Possibility of largest city in US history to file for Chapter 9 bankruptcy

[Grauk]

You do realize when you say things like a CEO cutting benefits too keep his pay, you sound ignorant. I'm not sure if you understand how large corporations work but rarely does the CEO make such decisions, its usually Shareholders and the Board of Trustees. Also as far as taxes go the wealthiest 1 percent of the population earn 19 per*cent of the income but pay 37 percent of the income tax. The top 10 percent pay 68 percent of the tab. Meanwhile, the bottom 50 percent—those below the median income level—now earn 13 percent of the income but pay just 3 percent of the taxes. These are proportions of the income tax alone and don’t include payroll taxes for Social Security and Medicare. And as far as heavy taxes on these CEO's do you know what happens? The same thing that happens when we tried to over tax major corporations, THEY MOVE AWAY. They can move to Indonesia, the philippines, or China, Reincorporate, and pay a fraction of the taxes, worker costs, and overhead and make twice the profit, so before you start whining consistently about the rich think about what happens when they move their companies away and instead of you getting reduced pay you get nothing. Btw on the subject if the city goes bankrupt their pensions end anyways. Do you think the money just magically appears in your bank account? When the City goes bankrupt, they'll sell of assets to pay current workers, necessary maintenance costs, and reincorporation fees if they attempt to reform as a new city. they wont give a damn about the police/firemen/old public workers that had a chance to help but were to greedy and shortsighted. As well as the fact that Americans have an extremely light tax burden that HAS FALLEN over time, Quite significantly, so instead of being shortsighted and so freaking entitled why don't you try contributing, instead of whining and protesting that the rich people are bad. Links/math from The Treasury department/Statistics from the same on request.

[stabetha]

Looking at GOP policy with regard to workers I'm wondering how these aren't the same things.

The GOP is the party of "right to work", safety deregulation, union busting, and worker protection deregulation. The unions are standing up for workers by siding with the Dems because the GOP does not have their best interests at heart, and if the Dems aren't great either, they're better for the people the unions represent by a damn sight.

when has anyone in gop stated they were against or shown they were for safety deregulation or worker protection deregulation unless you mean worker protection as in a company being forced to keep lazy unproductive workers like unions do.

[Wells]

when has anyone in gop stated they were against or shown they were for safety deregulation or worker protection deregulation

http://www.shrm.org/Publications/HRN...Workplace.aspx

[Atrea]

Thread title is somewhat misleading. I thought it was going to be a thread about NYC declaring bankruptcy.

[eriseis]

You do realize when you say things like a CEO cutting benefits too keep his pay, you sound ignorant. I'm not sure if you understand how large corporations work but rarely does the CEO make such decisions, its usually Shareholders and the Board of Trustees. Also as far as taxes go the wealthiest 1 percent of the population earn 19 per*cent of the income but pay 37 percent of the income tax. The top 10 percent pay 68 percent of the tab. Meanwhile, the bottom 50 percent—those below the median income level—now earn 13 percent of the income but pay just 3 percent of the taxes. These are proportions of the income tax alone and don’t include payroll taxes for Social Security and Medicare. And as far as heavy taxes on these CEO's do you know what happens? The same thing that happens when we tried to over tax major corporations, THEY MOVE AWAY. They can move to Indonesia, the philippines, or China, Reincorporate, and pay a fraction of the taxes, worker costs, and overhead and make twice the profit, so before you start whining consistently about the rich think about what happens when they move their companies away and instead of you getting reduced pay you get nothing. Btw on the subject if the city goes bankrupt their pensions end anyways. Do you think the money just magically appears in your bank account? When the City goes bankrupt, they'll sell of assets to pay current workers, necessary maintenance costs, and reincorporation fees if they attempt to reform as a new city. they wont give a damn about the police/firemen/old public workers that had a chance to help but were to greedy and shortsighted. As well as the fact that Americans have an extremely light tax burden that HAS FALLEN over time, Quite significantly, so instead of being shortsighted and so freaking entitled why don't you try contributing, instead of whining and protesting that the rich people are bad. Links/math from The Treasury department/Statistics from the same on request.

CEO's won't move away if their business headquarters is still in the country. There's also the issue of finding executive talent, safety for workers. An increase in tax is not a sole factor in determining whether a company or executive will move. It's hyperbolic to say it is.

And I dislike how some CEO's are rich based on abuse to the general population: banks, Mosanto, Wal-Mart come to mind.

[swineflu]

the government should spend more. there's no reason people should have to make do with less. the problem is the republicans who have worked to always always always reduce funds for government. they are the reason your communities are falling apart.

---------- Post added 2012-03-06 at 02:33 AM ----------

the problem is the corrupt republican ideology of "deregulation and privatization". have you slapped a repug in the face today?

[titan972]

Looking at GOP policy with regard to workers I'm wondering how these aren't the same things.

