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  1. #21
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    I'm all for a pet-less warlock spec. The pet is such a hindrance on many encounters; it can despawn, refuse to attack, or bug in other ways. Mages and DKs can choose a pet spec so why shouldn't a warlock be able to choose a pet-less spec? And while we're at it, yes, hunters could have a pet-less "archer" spec as well (marksman is a good candidate).

  2. #22
    Quote Originally Posted by Nfariessence View Post
    Warlocks need direction.
    They have had, and still have direction. A pet class that utilises a number of spells and abilities, unconstrained by resources and who's spec defines which of those abilities are the greater focus; be they predominantly Shadow Damage DoTs from Affliction, Direct Damage predominantly fire spells for Destruction, and mixture of Shadow, Fire, and Demonic assistance for Demonology. That's been the direction we've been heading in the past nearly three and a half years.

    I get the impression from most posters that 3.3.x Destruction was the best Destruction has been in terms of rotation, it was a little underpowered thanks to PvP capping it's burst, and that did need fixing. The problem was however 'fixed' in too many ways: Player health was increased dramatically, Dark Intent was introduced to add ramp up and cap burst, DoTs were allowed to Crit putting more emphasis on them and adding Corruption to the rotation, and of course Improved Soul Fire was implemented to further increase ramp up. DI and ISF were, in my opinion at least, unnecessary additions; DI added a cap to output based on raid composition, and ISF is just a clunky mechanic; but either way, the sum result of all these additions hurt the playstyle for many in PvE, and limited the spec substantially in PvP. Having only 2 out of those four mechanics would have kept a streamlined spec, and maintained PvP viability.

    For Demonology, again, once ISF had been moved out of reach was in a great place. Yes there were, and still is the issue of Mastery snapshotting, too big a see-saw of output between Meta and non-Meta. Pet balance could be in a better place with regards to affording the spec utility. But overall, the rotation isn't overly complicated - again it's just damage source management, not really resource; perhaps Shadowflame could go as a single target spell to eliminate the 'melee range' issues and drop a button. As it happens, Immolation Aura being combined with Hellfire, and it's high Fury cost, and the Fury system itself go some way towards 'fixing' the melee issue, and damage see-saw. Pet normalisation sorts the utility issue. So there are definitely positives to look at with what we're looking at so far. Again though, I think they're going too far to fix a perceived problem with an 'overly complex' rotation by removing Molten Core and Immolate.

    Affliction, Blizzard said themselves they like as it is right now. Even going so far as regarding it as one of the most polished specs in game; I agree with that sentiment. Again, there are issues, particularly with Shadow Embrace that could be looked at since it is a burden other DoT specs needn't concern themselves with and perform better as a result, but that's about all there is. It's also our one spec which at present has some semblance of resource management through it's high mana usage. Again, that's fine, the rotation isn't hard and the resource management isn't either. What they seem to be doing here again though, is trimming back on spells when there is no reason to trim back other than that someone who doesn't play the class has this lingering perception from TBC/Vanilla that Affliction is overcomplicated.

    The real problem, is that Blizzard have done nothing to reinforce those directions for each spec but instead opted to change them, or at least, try fix one issue from too many angles at once creating a perception of it and creating more problems in the process.
    Last edited by Jessicka; 2012-03-06 at 02:52 PM.

  3. #23
    Mechagnome Kildragon's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Nfariessence View Post
    It's because there are so many warlocks want to hang on to "cool" or "RP-esque" features of the class more than they want to, y'know, be useful or meaningful. Just look at the ratio of outrage posts over Chaos Bolt being gone (BRING BACK GREEN FIRE!!!) vs. the likelihood of an OOM, auto-wanding Warlock.

    Warlocks need direction. If we're meant to be DPS, make us competitive DPS. If we're meant to be insanely complex DPS, fine - give us truly rewarding DPS as a reward for mastering that complexity. If we're meant to be uber-utility, fine - make us be ~true~ utility that groups will notice, and that helps out a group on most every fight instead of 1 out of 10. Make the specs distinct, and make them fit niches of existing raid encounters (Multi-dot, AOE, and Burst). Survivability, Survivability, and Survivability as our 3 spec choices really suck.

