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  1. #1

    Mark of the Legion WA vs DBM

    So my guild just started attempting mythic Archi P3, and some of the strategy videos we looked at recommend using a WA for Mark of the Legion. This is the one that we're all using. http://pastebin.com/pzD5HZuy

    The thing is, DBM also calls out positions for marks, melee left, ranged right, etc. The problem, is that the WA and DBM don't always agree with each other. What I'm wondering is if one is superior to the other? Does DBM pretty much just trivialize this mechanic, or does the WA have better functionality? Cause right now we're looking at disabling one or the other so we stop getting our soaking groups mixed up.
    If Goku's power level increases at the same rate till the end of DBGT as it does till the end of the Frieza saga, as a SS4 Goku would have a PL of roughly 939 Quinoctogintillion. For reference that is a 260 digit number. A PL of 14,600 is required to destroy an earth sized planet. There are about 2 nonillion earths worth of mass in the universe. That means SS4 Goku can destroy the universe about 32 Octosexagintillion times over. There's a reason they made Goku a god at the end of GT.

  2. #2
    Hey.

    I chose a weak aura for my guild when we progressed.

    We have used both and the only visible difference is how they sort the marks.

    Before saying this there are different weak auras that do different things. I know of a guilds weak aura that ensures 4 people are inside every soak by telling them where to go soak and sorts it so the marks in melee explode first.

    The weak aura my guild uses just makes it so that the marks in melee explode last.

    I believe this works better because it essentially means no one should ever be late to their markers. Imo its alot easier for melee to run backwards and ranged sideways to get to their positions than for a ranged to run into melee AND infront of the melee there in shorter time(4/5 seconds). There is alot more leeway for error this way and tbh making it as fool proof for your guild during progression is what is going to get you the kill quicker.

    I used to raid lead as a healer so i could easily see which groups had mark and the number of people and could call out Cds like barrier/slt or personals when neded. This is how we dealt with the rng of 3 people getting marks in the same group.

    That being said if you can solo a mark you probably should. Thats mages(cd then blink down), rogues(cloak then step), Spriests (disperse then grip back if you are quick enough). I dunno if hunters can. I assume so but how easy it is to disengage back to the platform is the hard part.

    You should make sure that if you use the weak aura people turn off the dbm/bigwigs announce in their settings and that everyone uses the same thing.

  3. #3
    Quote Originally Posted by Laurcus View Post
    So my guild just started attempting mythic Archi P3, and some of the strategy videos we looked at recommend using a WA for Mark of the Legion. This is the one that we're all using. http://pastebin.com/pzD5HZuy

    The thing is, DBM also calls out positions for marks, melee left, ranged right, etc. The problem, is that the WA and DBM don't always agree with each other. What I'm wondering is if one is superior to the other? Does DBM pretty much just trivialize this mechanic, or does the WA have better functionality? Cause right now we're looking at disabling one or the other so we stop getting our soaking groups mixed up.
    Just use boss mods and have each raid group alwasys go to a specific marker and marked person goes where DBM says.
    BURRFORCEONE | Jellosdk | Jellosmonk | Jellospally
    What a bunch of Shitbird tanks

  4. #4
    My guild uses the Mark of the Legion Helper addon.

    Not sure if there are any advantages to using it compared to DBM or the WA. But the main thing is to make sure that if your guild is using the addon or the weakaura that they disable the mark of the legion part of DBM.

  5. #5
    Save yourself from a mountain of pain and go by DBM. I don't know where to begin proving how much I have researched this subject, I have literally gone through every single option that exists, and we used some of them before we ended up to it. To make the story short, DBM was horrible before a few versions because it only gave marks, even if it gave them according to duration, however, recently, after a request I made to the DBM author, he added everything you need because it makes groups automatically and dynamically.

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by Jellospally View Post
    Just use boss mods and have each raid group alwasys go to a specific marker and marked person goes where DBM says.
    And how would you deal with a group that has 4 out of 5 getting a mark (the 1 guy left can't soak anything on his own)? The mechanic does not even get 2 ranged + 2 melee or anything predefined like that, it just goes randomly with the exception of tanks (unless they are the only ones left with fewer than 4 others alive) and I have a small suspicion that healers have a lower priority but we can't rely on anything like that.


    It's actually a very interesting subject if you pose the question "how am I going to deal with it if I have no addons for it"? If you do the first step of addons of getting the marks on people's heads very obviously shown - which might be done by the graphics of the encounter anyway so it's not a very big deal - you still have to probably use the durations of them. That would be plain hard core to do dynamically by verbal communication so some sort of UI aid is too good. Now, the soaking of others on those people, would probably need good players going "they need help there".

