1. #2001
    Quote Originally Posted by Finangus View Post
    1: Getting punched alone isn't justification for shooting someone in self-defense: however, if you're on the ground, and your attacker has you pinned down, is continuing to attack you, then it may be justified. At that point they're no longer just trying to punch you to shut you up or prove a point, but are instead attempting to seriously injure you.

    2: If you consider eye-witness testimony to be fact, then yes.

    Also, here's a real fact that should be considered: Treyvon Martin was 6"3'. Zimmerman is 5"9'. Treyvon was also an American football player, which would probably place his weight (given his height) in the 190-230 lb range. Potentially more, depending on the position he played.

    If Martin did attack Zimmerman, and if he did pin him to the ground and continue to punch him and slam his head into the concrete, then it's understandable how Zimmerman would have felt his life was in jeopardy. Zimmerman would have been under attack from someone much larger, fit, and likely stronger than himself.

    Again, at this point it's all pure conjecture, since what really happened on that night is heavily muddied by conflicting witness testimonies and the media circus constantly parading out conjecture and opinion as hard facts.
    Not a fact at all. . .but who's checking those right? Zimmerman is about 230lbs and Martin was about 150lbs.

  2. #2002
    Mechagnome Venteus's Avatar
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    Zim shouldn't of followed him. However if this kid did in fact assault Zim, then the act is justified. Hopefully the investigation returns fruitful.

    This in no way makes me question my support of armament laws, dead kid or not I would like that option to defend myself.
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  3. #2003
    Quote Originally Posted by Deonto View Post
    God you are stupid. Like, I don't know how to reply to your post with out some hint of anger towards you. You're just stupid.

    People who want to, or wish to to discus this topic should be objective and look at everything. Instead you're just defend this guy blindly(yes, it is blind) with out taking the other side of the topic into discussion at all. Or at least what I've seen from your recent posts.

    I mean, what if it actually went down like this:

    Zimm: "Get the fuck out of here"

    Tray: "Leave me alone, I'm just heading home"

    Zimm: "Leave, now(pushes Tray)"

    And then the fight breaks out. What if it happened that way? You don't know, the other side of the story is dead. Idiot. Speculations are stupid.

    And another thing, what the hell. People saying he was getting his head bashed in for a minute? What the fuck, a minute is a long time. How long can you survive getting your head bashed on concrete. The answer: Not long. Obviously waay over exaggerate. He didn't even need medical care. So stupid to try and defend him with saying that. Only an idiot would believe that.

    <Infracted>
    Only someone with no real idea for discussions resorts to personal attacks.

    The fact you have become so emotionally involved in this, shows me you lack an unbiased viewpoint, something you say I lack, yet I have offered nothing buy what the evidence shows, and have constantly shown people what that evidence is.

    You say speculations are stupid, then start speculating. uh.....okay
    Last edited by Droids; 2012-03-27 at 11:20 PM.

  4. #2004
    Dreadlord Marimba's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by katsung47 View Post
    Who is in self defense? A man with a gun and actively provocated a search, or a man without weapon on his way home?

    This case rouses a question. If people encounter a stranger with a gun to search him, does he has the right to self defend himself? In this case, a murderer said he killed for self defense. That opened the door to bandit to rob people without any risk. If he failed, he could kill the victim then claim he is self defense. That is the point.
    Invent stuff much?
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  5. #2005
    Quote Originally Posted by Isuckatpvp View Post
    So, random stranger with a gun approaches me with a hostile attitude questioning me about why I'm in the area that I'm perfectly allowed to be in, I can't defend myself.

    However, if I have a gun, confront someone who I think is suspicious after I've called the police, and then kill him after he punches me, that's ok.

    Glad I understand.
    Took you this long to understand the law? ffs no wonder our country is going down the crapper.

  6. #2006
    Quote Originally Posted by katsung47 View Post
    Who is in self defense? A man with a gun and actively provocated a search, or a man without weapon on his way home?

    This case rouses a question. If people encounter a stranger with a gun to search him, does he has the right to self defend himself? In this case, a murderer said he killed for self defense. That opened the door to bandit to rob people without any risk. If he failed, he could kill the victim then claim he is self defense. That is the point.
    I don't know too many murderers that call police to come check out someone they are about to murder, nor cry out for help in residential neighbor for close to a minute before wanting to murder someone.

