1. #1001
    Quote Originally Posted by Primaliron View Post
    It is a stupid law the way it is written. While I don't think you should have to flee. It is silly to not have a thorough investigation when a life is taken.
    Earlier I posted how justifiable homicides tripled ever since they modified the self defense laws in Florida. They really need to give that law a second look.

    Maybe this case will draw more attention to it?

  2. #1002
    Quote Originally Posted by Purlina View Post
    Earlier I posted how justifiable homicides tripled ever since they modified the self defense laws in Florida. They really need to give that law a second look.

    Maybe this case will draw more attention to it?
    Why does it need a second look? Florida is a big state and they had a total of 40 justifiable kills in a year. Any law that keeps people from going to jail for protecting their lives, families and property is good in my book. The law shouldn't apply here as Zimmerman was not attacked, he stalked and attacked this kid. Self defense doesn't happen when you go looking for a fight.

  3. #1003
    Quote Originally Posted by Xeones View Post
    Why does it need a second look? Florida is a big state and they had a total of 40 justifiable kills in a year. Any law that keeps people from going to jail for protecting their lives, families and property is good in my book. The law shouldn't apply here as Zimmerman was not attacked, he stalked and attacked this kid. Self defense doesn't happen when you go looking for a fight.
    The way the law is worded enables you to pick a fight and shoot in self defense...

    (Provided that you don't attack first, and in some cases you can attack first if you feel your life is in danger)

    I never said that Florida shouldn't have a self-defense law, it just needs tweaking.
    Last edited by Purlina; 2012-03-21 at 01:51 PM.

  4. #1004
    Brewmaster Daedelus's Avatar
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    Firearm-related death rate per 100,000 population:

    US: 4.14
    UK: 0.07

    This is despite still retaining that well-known deterrent capital punishment in several states (/sarcasm). There's really no debate to be had. The "guns don't kill people, people kill people" is totally bogus. If I encounter some nutter on a Saturday night, or some vigilante that decides I look suspicious, the worst I can expect is to get knifed, and guess what? You can't knife me if I'm running away from you or more than about 4 feet away from you.
    The only people who ever get shot in the UK is 'disrespected' gang members trying to emulate their cousins in south central LA.
    Last edited by Daedelus; 2012-03-21 at 02:03 PM.

  5. #1005
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    Quote Originally Posted by Daedelus View Post
    Firearm-related death rate per 100,000 population:

    US: 4.14
    UK: 0.07

    This is despite still retaining that well-known deterrent capital punishment in several states (/sarcasm). There's really no debate to be had. The "guns don't kill people, people kill people" is totally bogus. If I encounter some nutter on a Saturday night, or some vigilante that decides I look suspicious, the worst I can expect is to get knifed, and guess what? You can't knife me if I'm running away from you or more than about 4 feet away from you.
    The only people who ever get shot in the UK is 'disrespected' gang members trying to emulate their cousins in south central LA.
    Idd those in favor of guns always point out how more people are getting stabbed in other countries but i would be far more safe against a guy with a knife than a guy with a gun

  6. #1006
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    Quote Originally Posted by Purlina View Post
    The way the law is worded enables you to pick a fight and shoot in self defense...
    I'm pretty sure the correct wording is "makes it possible for". NOT enables. Because I do not see how it ENABLES me for instance to go pick a random fight and kill someone. Probability for wanting to do it before the law == 0%, Probability for wanting to do it after the law == 0%.

    No sane person would use this law to kill someone. To get away with (planned and inevitable) murder? - maybe.
    Insane person does not need no legal "enabler" nor a way to get away with the murder.

    You could make a point that some murderers would theoretically be able to get away with murder - but it still worth it. Better let a criminal go, than send an innocent to jail.

  7. #1007
    Well I could walk up to some random dude and start a fist fight.

    Then, when he starts beating me up, I pull out my gun and shoot him in self-defence.

