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  1. #1
    Herald of the Titans
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    H Maiden scaling

    Just a simple question - how much damage is stacked hammer supposed to do? I haven't seen anyone really complain about the boss, so perhaps it's only with larger raid sizes, but with 15/15 split, people are getting smashed for 3.5 million, which is nearly 90% of their hitpoints. Seems somewhat absurd for Heroic, especially since "intended" gear level is probably lower than what we have now. I really doubt Heroic was intended to use damaga reduction/+hp for every single strike.

    Not only that, but quickly checking logs, it seems there's barely any difference if there are 10 people soaking or 15 - they still get hit for 3.5 mln. It's as if the hammer doesn't properly split between larger amount of people and instead does more total damage per hit. By that logic, it makes more sense to let tanks solo soak and res them if they fail, rather than risk death because constant ticking damage reduced people to 89% and they get one shotted.

    And the damage is already crazy during the first smash, where nothing happens yet and all the players can soak, so "people need to learn the colors hurdur" does not apply.
    Last edited by KaPe; 2017-06-23 at 10:28 AM.

  2. #2
    The damage in large raid sizes is messed up for Maiden, Avatar, and KJ heroic.

    Your options are as follows:
    - Cut people
    - Use CDs
    - Get more gear/traits - ergo more stamina
    - Wait for "hotfix"
    Panthea/Cetraben (Armory Link) - Guild Master + Raid Leader - <Catalyst> Tarren Mill (EU-Horde) - Currently Recruiting: Click for more info

  3. #3
    From my experience on that boss its actually fine. Potentially a little over tuned but fine tbh. It emphasizes the need to get in to stack for the hammer on an otherwise very simple fight. Im pretty sure you need everyone in your half of the raid in that im sure its designed so otherwise you could literally do fuck all in p1s. The constant ticking damage doesnt really mean shit because healers can just top the side tanking the hammer before it rather than pointlessly healing the group not taking the hammer and who arent in danger of immediate death

    Blizzard usually do 1 of 2 things. Make something really complicated or make it hit really fucking hard. This is one of those really hard moments.

    On a side note not sure if you could replicate this but during one of our progression pulls on this boss the tank taking the hammer got mass instability accidentally by a melee he went into the well as the hammer came out. The boss either didnt do the hammer or she did it into the well but im sure as hell sure there was 0 raid damage. Being able to replicate this would make the fight so damn easy.
    Last edited by Shadohw; 2017-06-23 at 10:56 AM.

  4. #4
    There is nothing wrong with Avatar/KJ scaling, it's just maiden which hits for +3.5M with the cone attack even when you have 15 people per side soaking it, however you can simply skip half of the cone casts by tanks just solo soaking them with cooldowns.

  5. #5
    Quote Originally Posted by Shadohw View Post
    On a side note not sure if you could replicate this but during one of our progression pulls on this boss the tank taking the hammer got mass instability accidentally by a melee he went into the well as the hammer came out. The boss either didnt do the hammer or she did it into the well but im sure as hell sure there was 0 raid damage. Being able to replicate this would make the fight so damn easy.
    We had the same thing happen, tank got bomb some way, jumped in during hammer cast and it didn't do anything

  6. #6
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    Quote Originally Posted by Shadohw View Post
    From my experience on that boss its actually fine. Potentially a little over tuned but fine tbh. It emphasizes the need to get in to stack for the hammer on an otherwise very simple fight. Im pretty sure you need everyone in your half of the raid in that im sure its designed so otherwise you could literally do fuck all in p1s. The constant ticking damage doesnt really mean shit because healers can just top the side tanking the hammer before it rather than pointlessly healing the group not taking the hammer and who arent in danger of immediate death
    Getting hit for 90% on heroic would be "fine" if I didn't see some random logs in smaller raids where the damage is significantly lower, not even reaching 3 millions per hit. There's a big difference between being left with 40% hp and comfortably surviving any extra damage, and having a mere 10% where a single dot tick can finish you off.

    It's not like this is some complicated mechanic, it just hits so hard that we might as well try solo soaking. Same risk of dying, but it's much easier to stack single target cds rather than raid ones.

  7. #7
    Quote Originally Posted by FonskeHond View Post
    We had the same thing happen, tank got bomb some way, jumped in during hammer cast and it didn't do anything
    Yep happened to me too, not sure if you can actually control and force spawn bomb on the tank at correct timer to do it though?

  8. #8
    survivable with 0 CD's ... whats the problem?

    The mechanic is one that slowly picks people off if you lose people early. The less people to soak the higher the threshold for getting gibbed.

  9. #9
    It does seem awfully harsh on the damage intake for heroic on large raid sizes, but alternatively, you can also just add an obscene amount of healers; It's a 8 minute enrage timer and most split raids are killing her between 5 and 6 minutes with 5-6 healers. Adding another two just so you can CD absolutely everything and spam people up even quicker/make sure they're topped is an entirely viable way to approach the boss, and has been done in previous tiers as well (remember Thok, Fel reaver and Shekzeer? All super intense first week of heroic healing wise, but with little to no enrage timers to care about). Our first split raid had a prot paladin tank who could solo a few smashes so we only had to use 6 healers to cover everything, but the second raid added a seventh as we didn't have that option.

