MOP Walocks "pet less"

[Paraclef]

I'd love to make a giant construtive post but I have already foreseen all of this....

1 post of a mage who want to roll a warlock alt > 100 posts of advanced warlocks....

[Ataro]

I'm fairly certain that the blue post is outdated by now. I'm not sure how high our Demonic Fury cap is, but we seem to be building it up quite fast.

Soul Fire + 40
Shadow Bolt + 25
Shadowflame + 15
Corruption + 12 per tick
HoG + 25 per target

We then use spells like Demonic Slash and Carrion Swarm that drain our Demonic Fury. I'm not even sure if Meta will have a max duration or if it will drain Demonic Fury passively. It seems like we'll be using spells to drain it, meaning we could technically stay in Meta forever if we don't attack. Of course this is only speculation, but it seems like they want to give us far more control over when we pop Meta, and have it be more dynamic gameplay. I would actually love it if we didn't have a Demonic Fury cap, or have it be VERY high. This way we could hold Meta for a while, then have it up for a while when we need it.

This sort of makes it sound like Boomkins Lunar rotation

[Dejin]

I've been playing a warlock for a very long time and the crazy thing is, I've always hated the pet. I'm completely for this.

[Jiraden]

I haven't looked at any lock talent trees for MoP yet, so I'm not quite sure what we're discussing here...

...but the thought of a completely petless warlock sounds pretty awesome to me. I'd dust mine off for that.

[Tric619]

locks used to sac pets in TBC and it worked just fine tbh....
This time around just seems more polished, Imo its an option that allows for more flexibility in your playstyle.

[Kathranis]

Not sure about this. A lot has been said about using it below the Fury cap, but having dug this up recently, it seems not to be the case.

Demonology will get Demonic Fury, you build up Demonic Fury and you metamorphosize when you max your Demonic Fury. More skills will be added to Demon Form, etc ...

Obviously the model could have changed, but it's basically Impending Doom without the RNG - spam rotation better, get Meta faster.

That's definitely outdated. You can now use Metamorphosis whenever you want, like a druid form, and it causes several abilities to transform. Some warlock abilities generate Demonic Fury and others consume it. It's extremely clear from how the tooltips are presented.

We also do know that players will obviously have several of options for how they interact with their demons. For example...


No Demon: Sacrificial Pact + Grimoire of Sacrifice + Demonic Rebirth
- Revolves around damaging and sacrificing and resummoning your minion in order to buff your character directly.

Upgraded Demon: Grimoire of Supremacy + Summon Wrathguard + Summon Abyssal/Terroguard
- Revolves around having a few very strong demons and using them to enhance your DPS indirectly.

Lots of Demons: Wild Imps + Grimoire of Service + Summon Infernal/Doomguard
- Revolves around unleashing a constant march of demons or a small army of demons all at once.
- Capable of summoning eight demons simultaneously.

[Jessicka]

I haven't looked at any lock talent trees for MoP yet, so I'm not quite sure what we're discussing here...

...but the thought of a completely petless warlock sounds pretty awesome to me. I'd dust mine off for that.

You're the guy these changes are aimed at.

I've been playing a warlock for a very long time and the crazy thing is, I've always hated the pet. I'm completely for this.

Can I ask why you rolled a Warlock in the first place?

locks used to sac pets in TBC and it worked just fine tbh....
This time around just seems more polished, Imo its an option that allows for more flexibility in your playstyle.

Because your choice in that tier of talents in and of itself is determined purely by which will pull the biggest numbers, making it the least flexible decision you'll make?

That's definitely outdated. You can now use Metamorphosis whenever you want, like a druid form, and it causes several abilities to transform. Some warlock abilities generate Demonic Fury and others consume it. It's extremely clear from how the tooltips are presented.

We also do know that players will obviously have several of options for how they interact with their demons. For example...


No Demon: Sacrificial Pact + Grimoire of Sacrifice + Demonic Rebirth
- Revolves around damaging and sacrificing and resummoning your minion in order to buff your character directly.

