MOP Walocks "pet less"

[gakpad]

On potentially playing a petless class depending on talents:

I do not give any shits. It's not like I'm managing all my imp's casts right now or anything. It's a completely passive mechanic for all intents and purposes and I quite frankly wouldn't even notice if my imp was removed and had his damage rolled into mine. The only remotely way this could affect me is as demo, where I wouldn't have to felstorm before I swapped to my felhunter. If anything that's an improvement from a minor annoyance. Frankly I don't see how it matters. If taking the pet sac talent nets me the most dps, I'll do it without thinking twice and won't look back.

[Deleted]

I would say petless would be nice in some situations, be it pvp or certain bosses that don't favour pets(*cough* tendrils on spine, mutated corruptions on madness). All in all, we mustn't ALWAYS have a pet to be the classic locks. I mean lets face it, its not the same WoW we're used to playing like 7 years ago, right? It simply adds some flavour to have the choice to change your gameplay, even if it requires you to sacrifice your voluptuous succubus

---------- Post added 2012-03-06 at 11:27 PM ----------

Coz I Am A PURE AND I want to respec and spend 5000 gold to reforge every times.... just to underperform hybrids.... and then SPINE, Madness and Mind Sear come to my mind.

Thank you...

[Kildragon]

you can't be serious.... WTF ????

Post on your main.... sorry but you deserve it. Are you an arcane mage.... ?*

Demo AoE is so strong because of Shadowflame + Immolation Aura + Hellfire + Fel Storm. The only thing that will change is Hellfire will turn into Immo Aura. I know how to play my class and I have an idea of how Demo will work in MoP

---------- Post added 2012-03-06 at 07:21 PM ----------

There is absolutely nothing, whatsover, other than player speculation to suggest that at all.

How can you even know what stat weightings are going to be best for Demo? On the face of it, more haste = faster fury generation, especially if Corruption ticks are going to be generating Fury across multiple targets.

Demonic Leap activates Metamorphosis and it has a 10 second CD, suggesting that Meta will be able to be used whenever we have Demonic Fury. On top of that, Meta doesn't have a CD. So us being able to use Meta whenever we want to is based on the calculator, and it certainly makes sense. For the last part of that, yes I was speculating, and I was never claiming that I was right. I even said, "Of course this is only speculation", then you jump in trying to discredit me by saying this is all just speculation.

As for the Demo stat weights, I said "it currently feels worse than Destro multidotting". I was clearly talking about how annoying multi dotting is currently, not in the future. The only thing I said about MoP is that we will be generating Demonic Fury very very fast while multi dotting due to every single tick giving Demonic Fury.

You're just not a pleasant person and are clearly looking to argue.

---------- Post added 2012-03-06 at 07:23 PM ----------

I'd love to make a giant construtive post but I have already foreseen all of this....

1 post of a mage who want to roll a warlock alt > 100 posts of advanced warlocks....

You are clearly trolling, and are simply an idiot. You can't even formulate intelligent sentences, or make a point without sounding like an uneducated fool.

---------- Post added 2012-03-06 at 07:25 PM ----------

Because your choice in that tier of talents in and of itself is determined purely by which will pull the biggest numbers, making it the least flexible decision you'll make?

Considering how Blizz has to only balance three talents against each other, all they have to do is make the output for a fight over X duration the same, which really isn't that hard. At that point, players can choose talents based on the needs of the group or the fight.

---------- Post added 2012-03-06 at 07:29 PM ----------

Just because there is no information on the duration of Meta does not mean it is permanent ( i.e. shape shifting). We do not know if Meta will consume DF on its own along with the meta abilities. We do not know if there is a cooldown for meta. We do not know if meta has a limited duration regardless of DF.

I might have worded that wrong, I was simply suggesting that currently it looks like Meta will not have a CD and will be able to be activated whenever we have Demonic Fury. The duration, consumption of Demonic Fury, and other things are still up in the air, but from the info we have I think it is fair to assume that Meta will be activated at will.