    It's generally one of the most hard core and interesting mechanics that exist in this game, if addons didn't cheese it, so, I don't know, it either needs the game to avoid them, or have a nicer UI for them. I think that would be the best option. They already do stuff like vehicle buttons and stuff. It would be cool to have things like a UI that sends people to spots by duration, e.g. their heads get on top of them a very bright color that denotes duration without requiring addons to set up marks (e.g. green explodes last, red explodes first, easy to remember) and the rest is to help soak.
    Last edited by tobindax; 2016-06-02 at 12:15 PM.

  6. #6
    Quote Originally Posted by Bougy View Post
    But the main thing is to make sure that if your guild is using the addon or the weakaura that they disable the mark of the legion part of DBM.
    This.
    Is the biggest time waster if not done.

  7. #7
    Quote Originally Posted by tobindax View Post
    And how would you deal with a group that has 4 out of 5 getting a mark (the 1 guy left can't soak anything on his own)? The mechanic does not even get 2 ranged + 2 melee or anything predefined like that, it just goes randomly with the exception of tanks (unless they are the only ones left with fewer than 4 others alive) and I have a small suspicion that healers have a lower priority but we can't rely on anything like that.

    We have never had an issue putting 2 melee in each front group and 1 tank on each side and then just putting healers/ranged in all the groups.

    We have never once had it pick 4 people in the same group and we've done it this way since progression.

    Even when we had more melee we just generally put Tank, 2 melee, 1 ranged + another ranged or healer. Depends how many healers but generally put them on the earlier hits so they can heal up before infernals.

    Mages can solo every single mark they get as long as they are arcane as well.
    Last edited by Jellospally; 2016-06-02 at 12:49 PM.
    BURRFORCEONE | Jellosdk | Jellosmonk | Jellospally
    What a bunch of Shitbird tanks

  8. #8
    Quote Originally Posted by tobindax View Post
    Save yourself from a mountain of pain and go by DBM. I don't know where to begin proving how much I have researched this subject, I have literally gone through every single option that exists, and we used some of them before we ended up to it. To make the story short, DBM was horrible before a few versions because it only gave marks, even if it gave them according to duration, however, recently, after a request I made to the DBM author, he added everything you need because it makes groups automatically and dynamically.

    - - - Updated - - -


    And how would you deal with a group that has 4 out of 5 getting a mark (the 1 guy left can't soak anything on his own)? The mechanic does not even get 2 ranged + 2 melee or anything predefined like that, it just goes randomly with the exception of tanks (unless they are the only ones left with fewer than 4 others alive) and I have a small suspicion that healers have a lower priority but we can't rely on anything like that.


    It's actually a very interesting subject if you pose the question "how am I going to deal with it if I have no addons for it"? If you do the first step of addons of getting the marks on people's heads very obviously shown - which might be done by the graphics of the encounter anyway so it's not a very big deal - you still have to probably use the durations of them. That would be plain hard core to do dynamically by verbal communication so some sort of UI aid is too good. Now, the soaking of others on those people, would probably need good players going "they need help there".

    It's generally one of the most hard core and interesting mechanics that exist in this game, if addons didn't cheese it, so, I don't know, it either needs the game to avoid them, or have a nicer UI for them. I think that would be the best option. They already do stuff like vehicle buttons and stuff. It would be cool to have things like a UI that sends people to spots by duration, e.g. their heads get on top of them a very bright color that denotes duration without requiring addons to set up marks (e.g. green explodes last, red explodes first, easy to remember) and the rest is to help soak.
    So as long as everything related to Mark of the Legion is turned on, DBM should handle it just fine without any extra fussing?

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by Jellospally View Post
    We have never had an issue putting 2 melee in each front group and 1 tank on each side and then just putting healers/ranged in all the groups.

    We have never once had it pick 4 people in the same group and we've done it this way since progression.

    Even when we had more melee we just generally put Tank, 2 melee, 1 ranged + another ranged or healer. Depends how many healers but generally put them on the earlier hits so they can heal up before infernals.

    Mages can solo every single mark they get as long as they are arcane as well.
    How do arcane mages solo soak?
    Last edited by Laurcus; 2016-06-02 at 01:40 PM.
    If Goku's power level increases at the same rate till the end of DBGT as it does till the end of the Frieza saga, as a SS4 Goku would have a PL of roughly 939 Quinoctogintillion. For reference that is a 260 digit number. A PL of 14,600 is required to destroy an earth sized planet. There are about 2 nonillion earths worth of mass in the universe. That means SS4 Goku can destroy the universe about 32 Octosexagintillion times over. There's a reason they made Goku a god at the end of GT.

