MOP Walocks "pet less"

[noaim]

Not really. I don't show up just to do DPS, the class offers much more than that, and many of those things we offer come from abilities our pets provide. Where would we have been on Rag without Felstorm and Axe Toss for example?

I refer you to my answer to your previous statement. Our pets do offer useful active abilities, and I trust myself as a player to be able to use them effectively in the same way I trust myself to deal with encounter mechanics that require active intervention, and to throw out a battleres if needed. If you're just about tunnelling DPS, and your RL never asks you do anything other than that and avoid fire, then sure it probably wouldn't make much difference. Otherwise, it's ending up in a similar situation to that prior to Cata where you were making the "choice" between Doom/Agony and Elements for your curse; and I think we can agree there that that wasn't a choice at all.

I wasnt aware that it was a talent you HAD to take. It is a 15% buff, I think it is safe to assume pets will do between 10-20% extra damage, so if it is worth to lose up to 5% dps for the utility the pets provide, then you can simply just not spec it. If Ragnaros was a MoP encounter and those Felguard abilities were necessary, you would obviously just spec for service or supremacy and use your pet. With all pet damage being mainstreamed too, you can use the imp on fights like Atramedes etc. This is just an additional option for people who prefer it, nothing you HAVE to spec and use.

[Jessicka]

You don't feel that returning to the Curse of Damage or Curse of Utility model would be a step backwards then?

[noaim]

Which curse you used had nothing to do with personal preference, you had to use CoE if it wasnt already applied, otherwise your only option was CoD. This however will in most cases be based entirely on what you personally prefer. Ofc they could fuck up the balance completely, but this argument could be had for anything in the game if you assume that it will be unbalanced. You will be forced to play Affliction if its by far the best spec, you will be forced to spec this or that if its by far the best, etc.

I still cant understand what the big problem is, there are three different options in that tier, pick whatever you feel is the most fun and be happy with that. Why do you want to eliminate a choice that a lot of people want? How does it affect you if I play my warlock without a pet, when you can still play yours with a pet?

[Deleted]

I dont play lock And havent read up how the pet thing is gonna work now, but i think that was the apeal of having a demonic pet I personaly would be sad if lock pets went

[Jessicka]

Which curse you used had nothing to do with personal preference, you had to use CoE if it wasnt already applied, otherwise your only option was CoD. This however will in most cases be based entirely on what you personally prefer. Ofc they could fuck up the balance completely, but this argument could be had for anything in the game if you assume that it will be unbalanced. You will be forced to play Affliction if its by far the best spec, you will be forced to spec this or that if its by far the best, etc.

I still cant understand what the big problem is, there are three different options in that tier, pick whatever you feel is the most fun and be happy with that. Why do you want to eliminate a choice that a lot of people want? How does it affect you if I play my warlock without a pet, when you can still play yours with a pet?

You don't seem to understand that it cannot ever be balanced. A pet can only attack a single target, so if that talent equates to roughly the same output to a single target, it will be a substantially more powerful option against 2 or more targets. Most encounters require you to attack multiple targets, which means on most encounters it would be superior. The other talents you would therefore only ever use if the pets offered more damage against a single target, or if they offered specific utility.

That leads on then to unbalance the specs. Demo basically can't use that talent effectively at all, and Destro looses some synergy. Affliction evidently would work fine with that talent, so we end up basically railroaded into a petless Affliction spec for most encounters. That for me is not great design. Maybe the other talents will work better with Demo or Destro; but if that's the case, why not just bake the talents into their prefered specs?

[infernity]

Well, atm, we're unsure what increase Supremacy will give. *If we were looking at the flat increase compared to the pets we have now, hell yes you'd be right. *We also have no idea if we can manually control the 2nd demon we gain through ........ the other talent.

I don't think it's going to be something i would do for every fight, we'll be making decisions on fights based on what we're facing, which is a better idea imo. *Extra damage going out? *We'll have the pet for Soul Link. *Need an interrupt/purge, we'll do something else, considering right now, we don't even know what abilities the Supremacy-ed pets will bring (utility-wise). *And if there's a fight where we need burst damage, we have the option there of it, instead of being tied into going into a certain spec.