  8. #1008
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    Quote Originally Posted by Cattaclysmic View Post
    i would be far more safe against a guy with a knife than a guy with a gun
    No you wouldn't, realistically speaking. If someone is up to kill you - the tool doesn't matter. Danger is equal. Only brutality differs (and duration of a kill - i.e. your suffering, imagine being clubbed to death). It won't be a fair duel, you know. Perp will stab you from behind or during a brawl or however he can in a sudden attack. He doesn't have to kill you by stabbing your heart - you will bleed out thru any serious wound while waiting for an ambulance if there's any on the way.

    ---------- Post added 2012-03-21 at 06:29 PM ----------

    Quote Originally Posted by Borzo View Post
    Well I could walk up to some random dude and start a fist fight.

    Then, when he starts beating me up, I pull out my gun and shoot him in self-defence.
    You could do that - but would you? Just because you could?

  9. #1009
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    Quote Originally Posted by ag666 View Post
    I'm pretty sure the correct wording is "makes it possible for". NOT enables. Because I do not see how it ENABLES me for instance to go pick a random fight and kill someone. Probability for wanting to do it before the law == 0%, Probability for wanting to do it after the law == 0%.

    No sane person would use this law to kill someone. To get away with (planned and inevitable) murder? - maybe.
    Insane person does not need no legal "enabler" nor a way to get away with the murder.

    You could make a point that some murderers would theoretically be able to get away with murder - but it still worth it. Better let a criminal go, than send an innocent to jail.
    The human nature is a bit more complex then being sane or insane... If you know you will most likely have a "get out of jail free card" if you shoot someone as long as you claim self defense, more people will shoot first and ask questions later.

    If they on the other hand knew they would probably have to serve time in jail for killing the person, they would automatically start thinking of other ways of getting out of problematic situations, then going straight to the option of going for lethal actions.

    You might argue that you yourself is not like that, but then you are just ignoring how the general human nature is.

  10. #1010
    Quote Originally Posted by ag666 View Post
    I'm pretty sure the correct wording is "makes it possible for". NOT enables. Because I do not see how it ENABLES me for instance to go pick a random fight and kill someone. Probability for wanting to do it before the law == 0%, Probability for wanting to do it after the law == 0%.

    No sane person would use this law to kill someone. To get away with (planned and inevitable) murder? - maybe.
    Insane person does not need no legal "enabler" nor a way to get away with the murder.

    You could make a point that some murderers would theoretically be able to get away with murder - but it still worth it. Better let a criminal go, than send an innocent to jail.
    Or they could simply add a clause which prevents you from instigating a fight and claiming self defense at the same time.

  11. #1011
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    Quote Originally Posted by Daedelus View Post
    Firearm-related death rate per 100,000 population:

    US: 4.14
    UK: 0.07
    Except that the US and UK are not even similar demographically or culturally. Take away the guns from south central and murder will still happen all the time.

    Guns may make murder easier but they are not the reason or the cause.

    ---------- Post added 2012-03-21 at 08:39 AM ----------

    Quote Originally Posted by Purlina View Post
    Or they could simply add a clause which prevents you from instigating a fight and claiming self defense at the same time.
    Or they could be like many other states where self defense is only self defense if it is proportional to the harm...ie, someone is punching you (and unless you really could be killed by it- like a 90 year old), you cannot use deadly force. But, if someone threatens you with deadly force (knife, gun, etc), then you can as well...

  12. #1012
    Quote Originally Posted by Acewipe View Post

    Or they could be like many other states where self defense is only self defense if it is proportional to the harm...ie, someone is punching you (and unless you really could be killed by it- like a 90 year old), you cannot use deadly force. But, if someone threatens you with deadly force (knife, gun, etc), then you can as well...
    Yes, that would be agreeable to me.

    ---------- Post added 2012-03-21 at 02:43 PM ----------

    Quote Originally Posted by ag666 View Post
    You could do that - but would you? Just because you could?
    The reason for doing so is irrelevant. Should he be able to carry out such an act without subsequently being punished?

  13. #1013
    Quote Originally Posted by Acewipe View Post
    Except that the US and UK are not even similar demographically or culturally. Take away the guns from south central and murder will still happen all the time.