[Xelnath]

Let's say Demonic Fury caps at 1000 Fury, drains at a rate of 6 per second and abilities cost 40 fury per second of cast time.

[Kildragon]

But you have forgotten Immolate... so yeah you know how to play....

And running everywhere with hellfire won't help, you won't be able to perform on multitarget, at least on fight like Valiona, Bethilac or Madness HM with only one dot.... Even for Yorshaj, running like an idiot in meta can't help to beat a shadow;p or a mage if you don't use immolate.


Yeah, i am clearly an idiot, because I have read every single line of every feedback since TBC, and I clearly don't understand how devs are thinking....*

You're clearly confusing current Demo design with MoP Demo design. I hate Demo multi target right now, because Immolate/Corrup don't hit hard enough, especially when compared to Afflic. Depending on the situation, and how close the multiple targets are together, the new multi target design in MoP will be amazing. Yes it won't be able to touch Affliction when the mobs are spread out, because we only have Corruption and not Immolate, so I guess I should have clarified.

Demo currently sucks for multi target dotting, but is amazing for AoE. In MoP, it will still be amazing for AoE, and be slightly less annoying for multi target because we will simply spread corruptions and then be in Meta for any multi targeting due to the very fast Demonic Fury gain.

[Orcindauh]

There should be a spec for all pet classes that can go pet less. (Hunters, Locks, DK's)
Example: Unholy DK's vs. Blood / Frost , Frost Mages vs Fire / Arcane. etc.

[Deleted]

As for the Demo stat weights

According to the most recent information about Demon Soul being replaced by Dark Soul, and the effect of Dark Soul being dependant on the spec and buffing stats directly (+30% haste for affliction, +30 mastery for demonology, +30% crit for destro), i might be bolt enough to say that we may run into a model where haste could be the primary stat for affliction, mastery could be the primary stat for demonology, and crit chance could be the primary stat for destruction. I won't dare estimate what the second stat order would be. Please note the many conditionnal mode wording in my post, but at least it seems logical to me.

[Jessicka]

Demonic Leap activates Metamorphosis and it has a 10 second CD, suggesting that Meta will be able to be used whenever we have Demonic Fury. On top of that, Meta doesn't have a CD. So us being able to use Meta whenever we want to is based on the calculator, and it certainly makes sense. For the last part of that, yes I was speculating, and I was never claiming that I was right. I even said, "Of course this is only speculation", then you jump in trying to discredit me by saying this is all just speculation.

The 10s Cooldown on Leap is meaningless, as the lack of cooldown on Meta. Like every other ability in game, if the requirements in terms of resources, stance etc aren't met, it cannot be used. There are so many issues with so many abilities tooltips, that it's better to assume they're incomplete and/or incorrect than to make inferences that are contrary to statements that have already been made. Don't get me wrong, I'd love for Meta to be usable on demand regardless of Fury, but it's better not to let wishful thinking get in the way of facts we're given.

As for the Demo stat weights, I said "it currently feels worse than Destro multidotting". I was clearly talking about how annoying multi dotting is currently, not in the future. The only thing I said about MoP is that we will be generating Demonic Fury very very fast while multi dotting due to every single tick giving Demonic Fury.

That's your opinion and you're entitled to it. I think it's fine, and don't see really how it could be made any different other than taking Soul Swap from Affliction or Havoc from Destruction. It'd be nice if it hit harder sure, but one spec can't be good at everything. It's not even certain that it would even be a nerf, I'd fully expect Immolate's damage to be rolled into Corruption afterall; the damage loss has to end up somewhere.

You're just not a pleasant person and are clearly looking to argue.

