1. #2121
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    Quote Originally Posted by Azalu View Post
    I don't think that. I just constantly seem to get idiots that run in alone and get themselves killed or lose their lane horrifically hard.

    It's not that i'm good it's more that they're really bad
    This. Fucking this. I'd call myself above average, but I think that's being dishonest because the average player is generally just shit at the game (this applies to virtually any game these days.)

    There's only been one game in the past 10-15 games where I'd say the majority of the enemy team was a bunch of goobers. Most of the time, there's probably one guy on their team off eating paint chips and licking the windows, but the rest play reasonably well, and it's the opposite for my teammates - most of the time it's me and probably one other sane and/or English-speaking guy teamed up with a bunch of idiots or people who may be decent at the game, but can't speak English (meaning there's no way to coordinate, which is the same as if all of us were just shit awful at the game.) I've also noticed that, compared to a few weeks ago, the search bar is much wider before it finds a game, but I don't know which way that's significant or if it's related or not. I play at all hours of night and day so I don't think it's restricted to just one time slot, either.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ryan Cailan Ebonheart View Post
    The best you people can do is throw insults and lay your perspective on what a real adult is onto me but I will continue to reject them. And you will try and try again, force me into submission but I will continue to press on.
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  2. #2122
    The way I understand the system (which is pure speculation based on other games using MMR by the way), the search bar should work like this-

    If you're a 2000 player it will start looking for 9 other 2000s, as the bar expands it's because it hits the time limit it spends on this search and opens up to 1900-2100s. After the time on that expires it expands more, and so on. A big search bar should theoretically mean a big search, that is, if you're a 1600 player and the search bar is near full the search has expanded to include 1200-2000s, at this point, you're going to get a matchup that is something like 1200/1200/1500/1600(you)/1800 vs 1300/1400/1400/1500/1500. Of course, the system will use mathematics to say that this is still a fair matchup, even though the entire enemy team is going to epicly stomp your 1200s, which could lose you two lanes by default and therefore the game. Or just as fun, one of the 1200s will instalock a jungler and the other will instalock mid, forcing you to go top against a trilane where their hard carry will free farm while your mid gets epicly stomped by their 1800 and their team raxes in 18 minutes.

    So yes, a bigger search bar is indicative of a worser game.
    Last edited by Lysah; 2012-08-09 at 05:20 AM.
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  3. #2123
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    Quote Originally Posted by Lysah View Post
    The way I understand the system (which is pure speculation based on other games using MMR by the way), the search bar should work like this-

    If you're a 2000 player it will start looking for 9 other 2000s, as the bar expands it's because it hits the time limit it spends on this search and opens up to 1900-2100s. After the time on that expires it expands more, and so on. A big search bar should theoretically mean a big search, that is, if you're a 1600 player and the search bar is near full the search has expanded to include 1200-2000s, at this point, you're going to get a matchup that is something like 1200/1200/1500/1600(you)/1800 vs 1300/1400/1400/1500/1500. Of course, the system will use mathematics to say that this is still a fair matchup, even though the entire enemy team is going to epicly stomp your 1200s, which could lose you two lanes by default and therefore the game. Or just as fun, one of the 1200s will instalock a jungler and the other will instalock mid, forcing you to go top against a trilane where their hard carry will free farm while your mid gets epicly stomped by their 1800 and their team raxes in 18 minutes.

    So yes, a bigger search bar is indicative of a worser game.
    I don't think I've seen a successful trilane run in any of my games yet, probably because heroes like Dark Seer, Chen, Enchantress, and Enigma are never picked.

    I'm wondering if they really feel the MMR system is "fixed," and if their concern is faster queues rather than better queues. I know that there are threads from about a month ago of people complaining about the MMR system not working and a post a week or two later from the devs saying the MM system was "fixed." If this is "fixed," I think they fixed something that wasn't broken :/
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ryan Cailan Ebonheart View Post
    The best you people can do is throw insults and lay your perspective on what a real adult is onto me but I will continue to reject them. And you will try and try again, force me into submission but I will continue to press on.
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  4. #2124
    I already wait 10 minutes in solo queue, then another 5-10 after the spam declines start happening. So...not sure if want more reservation by the system :x
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  5. #2125
    Every game that works on rating-based MM will eventually put you at around 50% win rate, or at least not much above. The mechanics are fairly simple, you can keep on winning and winning until you're matched with the topmost players at which point unless you're just that much better than everyone else at the game your win ratio will even out after 100, 1000 or 5000 games. And that's why the system eventually will always work. While the system cannot account for a lot of things, after playing enough games you're right where you belong.