Upgraded Demon: Grimoire of Supremacy + Summon Wrathguard + Summon Abyssal/Terroguard
- Revolves around having a few very strong demons and using them to enhance your DPS indirectly.

Lots of Demons: Wild Imps + Grimoire of Service + Summon Infernal/Doomguard
- Revolves around unleashing a constant march of demons or a small army of demons all at once.
- Capable of summoning eight demons simultaneously.

The tooltips merely appear incomplete, and deliberately so as numbers and mechanics aren't finalised. There's no blue post anywhere that contradicts the original statement from Blizzcon. Only player speculation has determined that the ability is executable at will.

[smegdawg]

That's definitely outdated. You can now use Metamorphosis whenever you want, like a druid form, and it causes several abilities to transform. Some warlock abilities generate Demonic Fury and others consume it. It's extremely clear from how the tooltips are presented.

Just because there is no information on the duration of Meta does not mean it is permanent ( i.e. shape shifting). We do not know if Meta will consume DF on its own along with the meta abilities. We do not know if there is a cooldown for meta. We do not know if meta has a limited duration regardless of DF.

[roahn the warlock]

if i had to pick, Affliction would be the spec to not use a demon.. it doesn't really do anything.* furthermore, Destro will have a pet, demonic empowerment in the destro tree cuts the cast time of soulfire per hit. so it probably lines up with having embers.*

[MrHappy]

well i dunno...the sac pet only seems worht while for the 30% burst because i think a pet does more than 15% of my damage so...we'll have to wait and see...if not then im opting for better pet or 2x pet

[gakpad]

On potentially playing a petless class depending on talents:

I do not give any shits. It's not like I'm managing all my imp's casts right now or anything. It's a completely passive mechanic for all intents and purposes and I quite frankly wouldn't even notice if my imp was removed and had his damage rolled into mine. The only remotely way this could affect me is as demo, where I wouldn't have to felstorm before I swapped to my felhunter. If anything that's an improvement from a minor annoyance. Frankly I don't see how it matters. If taking the pet sac talent nets me the most dps, I'll do it without thinking twice and won't look back.

[Paraclef]

Grimoire of Sacrifice grants a 30% boost for 15 sec, which drops to 15% for the remaining duration.

I am pretty sure that the " 30 % boost for 15 sec " will have 2 min CD.

[Banefart]

I would say petless would be nice in some situations, be it pvp or certain bosses that don't favour pets(*cough* tendrils on spine, mutated corruptions on madness). All in all, we mustn't ALWAYS have a pet to be the classic locks. I mean lets face it, its not the same WoW we're used to playing like 7 years ago, right? It simply adds some flavour to have the choice to change your gameplay, even if it requires you to sacrifice your voluptuous succubus

---------- Post added 2012-03-06 at 11:27 PM ----------

Coz I Am A PURE AND I want to respec and spend 5000 gold to reforge every times.... just to underperform hybrids.... and then SPINE, Madness and Mind Sear come to my mind.

Thank you...

[Kildragon]

you can't be serious.... WTF ????

Post on your main.... sorry but you deserve it. Are you an arcane mage.... ?*

Demo AoE is so strong because of Shadowflame + Immolation Aura + Hellfire + Fel Storm. The only thing that will change is Hellfire will turn into Immo Aura. I know how to play my class and I have an idea of how Demo will work in MoP

---------- Post added 2012-03-06 at 07:21 PM ----------

There is absolutely nothing, whatsover, other than player speculation to suggest that at all.

How can you even know what stat weightings are going to be best for Demo? On the face of it, more haste = faster fury generation, especially if Corruption ticks are going to be generating Fury across multiple targets.