  9. #9
    Quote Originally Posted by Laurcus View Post
    How do arcane mages solo soak?
    Ginvis > Blink
    Evanese > Blink

    Repeat

    Mark only hits for like 1.2m or something anyone with enough DR can live it(long as they have a way to stay on platform)
    BURRFORCEONE | Jellosdk | Jellosmonk | Jellospally
    What a bunch of Shitbird tanks

  10. #10
    Moderator Djriff's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jellospally View Post
    Ginvis > Blink
    Evanese > Blink

    Repeat

    Mark only hits for like 1.2m or something anyone with enough DR can live it(long as they have a way to stay on platform)
    You can also use Alter Time.
    Monks and warlocks can use their tele provided they survive the hit (I think monks talent can).
    Rogues can shadowstep, hunters can disengage, a druid can leap, warriors can leap too, and a shadow priest can reverse life grip. I think that's it.

    OT: We use Potm's Motl client. I prefer it since it keeps all the groups even. You can fix the people not getting to their marks on time by stacking up in the middle of the area loosely before marks go out. I highly recommend you disable that part in DBM if you're using a WA for it as it will mess with the raid markers.
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  11. #11
    They both work fine, just make sure whatever you're using everyone has it and has everything else disabled.

  12. #12
    We use a Weakaura in my guild that we got from a different guild during progression, and have stuck with it for one simple reason: It's a millisecond slower than bossmods at giving out marks.
    This is ideal because it means it doesn't matter *which* addon someone is running, it doesn't matter if someone has DBM/Bigwigs giving marks turnt on and are contradicting, it doesn't matter if someone else has a conflicting weakaura - the one I run will give out marks quick enough after the "contradicting" marks may (or may not) have gone out that you literally will not notice it, and the only thing you have to do is notice "which mark is actually on me" and run to the marker.

    (And to those saying "Just remove assist lol" - some of our trials come in with fancy weakauras that sort their marks based on what their old guild used to do, such as sorting them depending on time left, which is fine [but entirely pointless unless your raiders has an aversion to getting punted towards the middle rather than straight back] - but when a trial is yelling out "GO TO STAR!!!" despite actually being marked purple, and despite not having assist, it'll confuse - streamlining it so "Go for the mark on your head, I don't give a shit about your addons or weakauras, just go for the mark on your head" is all I need to explain, makes it a TON easier).

  13. #13
    Quote Originally Posted by Laurcus View Post
    So as long as everything related to Mark of the Legion is turned on, DBM should handle it just fine without any extra fussing?
    Basically DBM is fully automatic and does everything needed and with options on top. The people with debuffs get marks above their heads, the debuffs get the mark types according to duration of the debuff, and the rest of the raid is told in the middle of the screen where to go to. The raid leader has a drop down menu to choose which mark explodes first.

  14. #14
    Quote Originally Posted by tobindax View Post
    Basically DBM is fully automatic and does everything needed and with options on top. The people with debuffs get marks above their heads, the debuffs get the mark types according to duration of the debuff, and the rest of the raid is told in the middle of the screen where to go to. The raid leader has a drop down menu to choose which mark explodes first.
    Unless DBM is different to Bigwigs. They only mark them in a certain order: Bigwigs is Star > Circle > Dia > Green(might be green > dia i forget). You decide where they blow up and no they don't say where to go if you don't have the mark. Neither does the Weakaura.
    BURRFORCEONE | Jellosdk | Jellosmonk | Jellospally
    What a bunch of Shitbird tanks

  15. #15
    Quote Originally Posted by Jellospally View Post
    Unless DBM is different to Bigwigs. They only mark them in a certain order: Bigwigs is Star > Circle > Dia > Green(might be green > dia i forget). You decide where they blow up and no they don't say where to go if you don't have the mark. Neither does the Weakaura.
    You have missed episodes. DBM does everything now. To not describe it again, read again what you quoted on how it works.

  16. #16
    Quote Originally Posted by tobindax View Post
    You have missed episodes. DBM does everything now. To not describe it again, read again what you quoted on how it works.
    Eh figured you were sorta asking if thats how it worked w/e. I don't need to read it again I knew what you meant now that you said it its obvious lol.

    I guess thats a decent thing for people who need hand holding I guess lol. Seems almost too much for that mechanic tbh.
    BURRFORCEONE | Jellosdk | Jellosmonk | Jellospally
    What a bunch of Shitbird tanks

  17. #17
    Quote Originally Posted by Jellospally View Post
    a decent thing for people who need hand holding I guess lol.
    Actually you made me question how the ability works. If you have killed the boss so many times (you seem to have various alts with multiple kills) and you've never had that issue, maybe the ability does have some kind of avoidance of people in the same raid group. Because I can't remember well that factor when I raid, I tried to see if the Replay tab of Warcraft Logs records groups but the author told me that he can't see that information in the logs of the game.