    Guns may make murder easier but they are not the reason or the cause
    /facepalm

    The easier something is to do the more likely someone is to do it.

  14. #1014
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    Quote Originally Posted by sisk View Post
    The human nature is a bit more complex then being sane or insane... If you know you will most likely have a "get out of jail free card" if you shoot someone as long as you claim self defense, more people will shoot first and ask questions later.
    I didn't divide people into sane/insane. I mentioned insane to say that they do not care about laws anyway - so no need to bring them up as an argument against the law (inb4). I also said that sane people can abuse the law. But not to kill - to get away with the kill that would've happened anyway.

    It is very hard for an average sane human to kill another human. People need training to do it easily (military/police) or experience (accidental kills, real self-defense kills) or real hatred or big incentive.

    Do not pretend to be macho man here. In a real situation you won't make the kill THAT easily as you think, unless you are military with experience.
    People do not generally kill people NOT because there's a law against murder. Not because there's a god commandment "thou shalt not kill". But because it's not that easy to take life of another human being. For a sane person that is.
    Quote Originally Posted by sisk View Post
    If they on the other hand knew they would probably have to serve time in jail for killing the person, they would automatically start thinking of other ways of getting out of problematic situations, then going straight to the option of going for lethal actions.
    No, sane people refrain from killing because they are sane - not because they are afraid of jail time. Otherwise there would be no crime.
    People can use self-defense to get away with murder, not to commit it. Big difference.
    Criminals may plan murder around self-defense too, though. But it doesn't matter, murder would happen anyway. And as I said it worth it. Better to let 1 criminal go than condemn 1 innocent.
    Quote Originally Posted by sisk View Post
    You might argue that you yourself is not like that, but then you are just ignoring how the general human nature is.
    No, it's you just thinking that everyone else are morally inferior compared to you. "I won't do it, but the rest of population..." should I mention that that is wrong to think that way? (a lot of people think that way, btw, including your neighbor - he thinks you are morally inferior too, he wouldn't kill anybody, but you... thank god you are afraid of jail)

    ---------- Post added 2012-03-21 at 06:55 PM ----------

    Quote Originally Posted by Purlina View Post
    Or they could simply add a clause which prevents you from instigating a fight and claiming self defense at the same time.
    Won't help. Fight can be provoked and it will look like victim started it.
    Quote Originally Posted by Purlina View Post
    The reason for doing so is irrelevant. Should he be able to carry out such an act without subsequently being punished?
    do not forget about the thing you are "buying" with this. Ability to defend you life without the risk of getting jail time.
    I said it before - I say it again - worth it. Now REASON for doing so is relevant. Right?
    Last edited by Elim Garak; 2012-03-21 at 02:57 PM.

  15. #1015
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    Quote Originally Posted by Xeones View Post
    /facepalm

    The easier something is to do the more likely someone is to do it.
    Except that taking guns away (however impossible that might be) would not reduce violence to the levels of Europe...

  16. #1016
    Quote Originally Posted by ag666 View Post

    do not forget about the thing you are "buying" with this. Ability to defend you life without the risk of getting jail time.
    I said it before - I say it again - worth it. No REASON for doing so is relevant. Right?
    I never said that the self defense law should be removed. I stated that it should be modified...

    Notice how Florida's self defense law is unique? Why do you think that is? If Florida has it right, why don't we see more states following suite...?
    Last edited by Purlina; 2012-03-21 at 02:59 PM.

  17. #1017
    Elemental Lord Elim Garak's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Purlina View Post
    I never said that the self defense law should be removed. I stated that it should be modified...
    I saw you liked the idea of "adequate force" - that will kill self-defense. Because the adequacy of force will be determined by people who WEREN'T there. Also it's pretty stupid to expect the victim in a life/death situation stopping for a minute to calculate the "adequate force". You know a big guy jumping on your chest trying to implode it, what should be the adequate force? Attempt a brawl (which you have already lost)? Or shoot the mother fucker down using all the ammo available? What would Jury say? Would they believe you that an "unarmed" guy had to be shot to death with 15 bullets to the chest? No witnesses!
    Quote Originally Posted by Purlina View Post
    Notice how Florida's self defense law is unique? Why do you think that is? If Florida has it right, why don't we see more states following suite...?
    that doesn't make it wrong or bad. There are a lot of funny laws in US, state by state. I think the quality of state lawmakers is way down in US. I think Florida made it right, though.