    Direction, it's not just for Google Maps anymore.
    We have direction though. You keep bringing this up in every single warlock thread, yet you seem to ignore every other class in game and keep screaming for more warlock direction. Currently we have 3 viable DPS specs, all of them more than competitive. Affliction has always felt like a dot spec. Demonology certainly feels like a demon based spec, having our demons do a lot of our damage and turning into a demon ourselves. Destruction is the only spec that was actually screwed over this expansion in terms of feeling, having the most dots out of any class in game and losing that blow-shit-up feeling.

    In MoP, Warlock specs will have insane spec identity. Affliction will be using only drains and dots for damage. Demonology will focus even more on the proper use of Meta, and will have a very unique playstyle, even using a spell that summons a horde of imps. Destruction will go back to blowing things up, with the removal of DI, ISF, Corrup, BoD, Burning Embers, and Shadowflame.

    So, where are we lacking direction in MoP? You keep spewing that phrase around while completely ignoring the MoP changes. The niche specs you're looking for are a terrible idea, as I don't want to have to respec every single fight considering I'm in a progression guild. I know that you would never go Demo, and this tier very rarely even went Afflic, but I guess it's your personal choice to screw over the raid team. Personally, I swap to the most beneficial spec for progression, and having niche specs would make us swap literally every single fight, even during farm. Oh and having niche specs says nothing about class direction, it's just a terrible idea overall.

    And FOR THE LOVE OF LOCKS, stop saying we don't have competitive DPS. We are more than competitive, and if played right it shows.

  4. #24
    Quote Originally Posted by salpsan View Post
    bare in mind tho, with what is seen soo far in mop, if you sac a pet and use drain life you will do rly nice dmg and healing
    Cept we have no concept of how scaling of abilities will be altered in any way for MoP, so we got no real numbers to work with.... nobody is in any form of a Beta to test... and Drain Life is gonna be situational at best, with the introduction of Malefic Grasp as Affliction's primary channeled nuke. As well, the healing done by Drain Life (and Harvest Life) for MoP is fixed. Drain Life is 2% every second for 6 sec. Harvest Life is 4% every second for 6 sec.

    So, where are you sourcing your statement of "what we've seen"? Cause unless you are a special person with inside info, we haven't seen a thing, cept for placeholder numbers taken out of context against the system we have now.

  5. #25
    Herald of the Titans Wishblade's Avatar
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    I was very intrigued by the idea of petless Warlock, but Demo and Destro has stuff that supports having a pet and Affli ain't my thing really most of the time. But who knows, I might still do it in some way just cause, the idea of sacrificing my minion to increase my own power sounds like a lovely Warlock thing. =)
    "Reminds me of a dog, you stare at it while it's playing outside... Running around in a circle, then stopping up, wagging with a wide "grin". Jumping around until you call for the dog, then it lowers its tail because it think it's done something bad... And then you throw the ball, seeing the tail go straight into the air in bliss! ^^" - Gehco
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  6. #26
    Quote Originally Posted by Kildragon View Post
    Demonology will focus even more on the proper use of Meta
    Not sure about this. A lot has been said about using it below the Fury cap, but having dug this up recently, it seems not to be the case.
    Originally Posted by Blizzard Entertainment
    Demonology will get Demonic Fury, you build up Demonic Fury and you metamorphosize when you max your Demonic Fury. More skills will be added to Demon Form, etc ...
    Obviously the model could have changed, but it's basically Impending Doom without the RNG - spam rotation better, get Meta faster.

  7. #27
    Mechagnome Kildragon's Avatar
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    Again though, I think they're going too far to fix a perceived problem with an 'overly complex' rotation by removing Molten Core and Immolate.
    Demonology actually seems to be the most promising spec so far in MoP. Demo's resource management will be extremely fun and we will finally be rid of Demo's annoying multi dotting.

    Again, that's fine, the rotation isn't hard and the resource management isn't either. What they seem to be doing here again though, is trimming back on spells when there is no reason to trim back other than that someone who doesn't play the class has this lingering perception from TBC/Vanilla that Affliction is overcomplicated.
    I originally used to think this as well, but after looking at the calculator again I'm not too worried about Affliction.

