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  1. #1

    Can raiding content really last as long as it has in the past?

    Back in WOTLK or BC, raids lasted a fair bit but there was one and then 2 difficulties.

    There wasn't the feeling of running the same raid over and over in the same week.

    Now if you have alts, there are so many different difficulties.

    For the average player, you end up doing LFR, Normal then heroic on your alts and sometimes also your main at the start of a new raid.
    To me it ends up making a raid get old a lot quicker.

    With Ulduar there was progression each week and it felt meaningful. With current content, heroic just feels a little tighter than Normal but it's more or less the same bosses. Mythic a fair bit harder but yet again, a very similar boss fight.

    I don't see this current style of raiding to hold up as well as it did in the past.

  2. #2
    Dreadlord Morbownz's Avatar
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    Tier progression, it's non-existent today. Also much slower gear progression.
    In TBC I didn't have time to dungeon run all day nor did I want to, they took too long and required a fair bit of concentration so I had to manage my time just to stay productive. Do I work on professions? Do I rep Grind for pre-raid gear? Do I go back to group quests for rewards? Do I farm gold for my mount? Do I farm rep to get item enhancements? Do I PvP for gear?
    I much prefer this way to the new system. Blizzard decided it was bad somewhere in WotLK.
    Lets all go to the Blizz-store, Lets all go to the Blizz-store, Lets all go to the Blizz-store to buy ourselves some treats. Delicious things for geeks, the Pixels can't be beat. The Achievement points are just dandy, them sparkling mounts are quite handy. So Lets all go to the Blizz-store and buy ourselves a treat.

  3. #3
    Yes
    /10chars

  4. #4
    Stood in the Fire Ispamx's Avatar
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    I completely agree with you. By the time I get to content on my preferred difficulty (Heroic) I have already seen it twice. It doesn't feel new or epic getting to a new room of the raid and seeing the environment and figuring out the trash (generally boss fights were researched prior), it just feels like the difficulty knob is slightly higher, because that is exactly what it is. I remember the first time I got to see the Shattered Walkway of Ulduar, or Sindragosas terrace in person. Now it is all just stale content before I have even begun it.

    Where we are now, I can't see Blizzard trimming the number of difficulties, since people react poorly when something they once had is taken away, so it looks like this is here to stay. Although if I had it my way, we would go back to the two difficulty model of Cataclysm, maybe with flex for Normal (now Heroic) and 20 man only Heroic (now Mythic). Although if that were to happen, there would actually need to be outdoor content for people that can't commit time to scheduled raiding. If those players couldn't raid, they would have almost nothing to do in WoD, even more so than it is now.
    Last edited by Ispamx; 2015-05-17 at 03:03 PM.

  5. #5
    Herald of the Titans Seriss's Avatar
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    It could. If they gated it as heavily as they used to. But people would whine about that too. No matter what Blizz does, there will be whining. So I'll rather have it the way it is because that's better for recruitment.

  6. #6
    Brewmaster Thete's Avatar
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    There is never need to do three difficulties on the same character. If you are progressing heroic, then you farm normal but LFR shouldn't have anything for you.

  7. #7
    Let me boil down the complaint.

    Blizzard made raids more accessible to everyone. This allows your alts to get gear, and gives you a variety of progression. Your alts like LFR with some normal, your main is doing heroic, and you are getting burned out?

    The issue isnt the number of difficulties, its the desire to get every toon you have the highest gear it can. If there was only 2 difficulties, then your alts would be stuck in dungeon gear (maybe) or most likely quest blues. Your alts wouldnt be raiding, your main would be on normal/heroic if you were lucky to get a guild group going or joined a pug.

    Stop burning yourself out, you dont need to run the gear treadmill on every toon. All 11 of your alts don't need the legendary ring. All 11 dont need to have that challenge mode weapon. And all 11 do not need to have epics.

    It is your choice to run these raids every day of the week, no one is forcing you. What happened to making friends or creating fun events? A blingatron death ring? A race to see who can get across nagrand the fastest? A fishing challenge for the first person to get a pheramone fish?

    Remember, this is not World of Raids. Use your imagination and go play.

  8. #8
    Herald of the Titans Otiswhitaker's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by mmouser View Post
    Let me boil down the complaint.

    Blizzard made raids more accessible to everyone. This allows your alts to get gear, and gives you a variety of progression. Your alts like LFR with some normal, your main is doing heroic, and you are getting burned out?

    The issue isnt the number of difficulties, its the desire to get every toon you have the highest gear it can. If there was only 2 difficulties, then your alts would be stuck in dungeon gear (maybe) or most likely quest blues. Your alts wouldnt be raiding, your main would be on normal/heroic if you were lucky to get a guild group going or joined a pug.