It would seem to be more about choice overall, but as someone else said, considering as destro especially, your pet really is fire and forget. *You tell him what to attack, the end. *However, that part would seem to be continuing, for destro at least, with the pet being tied to Soul Fire cast reduction so closely..... hmmm

[noaim]

You don't seem to understand that it cannot ever be balanced. A pet can only attack a single target, so if that talent equates to roughly the same output to a single target, it will be a substantially more powerful option against 2 or more targets. Most encounters require you to attack multiple targets, which means on most encounters it would be superior. The other talents you would therefore only ever use if the pets offered more damage against a single target, or if they offered specific utility.

That leads on then to unbalance the specs. Demo basically can't use that talent effectively at all, and Destro looses some synergy. Affliction evidently would work fine with that talent, so we end up basically railroaded into a petless Affliction spec for most encounters. That for me is not great design. Maybe the other talents will work better with Demo or Destro; but if that's the case, why not just bake the talents into their prefered specs?

Which puts us back at square one. Yeah, it will probably be better on some encounters and worse on some, same as our different specs today are better on some encounters and worse on some, which will ALWAYS be the case, but again, if pushing max numbers is what is your number one concern, then there is usually some class that does it better than warlocks on each specific encounter too. For people who actually do endgame content however, it will be a great flexibility-tool since it will give us more options on tight encounters. If pets are shit on a fight, we will have the option to sacrifice it so warlocks dont have to be benched on tightly tuned encounters because we lose part of our pet dps. I also think you overvalue how effective multidotting will be in MoP, with our aff filler increasing the rate that dots tick by 100%. Right now we gain 38% dot damage on a single target from Haunt + SE, so unless Malefic Grasp is gonna do fuck all damage and our dots be powerful as hell, the actual damage value will probably be toned down a bit.

No, it probably wont be the exact same damage between the three talents in that tier, but there is no reason why they cant be close enough to eachother for the choice to be based on what you prefer and not something you are forced into because it is so much more powerful than the other options, unless you are in the world first race.

[Xelnath]

Jessicka - all this means is that they make the talent "Increases your single-target damage by X%" instead of all damage.

[Deleted]

Now, i may be wrong, but how im reading it, is that its a 1 of 3 talent choices, to which ill be picking the upgraded Demons or the second demon, as opposed to the sacrificing of it.

Or am i missing something else?

[Beyz]

To be honest, the pet mechanics in wow are clunky and poorly designed. Basically pet abilities are just like using one of your own abilities on a separate GCD if macroed. I like the idea of proccing demons from various effects way more than having a steady pet running alongside with me, not being anything but a bother.

I've never felt pets as the thing defining warlocks. If anything they're the thing I hate the most about the class.

[Jessicka]

Jessicka - all this means is that they make the talent "Increases your single-target damage by X%" instead of all damage.

Kinda, although 'Sacrificing your pet curses the targetted unit causing them to take 15% more damage for x amount of time' would be a more accurate application, since it would eliminate the multidotting aspect. Slightly clunky though.

[Xelnath]

Kinda, although 'Sacrificing your pet curses the targetted unit causing them to take 15% more damage for x amount of time' would be a more accurate application, since it would eliminate the multidotting aspect. Slightly clunky though.

Yes, but it wouldn't allow target switching at all - which would suck.

[smegdawg]

Increases your single-target damage by X%

If all 3 talents are "equal" in single target damage then its just going to become the cookie cutter build Bliz is trying to get away from, after someone sims them all and says A > B ≥ C.

I prefer having them all be more powerful in given situations because while you would still eventually be pigeon holed into a specific talent, you would need to constantly adapt to new situations. Do I want more burst to burn the add down so he doesn't kill us all? or do I want more multi dotting power so I can keep pressure on all three targets at once?

Basically pet abilities are just like using one of your own abilities on a separate GCD if macroed. I like the idea of proccing demons from various effects way more than having a steady pet running alongside with me, not being anything but a bother.

Definitely not defining, but I love having the off the GCD ability that can be a game changer if used correctly. As far as proc'ing demons from abilities, I'd like it if there was a more precise way of controlling which target they attack. I can just imagine proc'ing 3-4 demons, 2 of which are shooting different targets, 1 who is standing still or taking a good 5 second break between casts, and 1 who is running in circles because he is trying to get into range of a different target every other second.

[Suikoden]

Please don't, they'll listen. Petless Demonologists tanking in permanent Meta form, with the ability to fly of course. Do you want to be responsible for that?

