[MoP Bear] Guardian Druid MoP Discussion Thread

[Myrrar]

Guardian Druid MoP Discussion Thread

This is where any general discussion about Guardian druid MoP changes will go. If you want to talk about general druid specifics please use the link to the appropriate thread. If there are any updates or changes I missed PM them to me.

General: http://www.mmo-champion.com/threads/...cussion-Thread
Balance: http://www.mmo-champion.com/threads/...cussion-Thread
Feral: http://www.mmo-champion.com/threads/...cussion-Thread
Resto: http://www.mmo-champion.com/threads/...cussion-Thread

General Changes:

• The relic slot is gone. Our relics are now useless, but it's no reason to fret-- all other classes are losing their relic and ranged weapon slots.
• The Feral Specialization has been split into two different specs, Guardian (for bear tanking) and Feral (for cat dps).

New Abilities:

General:

• Might of Ursoc, a survival cooldown that forces you into bear form. Shifting out of bear form will cancel the buff.
  

Guardian:

• Savage Defense is completley new. No longer our Mastery, it is an active avoidance cooldown.
• Our new Mastery is Mastery: Nature's Guardian, and increases our armor.

Other Important Ability Changes:

Removed abilities:

• Pulverize has been removed.
• Demoralizing Roar has been removed.
• Challenging Roar has been removed.

Guardian:

• Frenzied Regeneration have been reworked. It is now a very short cooldown heal that costs rage.
• Mangle no longer costs rage, instead, it generates 5 rage.
• Thrash, Lacerate, and Swipe no longer cost rage. Rage is for active mitigation and avoidance, rather than threat.
• Thrash, Lacerate, and Faerie Fire now all have a 25% chance to reset Mangle's cooldown.
• Thanks to Thick Hide, bears now have a 25% passive magic damage reduction.

Talents

Calculator

Talent Changes and New Talents:

• The talent system is changing dramatically in 5.0.4. You will still select a specialization, but all specializations have the same small talent tree (6 tiers, one talent per tier-- we'll only be able to access the first 5 tiers in 5.0.4).
• Druids have four total specializations, since Feral has been split into Feral and Guardian.
• Most of the old talents you're familiar with have been rolled into spec-specific abilities and passives that you will learn naturally as you level up, or when you swap to the associated spec. For example, Feral druids no longer need to talent for Survival Instincts, Omen of Clarity, or Predatory Swiftness. These abilities and passives from pre-5.0.4 talents have not been lost.
• We can only select one talent per tier.