    Stop burning yourself out, you dont need to run the gear treadmill on every toon. All 11 of your alts don't need the legendary ring. All 11 dont need to have that challenge mode weapon. And all 11 do not need to have epics.

    It is your choice to run these raids every day of the week, no one is forcing you. What happened to making friends or creating fun events? A blingatron death ring? A race to see who can get across nagrand the fastest? A fishing challenge for the first person to get a pheramone fish?

    Remember, this is not World of Raids. Use your imagination and go play.
    The problem, really, so to speak, is that when you make practically the only meaningful content in the game raids, this is what happens. Burn out hits extreme levels because that's all there is to do, really, save for old content and PVP.

    Best option is to just get up to the point you want to get to in a raid, and unsub until there's a new patch. That's apparently how Blizzard wants you to play.

    Kind of pigeon holes the socials into playing into levels they don't wanna play, and the non-socials into being finished really, really fast.

  9. #9
    You make a lot of assumptions about how other people feel.

    I know this is equally anecdotal, but I remember many complaints (from my guild and beyond) about burnout from raiding Naxx-10 and Nax-25. This continued all the way through the end of ICC, with each tier having a 10 and 25-man version that did not share lockouts (and the long ICC tier).

    People burn themselves out, and then blame Blizzard "because it's there".

    "When in doubt, slap it with your big Penance." - Naér, Stormreaver

  10. #10
    Quote Originally Posted by Tennisace View Post
    Back in WOTLK or BC, raids lasted a fair bit but there was one and then 2 difficulties.
    I you won't consider very strictly tuned encounters like Muru or too random mechanics (single poorly placed defile can screw this try) then only reason for "raids lasted a fair bit" was artifical gating.

    Like Mother Shahraz encounter without resist gear was close to impossible but as soon as everyone got resist gear encounter become pretty much trivial.

    Like ICC 1 wing per month (or was it 2 months?) gating or TotC one boss per week gating.
    Last edited by Serissa; 2015-05-17 at 07:45 PM.
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  11. #11
    The Insane det's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Tennisace View Post
    Back in WOTLK or BC, raids lasted a fair bit but there was one and then 2 difficulties.
    Actually it didn't last "long". World firsts happened fairly quickly and ...saaay..BT was already on farm for the best guilds for 9 months before SWP hit. Just don't let yourself be fooled by artificial gating....

    The average guild ofc still takes a long time o clear mythic or heroic. Not sure why a quick normal clear or a semi-fast heroic clear spoils it for you in Mythic, but then again I was used to run places again and again and again when there was only one difficulty.

    Quote Originally Posted by Serissa View Post
    I you won't consider very strictly tuned encounters like Muru or too random mechanics (single poorly placed defile can screw this try) then only reason for "raids lasted a fair bit" was artifical gating.
    And even M'uru was down in 4 days....
    Last edited by det; 2015-05-17 at 07:53 PM.
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    ... there are lots of different types of players, with different amounts of time to play, and different tastes for the content and difficulty and time commitment they want to give to any of those pieces of content. The person that plays for an hour or so a few times a week is playing the same game as the person that plays five hours every night.....
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  12. #12
    Multiple difficulties is fine. Having to do more than one isn't.

    Imo normal, heroic and mythic should all drop the exact same gear, share lockout and just be tuned differently. Higher difficulty would also award more loot from each boss.

  13. #13
    Quote Originally Posted by Embriel View Post
    Multiple difficulties is fine. Having to do more than one isn't.

    You dont have to clear multiple difficulties, i get that point if you are raiding cutting edge top 50, probably even only top 10 and above but below that usually the only point thats is restricting you from killing bosses is your own skill.

  14. #14
    If I were running it multiple times a week on multiple toons on multiple difficulties, I'd probably get tired of it really quickly too.

    Unless you're in a hardcore guild, I don't really see the point of gearing up alts to the teeth, esp if you're going to complain about what you're making yourself do. It's like listening to a kid on a sports team complain about having to go to practice and games. Ahh, then don't?

  15. #15
    Quote Originally Posted by Dole4011 View Post
    If I were running it multiple times a week on multiple toons on multiple difficulties, I'd probably get tired of it really quickly too.