I'm not looking to argue at all. What I am doing, is saying that I feel they are making too many changes in order to fix things that aren't broken. While I accept there are issues that need fixing, a lot of other perceived problems which are being targeted are things that would be fine if other real problems were fixed; or are simply overweighted as issues and things taken too far to rectify them, or simply being fixed in completely the wrong way. For example the particular "problem" of encounters being unfavourable to pet classes should not I feel be being fixed by class designers, but rather by encounter designers who need to remember that 8 out of 30 (33 in MoP) specs use pets. I also do not feel that talent choices should be wasted on band aids for such situations when there's potential for something genuinely interesting to go in it's place (let's assume encounter designers learned their lessons and future encounters aren't detrimental to pet classes - what use is the talent then?). Another issue relating to Demonology is "too many buttons", again not a huge issue in my book, but certainly Shadowflame, Immolation Aura, and perhaps even Hand of Gul'dan could be regarded as superfluous and trimmed from the single target rotation without too much detriment to the playstyle; taking away Immolate and Incinerate as well is two steps too far and changes the playstyle too much in terms of breaking it down to a dot and a filler that changes according to stance, and removes the dynamism of the random proc which would otherwise break up the long periods of single filler spam. Those are my fully explained views on the matter. It's not 'seeking an argument', but you can't seem to find anything to counter them, so resort to insulting me directly. Nice touch.

Considering how Blizz has to only balance three talents against each other, all they have to do is make the output for a fight over X duration the same, which really isn't that hard. At that point, players can choose talents based on the needs of the group or the fight.

It's taken over 12 months for them to reach that point of balance, after being at a similar point 18 months ago and not making realistically a substantial number of changes from the previous iterations of the specs. What's coming are very substantial changes to all three specs; it would be highly unlikely given previous experiences, to see the level of balance we have between specs come anything close to what we have now for at least another 12 months after this goes live.

[Deleted]

I'd love to be a class without a 'pet', gief summon demons during a fight. Also gief a spell that does a large radius fiery blast around us, knocking others back.

Make it more interesting than "ABC" (always be casting). Because of this every dps class seems to feel the same.

[Deleted]

Hmm, I thought I wrote 'permanent pet'. I think the concept of demons could be a lot cooler, having spells that summon a demon for a short amount of time. Add some cool special abilities to each of the demons so they have a use for certain situations.*

Currently you lose a lot of DPS and abilities if your pet bugs out or dies.

[chaosdotz]

You guys excited to go "pet less"? Or rather frown on the idea. I see this term alot now on various warlock discussions regarding MOP and Iam kinda concerned, for now Iam gona talk destro and aff since iam sure demo petless wont be anyway viable.

Iam going out and say I hate the idea of being pet-less, Its ok they give us that option for certain fights, for example that option would be awsome at Alyzrazor flying, or Alakir p3

Iam afraid petless for aff/destro becomes the norm like it was at the end of TBC where you had no choise, even as destro less pet centric specs I like my pet in a RP way and the mechanics of it. I hope this gets decently balanced, but wow history says they cant, one always will be better look at Fury warrs 2h vs 1h DW they were never balanced. My option is that petless spec should always be inferior in DPS than a pet present one, this also opens another problem, those fights where we cant use pet and then spec the petless talent we will be subpar

It seems this petless situation, its just a carte blanche to the raid department so they can design raid content without pets in mind.

The moment I saw this talent it smelt bad for me, how they gona balance it, Iam sure most warlocks like and manage they pet well, while there are others that wouldn't mind to go petless, and then there are those players that hate warlocks mostly cause of us being a petclass(I know several ppl) and just love this talent so they can roll a petless warlock.

How is blizzard balance this? Make petless do less damge than a petable warlock, or make one of the specs rather petless, or worst make aff/destro petless via talent and Demo the only spec for petloving locks, its a tricky one for sure.

Oh i thought we can still use pets in the talents

[Hellfury]

Oh i thought we can still use pets in the talents

there is a talent that removes u pet and gives you %damage instead

[hungerus]

I would say being petless is fine for pve, but in pvp i rely on my demon just too much, esp in destruction.

[Buryit]

No I do not like this nor the GUY who makes these calls but will keep my thoughts quiet.