	Talent	Level	Description
	Feline Swiftness	15	Increases your movement speed by 15%
	Displacer Beast		Teleports the Druid up to 20 yards forward and activates Cat Form and Prowl. Instant cast, 3min CD.
	Wild Charge		Grants a movement ability that varies by shapeshift form (15 sec cooldown) Non-shapeshifted: Fly to an ally's position. Bear Form: Charge to an enemy, immobilizing them for 4 sec. Cat Form: Leap behind an enemy, dazing them for 3 sec. Moonkin Form: Bound backward from your enemies. Can only be used in combat. Travel Form: Leap forward 20 yards. Aquatic Form: Increases swim speed by an additional 150% 5 sec.
	Nature's Swiftness	30	When activated, your next Cyclone, Entangling Roots, Healing Touch, Hibernate, Nourish, Rebirth, or Regrowth becomes instant, free, and castable in all forms. The healing and duration of the spell is increased by 50%. Instant, 1 min cooldown
	Renewal		Instantly heals the Druid for 30% of max health. Usable in all forms. Instant, 2 min cooldown
	Cenarion Ward		Protects a friendly target, causing any damage taken to heal the target for 6174 (+ 57% of SpellPower) every 2 sec for 6 sec. Gaining the healing effect consumes the Cenarion Ward. Useable in all shapeshift forms. Lasts 30 sec. 24.8% base Mana, 40 yd range, Instant cast, 30 sec cooldown
	Faerie Swarm	45	Grants an improved version of Faerie Fire that also reduces the target's movement speed by 50% for 15 sec. This talent replaces Faerie Fire. Instant, 2 min cooldown
	Mass Entanglement		Roots your target in place for 20 sec and spreads to additional nearby enemies. Affects 5 total targets. Damage caused may interrupt the effect. Useable in all shapeshift forms. 30 yd range, Instant cast, 2 min cooldown
	Typhoon		Summons a violent Typhoon that strikes targets in front of the caster within 30 yards, knocking them back and dazing them for 6 sec. Useable in all shapeshift forms. 30 yd Range, Instant cast, 20 sec cooldown
	Soul of the Forest	60	Aessina's blessing grants a benefit which varies by your combat specialization. Balance: When a Lunar Eclipse ends you gain 20 Solar Energy and when a Solar Eclipse ends you gain 20 Lunar Energy. Feral: Your finishing moves grant 4 Energy per combo point. Guardian: Mangle now generates an additional 2 Rage. Restoration: You gain 50% haste for your next spell when you cast Swiftmend.
	Incarnation		Grants a superior shapeshifting form appropriate to your specialization for 30 sec. You may freely shapeshift in and out of this form for the duration of Incarnation. Instant, 3 min cooldown Balance: Chosen of Elune: Improved Moonkin Form that gains 25% increased Arcane and Nature damage while Eclipse is active. Feral: King of the Jungle: Improved Cat Form that allows the use of all abilities which normally require stealth, allows the use of Prowl while in combat, and removes the positional requirement of Ravage. Guardian: Son of Ursoc: Improved Bear Form that reduces the cooldown on melee damage abilities and Growl to 1.5 sec. Restoration: Tree of Life: Tree of Life Form that increases healing done by 15%, increases armor by 120%, and enhances Lifebloom, Wild Growth, Regrowth, and Entangling Roots spellcasts.
	Force of Nature		Summons 3 treants to assist in the Druid's current combat role for 15 sec. Treant capabilities vary by specialization. Useable in all shapeshift forms. 40 yd range, Instant, 1 min cooldown
	Disorienting Roar	75	Invokes the spirit of Ursol to roar, disorienting all enemies within 10 yards for 3 sec. Any damage caused will remove the effect. Useable in all shapeshift forms. Instant, 30 sec cooldown
	Ursol's Vortex		Conjures a vortex of wind at the destination location that reduces the movement speed of all enemies within 8 yards by 50%. The first time an enemy attempts to leave the vortex, winds will pull that enemy back to its center. Lasts 10 sec. Useable in all shapeshift forms. 30 yd range, Instant, 1 min cooldown
	Mighty Bash		Invokes the spirit of Ursoc to stun the target for 5 sec. Useable in all shapeshift forms. Melee Range, Instant cast, 50 sec cooldown
	Heart of the Wild	90	Increases Stamina, Agility, and Intellect by 6% at all times. When activated, dramatically improves the Druid's ability to perform roles outside of their normal specialization for 45 sec. Grants the following benefits based on current specialization: Non-Guardian:While in Bear Form, Agility, Expertise, Hit Chance, and armor bonuses increased, Vengeance granted, chance to be hit by melee critical strikes reduced. Non-Feral: While in Cat Form, Agility, Hit Chance, and Expertise increased. Non-Restoration: Healing increased and mana cost of all healing spells reduced by 100%. Guardian Druids may also cast Rejuvenation while shapeshifted. Non-Balance: Spell Damage and Hit Chance increased. Mana cost of all damage spells reduced by 100%. Instant, 6 min CD
	Dream of Cenarius		Wrath, Starfire, Starsurge, and melee abilities increase healing done by your next healing spell by 30%. Tranquility is not affected. Nourish, Healing Touch, and Regrowth increase the damage done by your next 2 Moonfire or Sunfire casts by 65% or by your next 2 melee abilities by 25%. Each of these bonuses lasts 30 sec.
	Nature's Vigil		Increases all damage and healing done by 20% for 30 sec. While active, all single-target healing spells also damage a nearby enemy target for 25% of the healing done, and all single-target damage spells and abilities also heal a nearby friendly target for 25% of the damage done. Instant, 3 min CD

