changes they made. I'd like to see a weighting system for certain jobs. Power for example should be filled first over a park. You won't really encounter it outside of sandbox mode because you don't have enough money to build big early. It was amusing to watch a Sim get fired from the sewage treatment plant, drive away then turn around to take the job at the sewage plant. And watch that cycle repeat because the plant had no power.

    Sims care where they go. They just don't have a specific home with in their wealth bracket. A low Sim will go to any open low house. They will go to almost any job because Low wealth sims are the "slaves" of the Sim world. They will tolerate almost anything and do almost anything. Of course if they are not "educated" they will blow up your nuke plant in revenge.

    I also created a T city with Low wealth at the end of the top of the T and Medium wealth on the opposite end. At the end of the work day I paused the game and deleted the section of the T connecting to the Low Wealth and built a long winding curvy road over water that connected eventually to the bottom of the T. It now resembled a T and D merged. The Sims returning home from work turned around and walked the long path to the low wealth section instead of turning down the Medium wealth road to fill some vacant spots in the medium wealth residential.

    If they always followed the shortest path and filled the first vacant anything they wouldn't have taken the long road home. Which amusingly enough would take them in-game weeks to walk.

    ---------- Post added 2013-03-16 at 09:46 AM ----------

    Quote Originally Posted by Remilia View Post
    Track home / job, but not specific... what?
    The wealth of a Sim is persistent. So a low wealth Sim will always go to a low wealth home. It tracks the homes and jobs but not in intimate detail. It doesn't care if you came from the Russel residence or the Chen residence as long as both are Low Wealth.

    Quote Originally Posted by Remilia View Post
    Congratulations, you just eliminated ∑6 steps.
    They know where to go, they don't get congested in one area because they don't search all the closest.
    Less traffic problems... won't fix all of it, but it makes a gigantic improvement.
    But you would still have congestion the first day. Because a place when it sends out a "now hiring" agent doesn't target anything. It just sends it around the city and it alerts Sims that are looking for a job. Those sims are then sent out as agents to the job. So the first time they would always "zerg". Then after that they would still get congested and everything because they all leave for work at the same time and would all be trying to get to work at the same time.

    You could also create more congestion in some spots through that method. You would just be shifting congestion problems that can easily be changed via the traffic weighting system they are implementing. Sims will now not always take the shortest route to a destination if less congested paths exist. They could also tweak the way the "Now Hiring" agents work to act smarter and not over book a job. I'm not sure the exact specifics but that is a far bigger issue then not tracking a permanent home or job.
    "Man is his own star. His acts are his angels, good or ill, While his fatal shadows walk silently beside him."-Rhyme of the Primeval Paradine AFC 54
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  16. #1316
    Here's a question concerning mines. I have an ore mine saying it has 0 months supply for a long time now. Do they ever run out? It hasn't stopped producing yet and it has been enough to supply my arcology construction with 2800 tons of metal having only 1 month from the beginning of the construction.

  17. #1317
    Quote Originally Posted by rhorle View Post
    The wealth of a Sim is persistent. So a low wealth Sim will always go to a low wealth home. It tracks the homes and jobs but not in intimate detail. It doesn't care if you came from the Russel residence or the Chen residence as long as both are Low Wealth.
    Except that's not true at all. If you have low wealth sim coming from job, he goes to the first empty house he can reach and if it happens to be high wealth house, the sim turns into high wealth citizen and then tries to go to high wealth job next day.
    Modern gaming apologist: I once tasted diarrhea so shit is fine.

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  18. #1318
    Quote Originally Posted by rhorle View Post
    The wealth of a Sim is persistent.
    From what we've seen, not an individual sim, no. The total number of sims of a given wealth value etc. are maintained as a data point, however the in-game representation of the sims share no purpose other than to give a visual representation of those data points. Not specific data points, but just the data points that exist. So if you have 20% low income and 80% high income, there is no permanence in which sims will go where if their paths overlap. They will simply continue to fill the, "20% of these sims are low income, 80% are high income. And which are which is irrelevant." Such that any simulation isn't actually occurring.

    redit: Also, more drama llama: http://www.rockpapershotgun.com/2013...pretty-wiggly/
    Last edited by Edge-; 2013-03-16 at 08:12 PM.

  19. #1319
    Warchief Vayjir's Avatar
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    SimCity Modder Tells Us Offline Regional Play Easily Done

    So yeah how long until EA gives up ?

  20. #1320
    The Lightbringer Rukh's Avatar
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    It's a bit sad at this point seeing people JUST NOW finally realizing EA are a bunch of shady lying assholes
    Still bitter.

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