    The general knee-jerk reaction to any encounter is to drop healers and add DPS to make the fight doable, because in most scenarios, that's what you'll lack; DPS to complete some phase within W/E soft or hard enrage you need to do. It's sort of nice that they occasionally throw the "add healers till encounter seems doable"-type in as well.

  10. #10
    Quote Originally Posted by KaPe View Post
    Just a simple question - how much damage is stacked hammer supposed to do? I haven't seen anyone really complain about the boss, so perhaps it's only with larger raid sizes, but with 15/15 split, people are getting smashed for 3.5 million, which is nearly 90% of their hitpoints. Seems somewhat absurd for Heroic, especially since "intended" gear level is probably lower than what we have now. I really doubt Heroic was intended to use damaga reduction/+hp for every single strike.

    Not only that, but quickly checking logs, it seems there's barely any difference if there are 10 people soaking or 15 - they still get hit for 3.5 mln. It's as if the hammer doesn't properly split between larger amount of people and instead does more total damage per hit. By that logic, it makes more sense to let tanks solo soak and res them if they fail, rather than risk death because constant ticking damage reduced people to 89% and they get one shotted.

    And the damage is already crazy during the first smash, where nothing happens yet and all the players can soak, so "people need to learn the colors hurdur" does not apply.
    It is manageable but I do believe it is a little on the strong side. I think we did it with 27 people and it was a very significant amount of damage. You for sure will need to have people use Personals and Healing CDs ect. Also making mistakes with Unstable soul will have a very tough impact on your ability to soak the cleave. The fight is a very simple fight but it is very punishing with mistakes. Ultimately I do think the damage is a big high for a heroic mechanic but obviously that is just my opinion. It is still very doable just difficult.

  11. #11
    Yep, with 30 people the damage of the smash is totally out of place, with 24 people it does exactly half the damage, is just dumb.

  12. #12
    Even for normal 30 man it's 2,5 times the magic damage Mythic Maiden has,and it's even more absurd in heroic.It's weird how it's so easy to solo soak or 2 man soak it in 10 man in both normal and heroic,but 15 players get torn apart by it in 30 man raids
    It almost feels like they overlooked that the raid is split and tuned it to be shared by the whole group

  13. #13
    Maiden in general seems like one of the few fights that is actually easier with smaller raid sizes. It took us about an hour to down her last night on Heroic (this we had 22 and 3/4 healers were shammies lol), but I gotta say... it was a pretty fun fight. Definitely felt that "kill the boss" adrenaline rush at the end.

  14. #14
    The boss in general seems harder on larger raid sizes, as is Avatar. Once we cut down from 25 to 15 people we downed her in two pulls much more easily. Not because we did a lot more DPS but simply because the abilities just seemed less punishing. And of course fewer people means fewer dummies that can trigger bombs.

  15. #15
    For large raid sizes, it's probably much easier to alternate stacking raid cooldowns and tank cooldowns for smashes. Tank + 1 other (say a Cloaked rogue) is an easy soak for the tank with some CDs. No other place to use them anyways.

    - - - Updated - - -

    Doing heroic now, the hammer has been nerfed for ~27 people. Only drops to about 25% health now.

  16. #16
    Quote Originally Posted by Squishei View Post
    For large raid sizes, it's probably much easier to alternate stacking raid cooldowns and tank cooldowns for smashes. Tank + 1 other (say a Cloaked rogue) is an easy soak for the tank with some CDs. No other place to use them anyways.

    - - - Updated - - -

    Doing heroic now, the hammer has been nerfed for ~27 people. Only drops to about 25% health now.
    That was the case on wed already, perhaps your team didn't screw up that attempt and actually soaked.

  17. #17
    Herald of the Titans
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    Quote Originally Posted by Dakushisai View Post
    That was the case on wed already, perhaps your team didn't screw up that attempt and actually soaked.
    Funny, with 15 people soaking, we were getting hit for 3.5mln. I don't know how you plan to have more soakers to reduce that damage, but it definitely wasn't "the case on wed already".

  18. #18
    On average, it hits for 2.75M now, compared to 3M on Thursday. Shuffles a bit based on bombs, but seemed slightly less compared to Thursday which is just enough to make a huge difference on the boss.
    Last edited by Squishei; 2017-06-24 at 07:21 PM.

  19. #19
    wait, 3 million is a lot? If your at the appropriate raid ILVL average for Tomb, you should have around 4-5 million HP so I don't see the problem here.

  20. #20
    Our average hits with 25 were 2-3 million last night. It didn't seem like an issue there, not sure if they've nerfed it or anything.

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