Druid: Symbiosis

• The Druid will select a raid or party member and cast Symbiosis on them.
• The target cannot be another Druid.
• The target gains a buff that tells them what spell they have temporarily learned, and that spell temporarily appears in their spellbook, and they can drag it to an action bar.
• The Druid’s Symbiosis button will become the ability they gained from the target class.
• The Symbiosis link is cancelled if: the Druid clicks off the Symbiosis buff, or the Druid or the target changes continents or enters or exits an instance, or the Druid or the target changes talent specializations.
• Symbiosis fails to cast if Symbiosis is already active on that target.
• Symbiosis cannot be cast in combat.
• For the non-Druid target, the icon will revert to a placeholder (uncastable) Symbiosis icon when Symbiosis ends, but will become the Symbiosis-granted ability again the next time Symbiosis is cast on that target.
• The ability gained from Symbiosis is always something chosen to match the Druid’s specialization and the target’s combat role.
• The target always gets the same spell unless they change combat roles. A Druid of a given specialization always gets the same spell from each different class. If there is a change of specs, there is a change of spell.

Glyphs

General Majors

• Glyph of Rebirth: Players resurrected by Rebirth are returned to life with 100% health.
• Glyph of Innervate: When Innervate is cast on a friendly target other than the caster, the caster will gain 10% of maximum mana over 10 sec.
• Glyph of Stampeding Roar: Increases the radius of Stampeding Roar by 30 yards.
• Glyph of Stampede: You can now cast Stampeding Roar without being in Bear Form or Cat Form.
• Glyph of Cat Form: Increases healing done to you by 20% while in Cat Form.
• Glyph of Faerie Fire: Increases the range of your Faerie Fire by 10 yds.
• Glyph of Barkskin: Reduces the chance you'll be critically hit by 25% while Barkskin is active.
• Glyph of Cyclone: Increases the range of your Cyclone spell by 4 yards.
• Glyph of Master Shapeshifter: Reduces the mana cost of all shapeshifts by 90%.
• Glyph of Dash: Reduces the cooldown of your Dash ability by 60 sec.
• Glyph of Entangling Roots: Reduces the cast time of your Entangling Roots by 0.2 sec.
• Glyph of Nature's Grasp: Reduces the cooldown of Nature's Grasp by 30 sec.
• Glyph of Skull Bash: Increases the duration of your Skull Bash interrupt by 4 sec, but increases the cooldown by 10 sec.
• Glyph of Hurricane: Your Hurricane and Astral Storm abilities now also slow the movement speed of their victims by 50%.
• Glyph of Prowl: Reduces the movement penalty of Prowl by 30%.
  

Guardian

• Glyph of Might of Ursoc: Increases the health gain from Might of Ursoc by 20%, but increases the cooldown by 2 min.
• Glyph of Frenzied Regeneration: For 6 sec after activating Frenzied Regeneration, healing effects on you are 40% more powerful. However, your Frenzied Regeneration now always costs 60 Rage and no longer converts Rage into health.
• Glyph of Survival Instincts: Reduces the cooldown of Survival Instincts by 60 sec, but reduces its duration by 50%.
• Glyph of Fae Silence: Faerie Fire used in Bear Form also silences the target for 3 sec, but triggers a 15 sec cooldown.
  

Minors

• Glyph of the Cheetah: Your Travel Form appears as a Cheetah. This glyph will prevent Glyph of the Stag from functioning.
• Glyph of the Treant: Teaches you the ability Treant Form.
• Glyph of the Predator: Your Track Humanoids ability now also tracks beasts.
• Glyph of Stars: Your Moonkin Form now appears as Astral Form, conferring all the same benefits, but appearing as an astrally enhanced version of your normal humanoid form.
• Glyph of Charm Woodland Creature: Allows the Druid to befriend an ambient creature, which will follow the Druid for 60 min.
• Glyph of the Chameleon: Each time you shapeshift into Cat Form or Bear Form, your shapeshifted form will have a random hair color.
• Glyph of Grace: Feline Grace reduces falling damage even while not in Cat Form.
• Glyph of Aquatic Form: Increases your swim speed by 50% while in Aquatic Form.
• Glyph of the Orca: Your Aquatic Form now appears as an Orca.
• Glyph of the Stag: Your Travel Form can now be used as a mount by party members. This glyph is disabled while Glyph of the Cheetah is active.

Other Resources for 5.0.4:

• Icy Veins' Guardan (Bear) 5.0.4 guide.