The GOP is the party of "right to work", safety deregulation, union busting, and worker protection deregulation. The unions are standing up for workers by siding with the Dems because the GOP does not have their best interests at heart, and if the Dems aren't great either, they're better for the people the unions represent by a damn sight.

Clearly you don't know what "right-to-work" is. Right-to-work means that regardless of your chosen profession, you CANNOT be compelled to join a union or pay dues to the union if you opt to not become a member. This is something that everyone should be able to agree about. If unions are so great and do so many good things for society...then lets have a little social experiment and see how many people actually choose to join one.

Say I want to become a teacher, does that mean that I should be forced to join a union and pay their dues even if I disagree with their politics? The answer is no...and if you don't agree with that then you're just wrong...

[Clevername]

This is why I fucking HATE modern unions. ESPECIALLY government unions.

New Jersey is in the midst of a war against the Unions as we try to stay afloat ourselves.

I feel for you, that's why Boeing moved their new facility to my state in SC, we southerners abhor unions and our state government crushes nuts anytime there's a hint of unionization. Unions are so outdated and counter productive.

[Dacien]

Thread title is somewhat misleading. I thought it was going to be a thread about NYC declaring bankruptcy.

I've changed the title. Sorry for the confusion.

---------- Post added 2012-03-06 at 11:35 AM ----------

I feel for you, that's why Boeing moved their new facility to my state in SC, we southerners abhor unions and our state government crushes nuts anytime there's a hint of unionization. Unions are so outdated and counter productive.

And some people simply refuse to hear anything contrary to unions. It's startling. To some, unions are always good, always beneficent. And if numbers show that unions have negotiated for unsustainable pay and benefits that are demonstrably too generous, bankrupting a city, all you get is blowback.

[Clevername]

This is the shit the union in WA state tried to pull when Boeing decided to move to SC.
Boeing Lawsuit

More companies (Walmart, BMW, Boeing) are figuring out that the south is the place to avoid all this bullshit and we welcome the industry with open arms as it's breathing new money into our states.

[noteworthynerd]

And some people simply refuse to hear anything contrary to unions. It's startling. To some, unions are always good, always beneficent. And if numbers show that unions have negotiated for unsustainable pay and benefits that are demonstrably too generous, bankrupting a city, all you get is blowback.

Coincidentally, my co-worker and I were just talking about this sort of thing. We were having a conversation about outsourcing and she made the comment that unions have a lot to do with why companies choose to move manufacturing overseas. I had never thought about it, but I agree with her; unions started out with good intentions (safer working conditions, competitive wages, etc), but they are so large and powerful now that they are actually detrimental to the people they're supposed to be helping by forcing wages/pensions so high that companies (or the government) have to choose between massive layoffs or outsourcing to stay in business.

Of course, unions aren't the only thing to blame (companies going public and having stockholders to please is also a major contributor), but the super-powerful unions certainly aren't helping.

[Dacien]

When you think of lobbying, you usually think of corporations. But the numbers were released today on California lobbying last year, and of the hundreds of millions spent on lobbying, guess who came out as the big spender? The California Teachers Association.

[Laize]

CEO's won't move away if their business headquarters is still in the country. There's also the issue of finding executive talent, safety for workers. An increase in tax is not a sole factor in determining whether a company or executive will move. It's hyperbolic to say it is.

And I dislike how some CEO's are rich based on abuse to the general population: banks, Mosanto, Wal-Mart come to mind.

::Rolleyes::

By that logic, every customer of Monsanto (Read: Everyone in the USA) and Wal-Mart and banks are also abusing the general population.

---------- Post added 2012-03-07 at 12:32 AM ----------

This is the shit the union in WA state tried to pull when Boeing decided to move to SC.
Boeing Lawsuit

More companies (Walmart, BMW, Boeing) are figuring out that the south is the place to avoid all this bullshit and we welcome the industry with open arms as it's breathing new money into our states.

Right to Work states are slowly attracting business and they're reaping quite the benefits from doing so it would seem.

[Maneo]

Just wanted to share this, regarding the Union for Federal Employees.

Now before I start let me state, I make a comfortable living and I am not bitching and whining that I deserve more ... just want to put things in perspective.

I work as a defense contractor in a specialized field with 11 years experience, a Bachelors in a related field to my employment as well as a Associates. Currently working on another associates that is less directly related to my career field but could still be considered related.

I make 65k a year, with 600 plus dollars going out a month in medical insurance for me and my family. I receive 3wks paid time off a year including sick days. Currently I do not contribute to my 401k cause honestly I don't think it is really going to matter 10 yrs from now.

My job security if you could call it that is iffy at best, every year ESPECIALLY with the current administration I am in jeopardy of loosing my job, cause the only place the Democrats are willing to cut money is defense. Never mind the fact that only 4% of our GDP is spent on defense and even if we brought defense spending to 0% it wouldn't make a damn bit of difference in our current economic bind.