    The "my teammates are shit" -sentiment is always stupid. The system won't and can't account for personal inconsistencies - everyone has bad and good days, or games. On a good day I might take a known player heads-on on a lane and win, on a bad one I'll lose and advantageous lane atrociously to a player I don't think much of. I'd say I'm sometimes rather inconsistent, and on a bad day I can't always point out whether it's because of lack of skill, sleep, focus or (lack of?) alcohol in my blood. You can't account for any of that in a rating, yet although I don't solo queue much, I'm usually quite satisfied with the games even if it takes 5-15 minutes to queue for one.

    Even evenly matched games often turn into stomps. If you suppose every lane in a game is evenly matched and accept that a team that wins every lane will usually completely dominate the other one and simulate the chance by a coin toss, the chance of three heads or three tails and complete domination in every game sits at 25%. Sometimes your teammates don't play as well as they usually do and make mistakes and it's easy to point fingers, but often when you dominate a game you're too absorbed in your own success to realize you're just in the other end of the same situation.

    When I started Dota 2, I recall having around 75-80% win ratio after my first 100-150 games, yet now after 1500 games I sit solidly at around 51%.

    ---------- Post added 2012-08-09 at 09:45 AM ----------

    Quote Originally Posted by Lysah View Post
    I already wait 10 minutes in solo queue, then another 5-10 after the spam declines start happening. So...not sure if want more reservation by the system :x
    Honestly put, you don't. HoN was very strict about the MMR range and group size it matched you with or against. I sat at around 1900 rating and queues were 10 minutes minimum, often over 20. If you neared 2000's, queue times would go to being over 45 minutes long, and a bit beyond that you might wait for hours without getting a game. Top players and pros would constantly have to ask GM's for resets or new account to be able to play MM, and in the end while HoN might have had slightly more balanced games it suffered from low-mid games being riddled with smurfs and mid-high games taking a long time to form. Until there's a lot more players, stricter terms on MM would probably result in very long queues for some brackets or hours.
    Last edited by Hermanni; 2012-08-11 at 08:45 AM.



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  6. #2126
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    Quote Originally Posted by Hermanni View Post
    The "my teammates are shit" -sentiment is always stupid. The system won't and can't account for personal inconsistencies - everyone has bad and good days, or games. On a good day I might take a known player heads-on on a lane and win, on a bad one I'll lose and advantageous lane atrociously to a player I don't think much of. I'd say I'm sometimes rather inconsistent, and on a bad day I can't always point out whether it's because of lack of skill, sleep, focus or (lack of?) alcohol in my blood. You can't account for any of that in a rating, yet although I don't solo queue much, I'm usually quite satisfied with the games even if it takes 5-15 minutes to queue for one.
    I wouldn't consider not paying attention to the minimap (I bought wards for a reason you fucking idiots!), running into a 1v5 to "save" a teammate (read: we're now stuck with a 3v5 instead of a 4v5 when they come to take rax), running into rosh pit alone because ursa and enigma are missing, autoattacking creeps instead of focusing on last hits, not denying ANY creeps ever, running past river when solo vs a dual stun lane, and a dozen more things like that:

    Those aren't the kinds of things I'd classify as "that's just them having a bad game." Having a bad game is going 60/8 instead of 80/20 in your lane, or dying once (and ONLY once!) to what should've been an obvious gank, or screwing up your pulls/stacks. Those are things that will vary from game to game, but overall don't mean the player sucks.

    I dunno, I can understand MMR being an issue when you're at the top, but maybe it wouldn't be an issue if the system was better able to separate the shit awful players (i.e. the kind that don't care that they're bad, or are bad and insist that it's their TEAM'S fault they died because they went straight Dagon 5 Lion) from the newbies-wanting-to-learn and intermediate players.