  7. #2007
    Quote Originally Posted by whyusocrazy View Post
    Took you this long to understand the law? ffs no wonder our country is going down the crapper.
    Guess the solution is that I carry a gun at all times just in case someone I think is suspicious decides to break the law by defending themselves. That way I can kill them as I'd be defending myself.

    Again, glad I understand.

    ---------- Post added 2012-03-27 at 04:19 PM ----------

    Quote Originally Posted by Droids View Post
    I don't know too many murderers that call police to come check out someone they are about to murder, nor cry out for help in residential neighbor for close to a minute before wanting to murder someone.
    Well I know of one idiot who decided to do just that and ended up killing someone.

  8. #2008
    Quote Originally Posted by Isuckatpvp View Post
    Guess the solution is that I carry a gun at all times just in case someone I think is suspicious decides to break the law by defending themselves. That way I can kill them as I'd be defending myself.

    Again, glad I understand.

    ---------- Post added 2012-03-27 at 04:19 PM ----------

    Well I know of one idiot who decided to do just that and ended up killing someone.
    And what happened? Why would you leave that out?

  9. #2009
    Quote Originally Posted by Droids View Post
    And what happened? Why would you leave that out?
    What happened where and what? He called the cops, was told to stay in his car, decided to confront someone, ends up killing him because he didn't listen to the dispatch. Does that about cover it?

  10. #2010
    Quote Originally Posted by Isuckatpvp View Post
    Guess the solution is that I carry a gun at all times just in case someone I think is suspicious decides to break the law by defending themselves. That way I can kill them as I'd be defending myself.

    Again, glad I understand.

    ---------- Post added 2012-03-27 at 04:19 PM ----------

    Well I know of one idiot who decided to do just that and ended up killing someone.
    If they punch you first and you're in one of these stand your own ground states then yes. Hell I would even argue in every state there is a case.

  11. #2011
    Quote Originally Posted by Isuckatpvp View Post
    What happened where and what? He called the cops, was told to stay in his car, decided to confront someone, ends up killing him because he didn't listen to the dispatch. Does that about cover it?
    Really, I need to ask?

    What happened to the person who killed someone?

  12. #2012
    Quote Originally Posted by whyusocrazy View Post
    If they punch you first and you're in one of these stand your own ground states then yes. Hell I would even argue in every state there is a case.
    Do you really believe this situation is what they were looking to create the law for? Honest question.

    ---------- Post added 2012-03-27 at 04:28 PM ----------

    Quote Originally Posted by Droids View Post
    Really, I need to ask?

    What happened to the person who killed someone?
    According to him or the police? Because the guy who actually CAN enforce laws said he didn't believe Zimmerman's story. Further, if he was having his head slammed into concrete for minute, he either has the strongest head ever created, or someone is lying. Further, his injuries were so bad the police decided they'd question him for a few hours before getting him medical treatment. . .down at the station. Sure sounds like he was in danger of losing his life to me.

  13. #2013
    The Lightbringer KingHorse's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Isuckatpvp View Post
    What happened where and what? He called the cops, was told to stay in his car, decided to confront someone, ends up killing him because he didn't listen to the dispatch. Does that about cover it?
    Can we stop it with the "THE COPS ORDERED HIM TO LEAVE TRAYVON ALONE!" lie? Because, as you may not know, it didn't happen.

    The 911 operator (who is not an officer of anything at all) told him "They don't need you to do that" when he said he was following the kid. That is not an order.

    So, in conclusion, a person with no authority to give orders made a very noncommittal statement that he was doing something that didn't need to be done. Not even that he shouldn't do it, just that it didn't need to be done.

    Can we stop it now?
    I don't argue to be right, I argue to be proven wrong. Because I'm aware that the collective intelligence of the community likely has more to offer to me by enlightening me, than I do to an individual by "winning" an argument with them.
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  14. #2014
    Even though someone died as a result of this situation, it's important how it plays out and the public opinion over it, because protecting gun rights and the ability to use them is important.

    It's better to be allowed to carry and use firearms and never have to use them, than to be barred from carrying and using them and not having one when you need it. Criminals will always have access to illegal firearms, and if we take away the right for law abiding citizens to carry and use them in self defense, we give the upper hand to nefarious individuals.