    But, it's very unlikely. Are you sure you don't send people more dynamically? Some players just have a good sense to help groups with no soakers.

    The Wrath ability of manno is definitely very likely to give 4 on the same group. I put only soakers into group 1 and we often get 3 or 4 of them.

  18. #18
    I recently coached a group working on Archi on whether to use the WA or pre-assigned marks. Having done both strats, they have strengths and weaknesses.

    WA Pros -
    • You'll always have enough players to soak in any given group
    • Generally speaking, if handled by all players properly it leads to more organization with the mark explosions, thereby reducing the likelihood of players getting fragged by another mark group
    • The WA gives you a raid marker on top of giving you huge text telling you where to stand


    WA Cons -
    • Everybody is moving so the likelihood of one dumbass ruining your pull is much greater
    • The requirement of proper positioning of the mark targets is greater

    Pre-assigned groups is easier and eliminates many of the Cons from the WA while opening the possibility for one group getting shafted if every player in that group ends up with a mark. The number of times I've seen this happen (even during progression) has been very, very low, and if the player dealing with it knows to use a large CD they can often survive solo soaking.

    So really, it depends on what's best for your group. If you're a raid group which likes micro-managing things while relying on mechanical skill from your raiders, the WA is fine and will suit you perfectly. If you're a raid which prefers simple and (sometimes) messy then pre-assigned groups with DBM should fit the bill. The latter is far easier, imo... and for a group progressing on Archi this late in the tier it's probably the safest way to go.
    Last edited by otaXephon; 2016-06-03 at 02:19 PM.

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  19. #19
    Whichever you go with, its really about drilling in the rules for it so your raiders remember.

    We use the weakaura that has a number for each point so 1/2/3/4 and we've drilled in which marker is which colour. I really like the weakaura though, does the job well enough and its fairly simple. The plus point actually being that with numbers its different enough from most other raid mechanics everyone tends to pay a bit more attention to it.

  20. #20
    High Overlord Amantino's Avatar
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    Tried many different ways, and a proper WeakAura is by far the best. But if you don't have anyone willing to share you a good WeakAura to deal with the marks, DBM/BigWigs way should be okay. The addon (MarkOfTheLegionHelper or something) is the worst option, from my experience.

    Quote Originally Posted by Shadohw View Post
    (...)
    I know of a guilds weak aura that ensures 4 people are inside every soak by telling them where to go soak and sorts it so the marks in melee explode first.

    The weak aura my guild uses just makes it so that the marks in melee explode last.

    I believe this works better because it essentially means no one should ever be late to their markers. Imo its alot easier for melee to run backwards and ranged sideways to get to their positions than for a ranged to run into melee AND infront of the melee there in shorter time(4/5 seconds). There is alot more leeway for error this way and tbh making it as fool proof for your guild during progression is what is going to get you the kill quicker.
    What you're saying is correct. Blowing the back markers first is the best way. Back left first because of dance pattern, then back right. It also allows the healers to get back in position and top people before infernals starts landing. Having 4 soaking each mark is not as important anymore due to bigger hp pools from Valor though, but I agree there should always be balance in soaking groups, and this was important on progress.

    Quote Originally Posted by otaXephon View Post
    WA Pros -
    • The WA gives you a raid marker on top of giving you huge text telling you where to stand
    This depends on what WeakAura you use. Of the 3 WA's I've tried, only one of them (the worst one) actually gave me a marker.

    One thing I've noticed is that guilds in general prefers using marks and world marks to indicate where they should go. You get a green triangle on your head, or on your screen - you run to the equivilent world marker. But then what if you join a new guild, and they use different markers? Suddenly you need to learn new positioning, but also need to forget your old positioning thats imprinted in your brain after hundreds of wipes.
    I find using numbers to be a lot better, like in this kill video (clicky). This is what we do in our main raid, and the only 'downside' is people not understanding how to read a number, or being too dumb to untick an announce in BigWigs. (This is also a much better way of dealing with seeds on Zakuun, or Marked for death on Blackhand). It's logic, everyone knows how to count, but everyone doesn't know that green marker is back left. 1-2-3-4-5 is logic, yellow-purple-green-orange is not.
    Another way of dealing with it, is by having it written out to you in text where you should go, like in this kill video (clicky). The main reason I prefer numbers over this is because it's more minimalistic, less info to process.

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