[tangedyn]

Guardian and Feral should have separate threads IMO

[Deleted]

So it looks like we'll need to be using SR in PvP again?

[Kaeth]

So interrupts are standardized to 15s in MoP. Okay, that's fine as long as encounter requirements fit the new standard. But a 10-rage cost ... for an interrupt? That would be fine in the current game, but that amount of rage will take several seconds to generate in the new rage model, and we still have other threat and defensive abilities costing 15 to 60 a piece.

What kind of prohibitive cost will paladins and death knights have for their interrupts as prot/blood? Half their mana? A blood rune?

I can see being floored on rage every time I'd need Skull Bash as a bear. It's that or avoid Thrashing or using Savage Defense or Frenzied Regen in any fight that might require an interrupt.

[Hypnozis]

Could someone please clearify - I have been trying to figure out will we be able to frenzied regen as feral cat (meaning does it work the same as it does now where we go bear and we can pop it) or is it only in the guardian tree? Cause if we are not able to do it as feral cat, that is a huge gimp for us as feral in PVP unless they let us cast rejuv or something while in cat form. Has anyone heard anything about this?

[uzumati]

Looks like FR is a lvl 68 Guardian (not seeing it in the feral list) ability but there is Renewal (30% heal on 2min CD) and Disentanglement (20% heal on 30 sec CD) in the "Trees".

Renewal - Instant cast

Disentanglement - Heal on Shapeshift 30sec icd on the heal

[Hypnozis]

Looks like FR is a lvl 68 Guardian (not seeing it in the feral list) ability but there is Renewal (30% heal on 2min CD) and Disentanglement (20% heal on 30 sec CD) in the "Trees".

Renewal - Instant cast

Disentanglement - Heal on Shapeshift 30sec icd on the heal

Ah ok good point, i didnt realize at first that renewal could be used while shapeshifted those will be nice. I wonder how they will handle things such as the t13 feral 4 piece if you switch to bear for 15 secs you can use raid wide FR, which is nice for fights like H sleeping to give some extra healing.

[Myrrar]

Guardian and Feral should have separate threads IMO

Yeah, I'm going to split them now since I'm overhauling everything anyway.

[Arielle]

@Kaeth: You likely won't be using Thrash except for debuff maintenance.

[Kaeth]

@Kaeth: You likely won't be using Thrash except for debuff maintenance.

That's what I want to assume as well, but so far only the duration for Weakened Blows has been shown, and not for the bleed effect that synergizes with Swipe for maintenance of AoE threat. I'd be surprised if they gave druids a 30-second-duration bleed, so I suspect that the debuff duration is only that long for its use in a single-target rotation for the debuff alone.

If you're AoE tanking, you'll need to keep that bleed (whatever its duration) up so that Swipe generates more threat.

[Arielle]

That's what I want to assume as well, but so far only the duration for Weakened Blows has been shown, and not for the bleed effect that synergizes with Swipe for maintenance of AoE threat. I'd be surprised if they gave druids a 30-second-duration bleed, so I suspect that the debuff duration is only that long for its use in a single-target rotation for the debuff alone.

If you're AoE tanking, you'll need to keep that bleed (whatever its duration) up so that Swipe generates more threat.

That's assuming the damage from Swipe alone with the 5x modifier isn't good enough.

[tangedyn]

If anyone is interested I have a preliminary spreadsheet based on information known so far, and extrapolating our gear and rating conversions from level 85/ilevel 346.

https://docs.google.com/spreadsheet/...MVjdZWXc#gid=0

Here are a few things interesting stuff we can pull from the spreadsheet.

1. There is a "rage generation breakpoint" at 10 RPS (Rage per second), which is around the amount we need to keep Savage Defense up fulltime. The spreadsheet treats it as a hard breakpoint but in reality because of RNG and rage clipping, it will be more like an S curve. It doesn't take into account rage from incoming damage too. Below 10 RPS, the rage generation stats have decent values. Above the breakpoint, rage generation stats become practically useless.

2. At ilevel 346 we are already at ~9.8 RPS without reforging, just slightly below the cap...

3. Above the breakpoint, Dodge > Agi >> Mastery

4. Below the breakpoint, Dodge > Agi > Hit = Expertise > Haste > Crit > Mastery

[Arielle]

It's worth noting that these results are using currently known rage mechanics. It's fully expected that they will be nerfed to the ground at some point before release.