    Soul Shards will be Affliction only so they can actually be tailored to fit the Affliction playstyle. On top of that, Soul Burn has a 15 second CD, with spells only being able to be Soul Burned once a minute so we will have to properly manage our SB's every 15 seconds. Soul Shards do not regen on their own, so we will have to Drain Soul when we run out (it will regen a Soul Shard every 4 seconds when channeled).

    I used to be worried about the Everlasting Affliction change that essentially turns all of our dots into half minute forget-about-them spells, but looking at what the rotation will most likely look like it doesn't seem that bad. The #1 thing they need to do right is make Soul Shards compelling and giving them enough combat benefits that we can actively rotate them every 15 seconds. If they fix Soul Shards, we will actually have very compelling gameplay without many of the drawbacks that Afflic has right now.

    Since they also want to balance pet damage, our fel hunter may not be our default pet, and its shadowbite damage won't be increased by dots anymore. This means overall lower pet damage, meaning more personal damage.

    Malefic Grasp is simply a way for them to fix our Shadow Embrace issues which were more than annoying, while actually giving Affliction something that can be called burst. We will have no ramp up aside from applying dots, and we will instantly empower them through Malefic Grasp.

    I'm mainly worried about Destro, because if they don't fix that stupid system they have designed for us right now, Destro will be relegated to be the least played spec in game (I could see it being less played than BM Hunters).

    ---------- Post added 2012-03-06 at 10:48 AM ----------

    Quote Originally Posted by Jessicka View Post
    Not sure about this. A lot has been said about using it below the Fury cap, but having dug this up recently, it seems not to be the case.
    Originally Posted by Blizzard Entertainment
    Demonology will get Demonic Fury, you build up Demonic Fury and you metamorphosize when you max your Demonic Fury. More skills will be added to Demon Form, etc ...
    Obviously the model could have changed, but it's basically Impending Doom without the RNG - spam rotation better, get Meta faster.
    I'm fairly certain that the blue post is outdated by now. I'm not sure how high our Demonic Fury cap is, but we seem to be building it up quite fast.

    Soul Fire + 40
    Shadow Bolt + 25
    Shadowflame + 15
    Corruption + 12 per tick
    HoG + 25 per target

    We then use spells like Demonic Slash and Carrion Swarm that drain our Demonic Fury. I'm not even sure if Meta will have a max duration or if it will drain Demonic Fury passively. It seems like we'll be using spells to drain it, meaning we could technically stay in Meta forever if we don't attack. Of course this is only speculation, but it seems like they want to give us far more control over when we pop Meta, and have it be more dynamic gameplay. I would actually love it if we didn't have a Demonic Fury cap, or have it be VERY high. This way we could hold Meta for a while, then have it up for a while when we need it.

    ---------- Post added 2012-03-06 at 10:50 AM ----------

    I just realized that the post you dog up was from Blizzcon, which was last year and WAY before Alpha testing. They seem to have reiterated on overall Warlock design quite a bit, so I'd say we can be certain that the gameplay they describe is not how it currently works in testing.

  8. #28
    Quote Originally Posted by Kildragon View Post
    Demonology actually seems to be the most promising spec so far in MoP. Demo's resource management will be extremely fun and we will finally be rid of Demo's annoying multi dotting.
    How is it annoying? Aside from the fact that Corruption itself generates Fury meaning you'll want to use it on as many things as possible, it's not really any different from multidotting on my SPriest - the dots just don't hit as hard.

  9. #29
    Mechagnome Kildragon's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Paraclef View Post
    Corruption will be your lonely dot and for every multdoting fight, you will...... *shine ???*
    We won't be Multi dotting in MoP as Demo past putting corruption on everything. Just remember that only having Corruption as a DoT to throw around makes us far from useless on multi target fights. Corruption gives +12 Demonic Fury per tick, meaning we will actually get insanely fast Meta's on multi dot fights, then we run in and Shadowflame/Immolation Aura rape everything.

    ---------- Post added 2012-03-06 at 10:55 AM ----------

    Quote Originally Posted by Jessicka View Post
    How is it annoying? Aside from the fact that Corruption itself generates Fury meaning you'll want to use it on as many things as possible, it's not really any different from multidotting on my SPriest - the dots just don't hit as hard.
    With annoying I meant that it currently feels worse than Destro multidotting since Demo runs with less haste. Immolate has a longer cast time, and Corruption doesn't really tick for all that much. Think annoying in terms of HZon'ozz as Demo. You run around putting dots up, but they don't do shit so you essentially feel useless. The new system will simply have us use corruption and get very fast meta's.