Ok sorry that is another subject all together.... anyhow .. Job security iffy.

Now on to a good friend of mine who basically does the same job ... but as a GS (government service).

He has 8yrs experience in the same specialized field, no bachelors, and is just starting to work on his associates in a completely unrelated field.

He makes 90k a year, pays next to nothing for insurance, and contributes next to nothing for his pension (by the way he will be able to draw on that in 12 yrs cause of his 8yrs of military service). He has one 5 weeks off a year, and as much sick time as needed. It basically will take a act of congress for him to loose his job, he mentions fellow employees falling asleep on the job, not producing ... screwing around etc ... They still have jobs, still get raises etc

Now he is my friend and I don't want to see him loose his pay or benefits or anything but honestly the government workers salary and benefits need to be brought down to the equivalent in the civilian world. They also need to be able to loose a job for being screw ups.

---------- Post added 2012-03-07 at 01:03 AM ----------

the government should spend more. there's no reason people should have to make do with less. the problem is the republicans who have worked to always always always reduce funds for government. they are the reason your communities are falling apart.

---------- Post added 2012-03-06 at 02:33 AM ----------

the problem is the corrupt republican ideology of "deregulation and privatization". have you slapped a repug in the face today?

I am not even going to bother .. going into how wrong this statement is.

Both parties are to blame for our current economic situation... both the demoncrats and repubelicans can't stop spending the tax payers money.

[Dacien]

It really makes me happy to see that people understand, Maneo. I'm usually swimming upstream here. Thanks for posting.

[Extrazero8]

And some people simply refuse to hear anything contrary to unions. It's startling. To some, unions are always good, always beneficent. And if numbers show that unions have negotiated for unsustainable pay and benefits that are demonstrably too generous, bankrupting a city, all you get is blowback.

And some people simply refuse to hear anything positive about unions. It's startling. To some, unions are always bad, always a bane. And if numbers show that unions have negotiated for sustainable pay and benefits while executive pay and benefits are demonstrably too generous, bankrupting a company, all you get is corporate apologists.

I hate to break this to you but unions are normally beneficial to both employee and employer. The break down happens when one side or both start seeing enemies instead of partners. If times are good everyone should share in the reward. If times are tough then everyone should share in concessions.

It's childish and moronic to think that one party is entirely responsible for the downfall of an organization.

More on topic.

Per (http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2012/0...n_1311339.html)
"Stockton faces a deficit of $20 million to $38 million the next fiscal year, which begins this summer, and financial projections anticipate similarly large shortfalls for the following two fiscal years. A large portion of those deficits are tied to bond payments from redevelopment projects and underfunded liabilities for retired city employee health care"

Sounds like the local leaders bet the employee pension and health care on city improvements.

First, the local leaders should not have risked that much money. Second, the city employees, especially those making 100k a year, should not have asked for benefits that do not allow the city to make appropriate improvements.

Had both parties been more open to communication, and not played with other peoples money, then this would not have happened.

From the huffingtonpost link it looks like the police force has been cut by 25% and murders are up. So great job for all parties involved.

[Dacien]

And some people simply refuse to hear anything positive about unions. It's startling. To some, unions are always bad, always a bane. And if numbers show that unions have negotiated for sustainable pay and benefits while executive pay and benefits are demonstrably too generous, bankrupting a company, all you get is corporate apologists.

If you're referring to me, nothing of the sort is applicable. I just happen to live in a state that is sinking under the crushing weight of union lobbying, and as such, I spend my time fighting them where it's right, not apologizing for them when they're doing okay.

[Clevername]

Right to Work states are slowly attracting business and they're reaping quite the benefits from doing so it would seem.

Yep, they're realizing that the cost of living is low and the local governments welcoming. I also failed to mention we just got an Amazon.com distribution center as well all these are counteracting some if the industrialization that we lost in textiles in the late 80's. Dare I say, The South is Rising Again?... it's a joke.

[Ralidyn]

It's real simple.

If money going out is more than money coming in, you lose money. That means money will eventually run out.

Most Americans do this
Most Governments do this
Most unions do this

I would think that people, after years of schooling, would have learned this...on day one because if you live outside your means you will eventually have to pay for it.

The "bad" economy is not an excuse.
"It's more complicated than that," isn't an excuse

Unions are poison in our society. I guess I'm just dumbfounded by how many people can't seem to understand such a basic concept. A 10 year old kid can understand this.

Edit:
Thank you Maneo! You nailed it on the head. Finally an person who can see the issue(s).

[majesta]

And it will be official soon. Stockton is filling for bankruptcy. A sad day for those of us who live here.

http://sacramento.cbslocal.com/2012/...cy-protection/