[Kaeth]

Thank you, tangedyn! A couple of questions, though.

It doesn't take into account rage from incoming damage too.

It was my understanding that the current rage model being explored for MoP no longer gives rage based upon incoming damage. Has this design direction changed?

Below 10 RPS, the rage generation stats have decent values. Above the breakpoint, rage generation stats become practically useless.

Beyond sustaining Savage Defense -- which is by all accounts intended to be used when its need is anticipated, not sustained with 100% uptime -- we also have the new Frenzied Regeneration, Maul, Thrash, Skull Bash, and any other rage-consuming ability I forgot to include. Why do "rage generation stats become practically useless" at what's not really even a breakeven point?

Thanks. Just confused on those two points of yours. Maybe I'm reading you wrong.

[Arielle]

The choice will generally be between SD and FR. FR to recover from heavy magic damage, SD to prevent heavy physical damage. If there's both you'll need to pick one or the other to deal with (likely FR since it helps recover from physical too).

Maul never enters the picture.

Excess Rage can be spent on Thrash. However since its cost vs return is so low, you won't really want to use it except for debuff maintenance (as previously stated).

So in terms of survivability any excess rage after 10 RPS is much less valuable than say Mastery or Dodge.

[Braindwen]

2. At ilevel 346 we are already at ~9.8 RPS without reforging, just slightly below the cap...

When you take into account dodged and parried white hits generating rage (which they do right now, though I'm assuming this will change in MoP), that spreadsheet's profile is actually over 10 RPS.

Yeah, I expect rage isn't finished yet .

[Raugnaut]

If anyone is interested I have a preliminary spreadsheet based on information known so far, and extrapolating our gear and rating conversions from level 85/ilevel 346.

https://docs.google.com/spreadsheet/...MVjdZWXc#gid=0

Here are a few things interesting stuff we can pull from the spreadsheet.

1. There is a "rage generation breakpoint" at 10 RPS (Rage per second), which is around the amount we need to keep Savage Defense up fulltime. The spreadsheet treats it as a hard breakpoint but in reality because of RNG and rage clipping, it will be more like an S curve. It doesn't take into account rage from incoming damage too. Below 10 RPS, the rage generation stats have decent values. Above the breakpoint, rage generation stats become practically useless.

2. At ilevel 346 we are already at ~9.8 RPS without reforging, just slightly below the cap...

3. Above the breakpoint, Dodge > Agi >> Mastery

4. Below the breakpoint, Dodge > Agi > Hit = Expertise > Haste > Crit > Mastery

Where are you getting your value for Agility? Since Savage Defense in MoP form is being changed to no longer rely on AP at all, and our dependence on crit is being removed to the point where we can not crit for a large period of time, it doesnt cause us to take a significant amount of damage (As stated, its possible to reach the 10 RPS breakpoint in low gear lvls, at higher gear lvls, I would assume you can, at times, have both FR and SD up.) I fail to see how Agility is greater then both Haste, Crit, Expertise, and Hit above the breakpoint for mitigation, as it would only offer 1/3 the dodge of dodge rating and close to 1/2 the crit of crit (although dodge is greater then Agility, that I can see)

I had a question about the Hit being equivalent to Experitse, but then remembered new stat changes.

Edit- I see you are using Theincbear spreadsheet, which is based on the current SD model.

---------- Post added 2012-03-08 at 02:12 AM ----------

The choice will generally be between SD and FR. FR to recover from heavy magic damage, SD to prevent heavy physical damage. If there's both you'll need to pick one or the other to deal with (likely FR since it helps recover from physical too).

FR consumes rage, instead of requiring rage to be spent. So one could use SD, and then immediatly use FR to generate healing over the next few seconds. (At 20 RPS, it takes 3 seconds to acqire the rage to use SD, and then you pop FR to generate 5% health regenerated every second, as it only consumes 10 rage per second for 6 seconds, thus leaving you with a 10 RPS generation for 6 seconds, allowing you to use SD again once FR ends). At 30 RPS, you can have a constant uptime for FR and SD, with the ability to use Thrash for the debuff

---------- Post added 2012-03-08 at 02:20 AM ----------

I would also like to add that Thrash CAN return its rage cost. It would be more worthwhile to use Thrash on AoE groups, and then proceed to using Mangle every time it procs, which will probably be very often. In addition, keeping Lacerate up on 3 or more targets will probably greatly increase rage generation.