Demonic Leap activates Metamorphosis and it has a 10 second CD, suggesting that Meta will be able to be used whenever we have Demonic Fury. On top of that, Meta doesn't have a CD. So us being able to use Meta whenever we want to is based on the calculator, and it certainly makes sense. For the last part of that, yes I was speculating, and I was never claiming that I was right. I even said, "Of course this is only speculation", then you jump in trying to discredit me by saying this is all just speculation.

As for the Demo stat weights, I said "it currently feels worse than Destro multidotting". I was clearly talking about how annoying multi dotting is currently, not in the future. The only thing I said about MoP is that we will be generating Demonic Fury very very fast while multi dotting due to every single tick giving Demonic Fury.

You're just not a pleasant person and are clearly looking to argue.

---------- Post added 2012-03-06 at 07:23 PM ----------

I'd love to make a giant construtive post but I have already foreseen all of this....

1 post of a mage who want to roll a warlock alt > 100 posts of advanced warlocks....

You are clearly trolling, and are simply an idiot. You can't even formulate intelligent sentences, or make a point without sounding like an uneducated fool.

---------- Post added 2012-03-06 at 07:25 PM ----------

Because your choice in that tier of talents in and of itself is determined purely by which will pull the biggest numbers, making it the least flexible decision you'll make?

Considering how Blizz has to only balance three talents against each other, all they have to do is make the output for a fight over X duration the same, which really isn't that hard. At that point, players can choose talents based on the needs of the group or the fight.

---------- Post added 2012-03-06 at 07:29 PM ----------

Just because there is no information on the duration of Meta does not mean it is permanent ( i.e. shape shifting). We do not know if Meta will consume DF on its own along with the meta abilities. We do not know if there is a cooldown for meta. We do not know if meta has a limited duration regardless of DF.

I might have worded that wrong, I was simply suggesting that currently it looks like Meta will not have a CD and will be able to be activated whenever we have Demonic Fury. The duration, consumption of Demonic Fury, and other things are still up in the air, but from the info we have I think it is fair to assume that Meta will be activated at will.

[Paraclef]

But you have forgotten Immolate... so yeah you know how to play....

And running everywhere with hellfire won't help, you won't be able to perform on multitarget, at least on fight like Valiona, Bethilac or Madness HM with only one dot.... Even for Yorshaj, running like an idiot in meta can't help to beat a shadow;p or a mage if you don't use immolate.


Yeah, i am clearly an idiot, because I have read every single line of every feedback since TBC, and I clearly don't understand how devs are thinking....*

[Xelnath]

Let's say Demonic Fury caps at 1000 Fury, drains at a rate of 6 per second and abilities cost 40 fury per second of cast time.

[Kildragon]

But you have forgotten Immolate... so yeah you know how to play....

And running everywhere with hellfire won't help, you won't be able to perform on multitarget, at least on fight like Valiona, Bethilac or Madness HM with only one dot.... Even for Yorshaj, running like an idiot in meta can't help to beat a shadow;p or a mage if you don't use immolate.


Yeah, i am clearly an idiot, because I have read every single line of every feedback since TBC, and I clearly don't understand how devs are thinking....*

You're clearly confusing current Demo design with MoP Demo design. I hate Demo multi target right now, because Immolate/Corrup don't hit hard enough, especially when compared to Afflic. Depending on the situation, and how close the multiple targets are together, the new multi target design in MoP will be amazing. Yes it won't be able to touch Affliction when the mobs are spread out, because we only have Corruption and not Immolate, so I guess I should have clarified.

Demo currently sucks for multi target dotting, but is amazing for AoE. In MoP, it will still be amazing for AoE, and be slightly less annoying for multi target because we will simply spread corruptions and then be in Meta for any multi targeting due to the very fast Demonic Fury gain.

[Orcindauh]

There should be a spec for all pet classes that can go pet less. (Hunters, Locks, DK's)
Example: Unholy DK's vs. Blood / Frost , Frost Mages vs Fire / Arcane. etc.