  10. #30
    Quote Originally Posted by Kildragon View Post
    In MoP, Warlock specs will have insane spec identity. Affliction will be using only drains and dots for damage. Demonology will focus even more on the proper use of Meta, and will have a very unique playstyle, even using a spell that summons a horde of imps. Destruction will go back to blowing things up.
    You said it exactly how i feel it : imho, spec identity is back at its best.
    I just wait to see how all of these will effectifley play out, and if it's fluent, i think i'll enjoy it.
    Wait'n'see, i don't despair yet.

  11. #31
    Quote Originally Posted by Kildragon View Post
    We then use spells like Demonic Slash and Carrion Swarm that drain our Demonic Fury. I'm not even sure if Meta will have a max duration or if it will drain Demonic Fury passively. It seems like we'll be using spells to drain it, meaning we could technically stay in Meta forever if we don't attack. Of course this is only speculation, but it seems like they want to give us far more control over when we pop Meta, and have it be more dynamic gameplay. I would actually love it if we didn't have a Demonic Fury cap, or have it be VERY high. This way we could hold Meta for a while, then have it up for a while when we need it.

    ---------- Post added 2012-03-06 at 10:50 AM ----------

    I just realized that the post you dog up was from Blizzcon, which was last year and WAY before Alpha testing. They seem to have reiterated on overall Warlock design quite a bit, so I'd say we can be certain that the gameplay they describe is not how it currently works in testing.
    There is absolutely nothing, whatsover, other than player speculation to suggest that at all.
    Quote Originally Posted by Kildragon View Post
    With annoying I meant that it currently feels worse than Destro multidotting since Demo runs with less haste. Immolate has a longer cast time, and Corruption doesn't really tick for all that much. Think annoying in terms of HZon'ozz as Demo. You run around putting dots up, but they don't do shit so you essentially feel useless. The new system will simply have us use corruption and get very fast meta's.
    How can you even know what stat weightings are going to be best for Demo? On the face of it, more haste = faster fury generation, especially if Corruption ticks are going to be generating Fury across multiple targets.

  12. #32
    Quote Originally Posted by Paraclef View Post
    the "when you have nothing to say" at its best..... next time put some ** ♥ !! *everywhere on your post, to push the truth beyond the shining stars, for the sake of argument.
    Which proves that neither of our posts were very constructive or insightful. But i dare think it isn't forbidden to post personnal impressions or positive hopes without having them being scrutinized for "validity of purpose"...
    Last edited by nipil; 2012-03-06 at 05:36 PM.

  13. #33
    Blademaster Ataro's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Kildragon View Post
    I'm fairly certain that the blue post is outdated by now. I'm not sure how high our Demonic Fury cap is, but we seem to be building it up quite fast.

    Soul Fire + 40
    Shadow Bolt + 25
    Shadowflame + 15
    Corruption + 12 per tick
    HoG + 25 per target

    We then use spells like Demonic Slash and Carrion Swarm that drain our Demonic Fury. I'm not even sure if Meta will have a max duration or if it will drain Demonic Fury passively. It seems like we'll be using spells to drain it, meaning we could technically stay in Meta forever if we don't attack. Of course this is only speculation, but it seems like they want to give us far more control over when we pop Meta, and have it be more dynamic gameplay. I would actually love it if we didn't have a Demonic Fury cap, or have it be VERY high. This way we could hold Meta for a while, then have it up for a while when we need it.

    This sort of makes it sound like Boomkins Lunar rotation

  14. #34
    I've been playing a warlock for a very long time and the crazy thing is, I've always hated the pet. I'm completely for this.

  15. #35
    I haven't looked at any lock talent trees for MoP yet, so I'm not quite sure what we're discussing here...

    ...but the thought of a completely petless warlock sounds pretty awesome to me. I'd dust mine off for that.

  16. #36
    Mechagnome Galdur's Avatar
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    locks used to sac pets in TBC and it worked just fine tbh....
    This time around just seems more polished, Imo its an option that allows for more flexibility in your playstyle.