[tangedyn]

Where are you getting your value for Agility? Since Savage Defense in MoP form is being changed to no longer rely on AP at all, and our dependence on crit is being removed to the point where we can not crit for a large period of time, it doesnt cause us to take a significant amount of damage (As stated, its possible to reach the 10 RPS breakpoint in low gear lvls, at higher gear lvls, I would assume you can, at times, have both FR and SD up.) I fail to see how Agility is greater then both Haste, Crit, Expertise, and Hit above the breakpoint for mitigation, as it would only offer 1/3 the dodge of dodge rating and close to 1/2 the crit of crit (although dodge is greater then Agility, that I can see)

I had a question about the Hit being equivalent to Experitse, but then remembered new stat changes.[COLOR="red"]

Edit- I see you are using Theincbear spreadsheet, which is based on the current SD model.

The MoP version of the spreadsheet is based on my 4.3 spreadsheet, yes, but the SD model of the MoP spreadsheet of course uses the MoP SD model. Your assumptions for the dodge value of agility is totally off. Agility gives 72.55% of Dodge% that Dodge Rating gives, and 55.19% of the Crit% that Crit Rating gives.

I would also like to add that Thrash CAN return its rage cost. It would be more worthwhile to use Thrash on AoE groups, and then proceed to using Mangle every time it procs, which will probably be very often. In addition, keeping Lacerate up on 3 or more targets will probably greatly increase rage generation.

No it can't. Primal Fury now only works with autoattacks and Mangle.

---------- Post added 2012-03-08 at 10:59 AM ----------

It was my understanding that the current rage model being explored for MoP no longer gives rage based upon incoming damage. Has this design direction changed?

Not that I know of. I may have missed the the part about incoming damage no longer giving rage, in which case I don't have to worry about modelling it anymore.

Beyond sustaining Savage Defense -- which is by all accounts intended to be used when its need is anticipated, not sustained with 100% uptime -- we also have the new Frenzied Regeneration, Maul, Thrash, Skull Bash, and any other rage-consuming ability I forgot to include. Why do "rage generation stats become practically useless" at what's not really even a breakeven point?

I assume we are going to glyph FR if the option for that is still there. We will probably not want to use Maul anymore. Thrash is covered by Enrage (Thrash is 15 rage every 30s, Enrage is 30 rage every minute). I mean to say that rage gen stats beyond the cap is useless for the mitigation model, but you will still want to be slightly above the cap to cover RNG, capping, have some buffer and the extra use cases such as Stampeding Roar...

[Raugnaut]

The MoP version of the spreadsheet is based on my 4.3 spreadsheet, yes, but the SD model of the MoP spreadsheet of course uses the MoP SD model. Your assumptions for the dodge value of agility is totally off. Agility gives 72.55% of Dodge% that Dodge Rating gives, and 55.19% of the Crit% that Crit Rating gives.

No it can't. Primal Fury now only works with autoattacks and Mangle

Ah, I see how I was off now. However, in terms of what I meant by rage cost being covered was that a Thrash tick could proc Mangle off CD, and seperate from Lacerate, which could then proc Primal Fury, thus granting rage coverage. While subject to RNG, it can turn out rage neutral.

In addition, looking at the charts again, I see that Armor gives .8357 mitigation/TTL stat wieghting, while Mastery gives .2853 stat wieghting. Is the armor amount listed taking Bear Form into account, for the 300% extra armor in bear form? If is isnt, then while tanking, the druid will have 42292 armor, and every point of mastery will grant 274.898 armor while in bear form. At 85, it takes, if I am not mistaken, 180 mastery rating in order to get 1 point of mastery. Thus, each point of mastery rating grants about 1.52 armor while in bear form, if I am not incorrect. Since Armor has a value of .8357, wouldnt Mastery have a value of 1.303? That, or I have no idea how simulations are done, and should stay in a corner and be silent.

[tangedyn]

Since when did Thrash ticks proc Mangle off CD?