[nipil]

As for the Demo stat weights

According to the most recent information about Demon Soul being replaced by Dark Soul, and the effect of Dark Soul being dependant on the spec and buffing stats directly (+30% haste for affliction, +30 mastery for demonology, +30% crit for destro), i might be bolt enough to say that we may run into a model where haste could be the primary stat for affliction, mastery could be the primary stat for demonology, and crit chance could be the primary stat for destruction. I won't dare estimate what the second stat order would be. Please note the many conditionnal mode wording in my post, but at least it seems logical to me.

[Jessicka]

Demonic Leap activates Metamorphosis and it has a 10 second CD, suggesting that Meta will be able to be used whenever we have Demonic Fury. On top of that, Meta doesn't have a CD. So us being able to use Meta whenever we want to is based on the calculator, and it certainly makes sense. For the last part of that, yes I was speculating, and I was never claiming that I was right. I even said, "Of course this is only speculation", then you jump in trying to discredit me by saying this is all just speculation.

The 10s Cooldown on Leap is meaningless, as the lack of cooldown on Meta. Like every other ability in game, if the requirements in terms of resources, stance etc aren't met, it cannot be used. There are so many issues with so many abilities tooltips, that it's better to assume they're incomplete and/or incorrect than to make inferences that are contrary to statements that have already been made. Don't get me wrong, I'd love for Meta to be usable on demand regardless of Fury, but it's better not to let wishful thinking get in the way of facts we're given.

As for the Demo stat weights, I said "it currently feels worse than Destro multidotting". I was clearly talking about how annoying multi dotting is currently, not in the future. The only thing I said about MoP is that we will be generating Demonic Fury very very fast while multi dotting due to every single tick giving Demonic Fury.

That's your opinion and you're entitled to it. I think it's fine, and don't see really how it could be made any different other than taking Soul Swap from Affliction or Havoc from Destruction. It'd be nice if it hit harder sure, but one spec can't be good at everything. It's not even certain that it would even be a nerf, I'd fully expect Immolate's damage to be rolled into Corruption afterall; the damage loss has to end up somewhere.

You're just not a pleasant person and are clearly looking to argue.

I'm not looking to argue at all. What I am doing, is saying that I feel they are making too many changes in order to fix things that aren't broken. While I accept there are issues that need fixing, a lot of other perceived problems which are being targeted are things that would be fine if other real problems were fixed; or are simply overweighted as issues and things taken too far to rectify them, or simply being fixed in completely the wrong way. For example the particular "problem" of encounters being unfavourable to pet classes should not I feel be being fixed by class designers, but rather by encounter designers who need to remember that 8 out of 30 (33 in MoP) specs use pets. I also do not feel that talent choices should be wasted on band aids for such situations when there's potential for something genuinely interesting to go in it's place (let's assume encounter designers learned their lessons and future encounters aren't detrimental to pet classes - what use is the talent then?). Another issue relating to Demonology is "too many buttons", again not a huge issue in my book, but certainly Shadowflame, Immolation Aura, and perhaps even Hand of Gul'dan could be regarded as superfluous and trimmed from the single target rotation without too much detriment to the playstyle; taking away Immolate and Incinerate as well is two steps too far and changes the playstyle too much in terms of breaking it down to a dot and a filler that changes according to stance, and removes the dynamism of the random proc which would otherwise break up the long periods of single filler spam. Those are my fully explained views on the matter. It's not 'seeking an argument', but you can't seem to find anything to counter them, so resort to insulting me directly. Nice touch.

Considering how Blizz has to only balance three talents against each other, all they have to do is make the output for a fight over X duration the same, which really isn't that hard. At that point, players can choose talents based on the needs of the group or the fight.

It's taken over 12 months for them to reach that point of balance, after being at a similar point 18 months ago and not making realistically a substantial number of changes from the previous iterations of the specs. What's coming are very substantial changes to all three specs; it would be highly unlikely given previous experiences, to see the level of balance we have between specs come anything close to what we have now for at least another 12 months after this goes live.