[Xelnath]

No I do not like this nor the GUY who makes these calls but will keep my thoughts quiet.

Who makes these calls?

[noaim]

Because your choice in that tier of talents in and of itself is determined purely by which will pull the biggest numbers, making it the least flexible decision you'll make?

By that reasoning, you should reroll to another class as soon as warlocks arent the top performer. If you play warlock because you enjoy it more than X class that pulls more dps, you can also spec whatever you enjoy the most, even if something else would be a slight dps increase.

[Revan Bane]

I for one am glad we have a choice again. I much appreciate being able to chose in which way I want to play my Warlock, rather than being forced into one cookie-cutter scenario. To me, this is what we should be, demons at our command to do with as we please and more choice to adapt and maximize our efficiency for certain encounters. They are not our "pets", they never were, and even though I am very fond of my disobedient possy, I will be happy to send them back to the void and use their powers at any time I please. Even if it wasn't in our contract.

[noaim]

On potentially playing a petless class depending on talents:

I do not give any shits. It's not like I'm managing all my imp's casts right now or anything. It's a completely passive mechanic for all intents and purposes and I quite frankly wouldn't even notice if my imp was removed and had his damage rolled into mine. The only remotely way this could affect me is as demo, where I wouldn't have to felstorm before I swapped to my felhunter. If anything that's an improvement from a minor annoyance. Frankly I don't see how it matters. If taking the pet sac talent nets me the most dps, I'll do it without thinking twice and won't look back.

Exactly, if you actually managed the pet a bit (bar the occasions where it is nothing but an annoyance, like Madness heroic, keeping it out of the parasite explosions) I could maybe (still not really, since it is still a choice to sacrifice it) see why some are so upset over this, but really, this is just a change that will be useful on some encounters and not so useful on others, and as I said before, if maximizing your dps triumphs playing what you enjoy, then by all means start whining about other classes performing better than locks so you cant play your lock etc. Now, if the difference is huge, I could see a point, but I highly doubt that.

[Jessicka]

By that reasoning, you should reroll to another class as soon as warlocks arent the top performer. If you play warlock because you enjoy it more than X class that pulls more dps, you can also spec whatever you enjoy the most, even if something else would be a slight dps increase.

Not really. I don't show up just to do DPS, the class offers much more than that, and many of those things we offer come from abilities our pets provide. Where would we have been on Rag without Felstorm and Axe Toss for example?

Exactly, if you actually managed the pet a bit (bar the occasions where it is nothing but an annoyance, like Madness heroic, keeping it out of the parasite explosions) I could maybe (still not really, since it is still a choice to sacrifice it) see why some are so upset over this, but really, this is just a change that will be useful on some encounters and not so useful on others, and as I said before, if maximizing your dps triumphs playing what you enjoy, then by all means start whining about other classes performing better than locks so you cant play your lock etc. Now, if the difference is huge, I could see a point, but I highly doubt that.

I refer you to my answer to your previous statement. Our pets do offer useful active abilities, and I trust myself as a player to be able to use them effectively in the same way I trust myself to deal with encounter mechanics that require active intervention, and to throw out a battleres if needed. If you're just about tunnelling DPS, and your RL never asks you do anything other than that and avoid fire, then sure it probably wouldn't make much difference. Otherwise, it's ending up in a similar situation to that prior to Cata where you were making the "choice" between Doom/Agony and Elements for your curse; and I think we can agree there that that wasn't a choice at all.

[smegdawg]

Someone brought up in a thread recently (can't remember if it is this one) that our Grimoire of Service pets may have even more useful abilities. The example the poster gave was the Void Lord's sacrificial shield "could" be raid wide.

Maybe the Observer(Beholder?) has an ability that prevents spell pushback like concentration aura.

The imp provides passive health regen as well as stam.

If that is the case and our improved pets provide more utility as well as damage, then I will only be using the Grimoire of Sac. when our pets bug out and can't attack the flying dragon or bird that is sure to exist in the next x pac.