  17. #37
    Herald of the Titans Kathranis's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jessicka View Post
    Not sure about this. A lot has been said about using it below the Fury cap, but having dug this up recently, it seems not to be the case.
    Originally Posted by Blizzard Entertainment
    Demonology will get Demonic Fury, you build up Demonic Fury and you metamorphosize when you max your Demonic Fury. More skills will be added to Demon Form, etc ...
    Obviously the model could have changed, but it's basically Impending Doom without the RNG - spam rotation better, get Meta faster.
    That's definitely outdated. You can now use Metamorphosis whenever you want, like a druid form, and it causes several abilities to transform. Some warlock abilities generate Demonic Fury and others consume it. It's extremely clear from how the tooltips are presented.

    We also do know that players will obviously have several of options for how they interact with their demons. For example...


    No Demon: Sacrificial Pact + Grimoire of Sacrifice + Demonic Rebirth
    - Revolves around damaging and sacrificing and resummoning your minion in order to buff your character directly.

    Upgraded Demon: Grimoire of Supremacy + Summon Wrathguard + Summon Abyssal/Terroguard
    - Revolves around having a few very strong demons and using them to enhance your DPS indirectly.

    Lots of Demons: Wild Imps + Grimoire of Service + Summon Infernal/Doomguard
    - Revolves around unleashing a constant march of demons or a small army of demons all at once.
    - Capable of summoning eight demons simultaneously.

  18. #38
    Quote Originally Posted by Jiraden View Post
    I haven't looked at any lock talent trees for MoP yet, so I'm not quite sure what we're discussing here...

    ...but the thought of a completely petless warlock sounds pretty awesome to me. I'd dust mine off for that.
    You're the guy these changes are aimed at.
    Quote Originally Posted by Dejin View Post
    I've been playing a warlock for a very long time and the crazy thing is, I've always hated the pet. I'm completely for this.
    Can I ask why you rolled a Warlock in the first place?
    Quote Originally Posted by Tric619 View Post
    locks used to sac pets in TBC and it worked just fine tbh....
    This time around just seems more polished, Imo its an option that allows for more flexibility in your playstyle.
    Because your choice in that tier of talents in and of itself is determined purely by which will pull the biggest numbers, making it the least flexible decision you'll make?
    Quote Originally Posted by Kathranis View Post
    That's definitely outdated. You can now use Metamorphosis whenever you want, like a druid form, and it causes several abilities to transform. Some warlock abilities generate Demonic Fury and others consume it. It's extremely clear from how the tooltips are presented.

    We also do know that players will obviously have several of options for how they interact with their demons. For example...


    No Demon: Sacrificial Pact + Grimoire of Sacrifice + Demonic Rebirth
    - Revolves around damaging and sacrificing and resummoning your minion in order to buff your character directly.

    Upgraded Demon: Grimoire of Supremacy + Summon Wrathguard + Summon Abyssal/Terroguard
    - Revolves around having a few very strong demons and using them to enhance your DPS indirectly.

    Lots of Demons: Wild Imps + Grimoire of Service + Summon Infernal/Doomguard
    - Revolves around unleashing a constant march of demons or a small army of demons all at once.
    - Capable of summoning eight demons simultaneously.
    The tooltips merely appear incomplete, and deliberately so as numbers and mechanics aren't finalised. There's no blue post anywhere that contradicts the original statement from Blizzcon. Only player speculation has determined that the ability is executable at will.

  19. #39
    Brewmaster smegdawg's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Kathranis View Post
    That's definitely outdated. You can now use Metamorphosis whenever you want, like a druid form, and it causes several abilities to transform. Some warlock abilities generate Demonic Fury and others consume it. It's extremely clear from how the tooltips are presented.
    Just because there is no information on the duration of Meta does not mean it is permanent ( i.e. shape shifting). We do not know if Meta will consume DF on its own along with the meta abilities. We do not know if there is a cooldown for meta. We do not know if meta has a limited duration regardless of DF.

  20. #40
    Scarab Lord roahn the warlock's Avatar
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    if i had to pick, Affliction would be the spec to not use a demon.. it doesn't really do anything.* furthermore, Destro will have a pet, demonic empowerment in the destro tree cuts the cast time of soulfire per hit. so it probably lines up with having embers.*
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