The sheer thought of that makes me cringe. Even more so considering they'd do it. What a sad world we live in...

[Mint]

From what the devs have said, they want all three Grimoire options to be essentially equal.

This would mean that saccing your pet should yield an overall damage increase roughly equivalent to the pet's damage.
This means two things:
1. Saccing would likely be the highest damage increase for aoe trash or encounters that include large aoe phases.
2. Saccing would likely be the highest damage increase for unique-mechanic fights like Alysrazor, where pet's ability to deal damage is restricted.

However, two things often overlooked are:
1. If the damage increase from saccing is roughly similar to the demon's damage, then this is sacrificing (terrible pun) pet utility for a situational damage increase.
2. Saccing will break Soul-Link, Blood Pact, Fel intelligence, in addition to specific warlock talents that involve pet procs, as well as eliminate the use of two of your tier 45 talents.

So, Grimoire of Sacrifice talent looks to be useful in a few specific situations, and has it's own unique drawbacks if used in others. This seems to me to be exactly what they were aiming for with the new system. If you want to optimize your performance, switching around will help in some situations, but there isn't a clear-cut choice for a raiding lock.

[Nfariessence]

How amazing would it be to... have talents and trees that are actually... synergistic with eachother? Maybe talents that not only didn't have a plus side with a downside*, but had only plus sides to them? Or even... a talent that has multiple plus sides to it**!

I'm tired of settling for crappy talents, crappy mechanics (Destro sounds frankly horrible, Demo not much better), and retarded tree design. Pets behave more intelligently? Auto Wand? Really? I'm pissed as hell that they are taking things that are currently baseline and counted upon and then giving it back to us as talent choices and they call that interesting (I'm looking at you, Soul Link), or even taking things away that are major QoL issues (like Soul Harvest for regenning health or Soul Burn for instant pet summons for anyone other than Afflic). Can you imagine the outrage if they took Ice Block away from all mage specs and gave it to Frost? Or if Cloak was only for Sub rogues?

Why do we get all the crap? Because we accept it.


* Like Sacrificial Pact, Dark Bargain, Blood Fear, Burning Rush, Unbound Will, Grimoire of Sacrifice, and Kil'jaeden's Cunning.
** See, also: Incanter's Shield. A damage shield. Which with today's stats would be worth about 45K absorb. That converts damage to mana. And if it gets popped, you get 30% increased spell power for 15 seconds. That's like what? (Netherward + VW Sacrifice x 2) + (Life Tap's mana return x 2) + (4pc T13 bonus x 300% power x 150% duration).... except it's on a 25 second cooldown with zero mana cost.

[Xelnath]

Health is a pretty minor cost, considering how easily it is restored.

[Jessicka]

Health is a pretty minor cost, considering how easily it is restored.

It's a pretty major cost when you run out of it.

[Nfariessence]

It's a pretty major cost when you run out of it.

This. Also, I don't PvP anymore, but why is it if they thought that Fel Armor's paltry 2% max health every 5 seconds was overpowered and warranted nerfing to it's current state, then how bad is 5% health/0.33% health per second going to be? Also keep in mind that as of right now, no specs have any kind of passive healing whatsoever. No Siphon Life, no Soul Leech, and Fel Armor goes back to it's initial implementation of increasing healing received, but gives nothing passively/actively to warlocks. All you'll have is a Healthstone now, plus Ember Tap for Destruction (with the trade off that you're giving up DPS potential for it, amongst other things).

The question again is - why should so many of our talents/abilities have a tradeoff, regardless of how significant or insignificant they are? It would be one thing if at greater cost, it came with commensurately greater rewards (like maybe doing 5% more damage under realistic conditions than other non-nonsense DPSers), but if we require healers to babysit us on top of doing equal or 10% less damage than other classes, why would you ever choose to bring a warlock?

[Mayhem]

what´s this thread about?

we were a petless class more then once before, so what´s going on? the warlocks i know don´t need you crying, we adapt, we did it in tbc, we did it in wotlk, we did it in cata and we´re going to do it in mop

and i can tell you, it looked bad for warlocks at the beginning of every expantion, if you think the grass is greener on the other side, well then go there i guess

as long as you´re unable to test it during beta/live don´t get yourselfs to much fired up, it´s sure to change whatever you might think is going to kill the fun for you