    Unless you're in a hardcore guild, I don't really see the point of gearing up alts to the teeth, esp if you're going to complain about what you're making yourself do. It's like listening to a kid on a sports team complain about having to go to practice and games. Ahh, then don't?
    Well, in Wrath, alts were pretty much a way to unwind after you were done with progression in a tier. A chance to play a different class or a different role while you did farm because it was fun. Nowadays, there are a few too many hoops to jump through for it to really be worth it. I didn't play in Cata but I'd wager this came about due to the legendary questlines and just the overall poor catch-up mechanics(LFR replacing dungeon grinding for points)

  16. #16
    Quote Originally Posted by Tennisace View Post
    I don't see this current style of raiding to hold up as well as it did in the past.
    it cant - people have way to much experience from past 11 year - any new data is analyzed by theorycrafters almost imidiately after it lands on ptr - bosses have deep analizys of their mechanics and numbers including videos of how fight look like before patch even goes live - there is too much info out there for content to last long. Class/spec reaserach is detailed to 0.001% so any changes are imidiately know to playerbase before they even go live and playerbase adapts to them before they see them in game.

    Sadly alternative would be locking players out of ptr and releasing content bugged like hell like it was in vanilla/TBC.

    content just dont have chance against all twich streamers& yutube mechanics videos combined with gameplay experience from 11 years.

    Content is good - only fault of blizzard is huge part of playerbase has become to good at this game over years.
    Last edited by kamuimac2; 2015-05-18 at 03:50 PM.

  17. #17
    Quote Originally Posted by kamuimac2 View Post
    Content is good - only fault of blizzard is huge part of playerbase has become to good at this game over years.
    Yes and no...

    The players have changed... who was once a student, now has graduated, has a family and a full time job. He wants to play, but doesnt want to spend 15 hours a week raiding. And thats a lot of people who just want to see the new content.

    Sure, before you would have to wait 1-2h looking in trade chat for a tank, then pugging with people from your own realm -and started a real community, so to speak-. And that was great, but if you didnt had the time, it would suck and you will never see the content (how many people killed C´Thun? for example). A 1 dificulty raid made people to work hard, and not everyone was able to do that.

    The idea to solve this? different raids with different dificulties, as in a scaling raid tears. Thats basically TBC: You started in a 10 man, and moved up to the harder content. It was easy to find a group for Kara, but the rest was hardly accesible until the end of the xpac (dont get me started on sunweel!).

    Thats why they tried to fix it in WotLK: almost same content (so everyone can see it) with various dificulties. Everyone had a piece: the casuals, the hardcore... But a lot of people (mainly the hardcore) complained about the "WoW communism": everybody now looks the same, with the same tier gear, and having such gear didnt made you stand up -as everyone has it-. That feeling that once vanilla had like "ZOMG he is full tier 2" was completelly gone. As it makes the content more accesible, some things get sacrificed, and it is that balance that is hard to obtain. Raid finder helped not to spam trade chat, but killed the realm-communities. And at the time MoP came, it has gone too far.

    With WoD they reduced all the mess MoP had been raidwise, no more flex: LFR for the casuals/alts, normal and heroic for the semi-casuals, and mythic for people who like the challenge. Many people dont care about mythic (why should they?), as the content is the same. Maybe LFR is too easy -and it is- and blizz should stick with normal/heroics/mythic. But even so, many casual players would not be able too see the full content on normal. Thats why LFR opens a lot later than normal modes. And it makes sense.

    You cant make everyone happy, but you can make happy a lot of players who are casuals and dont care about having the best gear. IMO LFR dificulty is too easy, and doesnt contributes too much to the player expirience of "beating the game"... but its there for a reason.

  18. #18
    Quote Originally Posted by Embriel View Post
    Multiple difficulties is fine. Having to do more than one isn't.
    Good job you don't need to then.

    I think I've touched LFR once this expansion when I missed a farm night and needed to make up my legendary junk collection quota.

    The difficulty you're progressing on + 1 under it for farm night is all you should need.

  19. #19
    Moderator Nobleshield's Avatar
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    Honestly no. I personally think that the concept of raiding has gotten stale and will change in the future; maybe not in WoW but as MMOs evolve I see raiding as we know it going to complete side content instead of the focus. Basically I see large group stuff being in the open world, think Rift's zone events or world bosses at the most, and smaller group or even solo content becoming the norm (ideally scalable so you have the choice to do it all yourself and be the badass hero or get some friends and do it harder for slightly better things)
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  20. #20
    Quote Originally Posted by Nagassh View Post
    Good job you don't need to then.

    I think I've touched LFR once this expansion when I missed a farm night and needed to make up my legendary junk collection quota.

    The difficulty you're progressing on + 1 under it for farm night is all you should need.
    Nearly all mythic guilds also ran normal mode to complete tier sets. Normal, heroic and mythic are all relevant to mythic raiders tbh, not running normal the first 1-2 weeks gimps you a fair bit.

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