  18. #1018
    Quote Originally Posted by ag666 View Post
    No you wouldn't, realistically speaking. If someone is up to kill you - the tool doesn't matter. Danger is equal. Only brutality differs (and duration of a kill - i.e. your suffering, imagine being clubbed to death). It won't be a fair duel, you know. Perp will stab you from behind or during a brawl or however he can in a sudden attack. He doesn't have to kill you by stabbing your heart - you will bleed out thru any serious wound while waiting for an ambulance if there's any on the way.
    You're oversimplifying it to the point of absurdity.

    If someone with just his fists wants to kill me, he'd have a tough time. Since I have fists too, I could fight back and stand my ground. Alternatively - if I was afraid of fighting because he's something like a 250 pound boxer, then I could run. His fists can't reach past 2 feet. A fist fight offers lots of options for defence and retreat. Also, killing someone with your fists might take some time, and requires significant physical effort (usually). That time and effort can provide the means for the assailant's emotions to cool down and realize that no - in fact they do NOT want to kill this other person who insulted their mother, and no, they do not want to spend the next 10 years in jail. At the very least, that time can allow others to interview and break the fight up.

    Knives are slightly more effective, but suffer from some of the same limitations. You can easily out-run a knife. If someone with a knife wants to kill me, I could just run away, and they'd never be able to stab me with it. Also, dying from a stab wound requires being stabbed in certain areas - this is difficult to accomplish if I'm fighting back and defending myself. It also requires time and physical exertion to stab someone to death, that time may provide enough opportunity to cool-down, or for others to intervene.

    You need a certain amount of passionate rage and effort to kill someone with your fists or a knife. You also need proximity.

    A gun, can be shot at a distance, and a big gun fired repeatedly into someone's body will stop anyone. The chances of dying to a single bullet to the chest or head is significantly higher than the chances of dying to a punch to the chest or head. Also, you can't outrun a bullet.

    60 seconds of rage + your bare fists = both parties probably still alive
    60 seconds of rage + a gun = someone could easily be dead

    I'm sure if you hired a hit-man to kill someone, they'd be able to do it without guns, knives, or fists. Which seems to be the analogy you're making. But most kills aren't premeditated to that degree... many people die to gunshots in the heat of the moment and are motivated by short-term emotions.


    You could do that - but would you? Just because you could?
    Me? No. I'm sure some people would though.

  19. #1019
    Quote Originally Posted by ag666 View Post
    that doesn't make it wrong or bad. There are a lot of funny laws in US, state by state. I think the quality of state lawmakers is way down in US. I think Florida made it right, though.
    Well that's your opinion, my opinion is that they should take another look at the law.

    I don't see what you find so objectionable about having the law makers in Florida take another look at it...

  20. #1020
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    Quote Originally Posted by ag666 View Post
    I'm pretty sure the correct wording is "makes it possible for". NOT enables. Because I do not see how it ENABLES me for instance to go pick a random fight and kill someone. Probability for wanting to do it before the law == 0%, Probability for wanting to do it after the law == 0%.

    No sane person would use this law to kill someone. To get away with (planned and inevitable) murder? - maybe.
    Insane person does not need no legal "enabler" nor a way to get away with the murder.

    You could make a point that some murderers would theoretically be able to get away with murder - but it still worth it. Better let a criminal go, than send an innocent to jail.
    enables3rd person singular present of en·a·ble (Verb)
    Verb:

    1) Give (someone or something) the authority or means to do something.
    2) Make possible.

    Did you think "enables" meant something else? It has nothing to do with desire.

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