  15. #2015
    Dreadlord Marimba's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Isuckatpvp View Post
    According to him or the police? Because the guy who actually CAN enforce laws said he didn't believe Zimmerman's story. Further, if he was having his head slammed into concrete for minute, he either has the strongest head ever created, or someone is lying. Further, his injuries were so bad the police decided they'd question him for a few hours before getting him medical treatment. . .down at the station. Sure sounds like he was in danger of losing his life to me.
    Where did you get the minute figure? Once or twice would have been enough for me.
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    I just realized the meaning behind your avatar.

    /shiver

  16. #2016
    Quote Originally Posted by Isuckatpvp View Post
    Do you really believe this situation is what they were looking to create the law for? Honest question.
    Stand your ground doesn't apply here.

    Zimmerman didn't shoot Trayvon while "standing his ground."

    Zimmerman shot Trayvon while Trayvon was on top of him bashing his head into the concrete for close to a minute while Zimmerman was calling out for help.

    Standing your ground is an action you take pre-emptively before any physical violence happens, and you believe there will be.

    Self Defense is an action you take after there is already a physical assault occurring.

  17. #2017
    Quote Originally Posted by KingHorse View Post
    Can we stop it with the "THE COPS ORDERED HIM TO LEAVE TRAYVON ALONE!" lie? Because, as you may not know, it didn't happen.

    The 911 operator (who is not an officer of anything at all) told him "They don't need you to do that" when he said he was following the kid. That is not an order.

    So, in conclusion, a person with no authority to give orders made a very noncommittal statement that he was doing something that didn't need to be done. Not even that he shouldn't do it, just that it didn't need to be done.

    Can we stop it now?
    For real? If you want to play the semantics game, feel free to. I think any reasonable person would understand that "they don't need you to do that" was not someone making a suggestion to not exert themselves. It was her being as polite as possible and telling him to "stay the **** in your car".

    ---------- Post added 2012-03-27 at 04:35 PM ----------

    Quote Originally Posted by Marimba View Post
    Where did you get the minute figure? Once or twice would have been enough for me.
    How about the post below yours? Will that suffice? People are just making **** up.

    ---------- Post added 2012-03-27 at 04:36 PM ----------

    Quote Originally Posted by Droids View Post
    Stand your ground doesn't apply here.

    Zimmerman didn't shoot Trayvon while "standing his ground."

    Zimmerman shot Trayvon while Trayvon was on top of him bashing his head into the concrete for close to a minute while Zimmerman was calling out for help.

    Standing your ground is an action you take pre-emptively before any physical violence happens, and you believe there will be.

    Self Defense is an action you take after there is already a physical assault occurring.
    Whatever man. I'm already done with you folks and I just started. Keep moving your goalposts.

  18. #2018
    Quote Originally Posted by Isuckatpvp View Post
    Further, his injuries were so bad the police decided they'd question him for a few hours before getting him medical treatment. . .down at the station. Sure sounds like he was in danger of losing his life to me.
    The legal requirement doesn't have grey areas about how much threat there is, or the likelihood of death, just that a reasonable person could have felt their life was in danger. That's an important distinction, because a reasonable person would assume that if you asked an assailant to stop hitting you, and they do not, they are going to continue beating you until one of two things happen: they are stopped by someone else, or you die from the attack. According to his recount of the events, his calls for help went unanswered. At that point, it is reasonable to assume your life is in danger, and self defense up to and including deadly force is the only option left.

    Unless you've been attacked by someone intent on doing you harm, it's easy to say "oh man what a wimp his life wasn't in danger." However, you don't know the mental state of the person beating you, or what their intentions are. If you think they are going to stop at some point, and just take it, the risk of being wrong is your life.

  19. #2019
    Bloodsail Admiral Duravian's Avatar
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    OP posted a vid by the Young Turks. From that moment on, I knew this thread was 100% liberal biased.
    "The Thread Ender" - No seriously, whenever I enter a thread, I end it. Wtf guys, is it something I said?

  20. #2020
    Quote Originally Posted by Isuckatpvp View Post
    For real? If you want to play the semantics game, feel free to. I think any reasonable person would understand that "they don't need you to do that" was not someone making a suggestion to not exert themselves. It was her being as polite as possible and telling him to "stay the **** in your car".

    ---------- Post added 2012-03-27 at 04:35 PM ----------

    How about the post below yours? Will that suffice? People are just making **** up.

    ---------- Post added 2012-03-27 at 04:36 PM ----------

    Whatever man. I'm already done with you folks and I just started. Keep moving your goalposts.
    Go figure, when you confront someone with facts, they fold and make snide remarks.

    Take it easy bro.

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