    I don't know how you'd setup such a system, though. You're right that there are a metric fuckton of variables the system has to consider in a game like Dota.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ryan Cailan Ebonheart View Post
    The best you people can do is throw insults and lay your perspective on what a real adult is onto me but I will continue to reject them. And you will try and try again, force me into submission but I will continue to press on.
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  7. #2127
    The only solution to the feeling of being mismatched I know of is: Play more games. If that doesn't help, Play more games and start observing your mistakes rather than your teammate's.

    Having a bad game has no limits. A bad game can go from missing two lasthits in the first 10 minutes on a freefarm lane to going 0-10 in 12 minutes as solo mid. You can't make your teammates better by observing them, much less by flaming them. What you can do is adapt to them. If I see, for example, our solo mid dying constantly, instead of going holyfuckhowcanhebesobadhowdidheloseaspudgetobloodseekerhowthefuckdidhenotseethatguywasmiss ingholyshitthisgameissolostblablabla what I'd usually do is ask them if they could play more safely and walk my earthshaking ass to the trees behind middle and stop any further ganks. Can't always save a game but sometimes it does wonders.



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  8. #2128
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    Quote Originally Posted by Hermanni View Post
    The only solution to the feeling of being mismatched I know of is: Play more games. If that doesn't help, Play more games and start observing your mistakes rather than your teammate's.
    Pretty much what I already do, it's a holdover from when I played SC2 seriously, though that was 1v1. You can't control what your teammates do, but you CAN control what YOU do, so focus on that.

    Having a bad game has no limits. A bad game can go from missing two lasthits in the first 10 minutes on a freefarm lane to going 0-10 in 12 minutes as solo mid. You can't make your teammates better by observing them, much less by flaming them. What you can do is adapt to them. If I see, for example, our solo mid dying constantly, instead of going holyfuckhowcanhebesobadhowdidheloseaspudgetobloodseekerhowthefuckdidhenotseethatguywasmiss ingholyshitthisgameissolostblablabla what I'd usually do is ask them if they could play more safely and walk my earthshaking ass to the trees behind middle and stop any further ganks. Can't always save a game but sometimes it does wonders.
    And insulting people doesn't help, it just makes things worse. Last thing you want is a rank newbie that knows he or she sucks at the game and and feels guilty about ruining games for others, but wants to learn. Raging at people like that is just going to reinforce their opinion of "I'm not good enough, I shouldn't play," and chase away someone that's potentially otherwise a fun person to play with. Raging at people who can't understand you (BRs/RUs) doesn't do anything productive. Raging at the dickbags that insist you're the problem just exacerbates the problem.

    Unfortunately, being polite and friendly doesn't accomplish anything since non-English speakers/asshats vastly outnumber the regular folks and even when I play support and basically force-feed my teammates kills and whatnot, they still insult me for my "bad" 0/5/9 score with 5/28 CS at 25 minutes.

    I know the solution is to just play more games, and since I enjoy DotA, it's not that hard to do. It rapidly becomes frustrating and not-fun when you run into these players literally four or five games in a row, even if you played those games in sets that were played hours apart.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ryan Cailan Ebonheart View Post
    The best you people can do is throw insults and lay your perspective on what a real adult is onto me but I will continue to reject them. And you will try and try again, force me into submission but I will continue to press on.
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  9. #2129
    Scarab Lord Azalu's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by PizzaSHARK View Post
    I don't think I've seen a successful trilane run in any of my games yet, probably because heroes like Dark Seer, Chen, Enchantress, and Enigma are never picked.

    I'm wondering if they really feel the MMR system is "fixed," and if their concern is faster queues rather than better queues. I know that there are threads from about a month ago of people complaining about the MMR system not working and a post a week or two later from the devs saying the MM system was "fixed." If this is "fixed," I think they fixed something that wasn't broken :/
    I must be odd. They're frequent picks for me. Had a sweet game yesterday where somebody picked Enigma and Faceless Void. I just had to pick DS, oh the beautiful, beautiful combos

  10. #2130
    I've had this game forever but never really tried it, I feel like a jerk for wasting such an awesome game and not playing it. It seemed slower but the map seemed much bigger than most MOBA games (Smite is 3rd person, that's different altogether) and was wondering if there will be a competitive scene to it. Also should I play it and get through that stage of getting raged at because I suck or will they devour my soul?
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  11. #2131
    Quote Originally Posted by Duronos View Post
    and was wondering if there will be a competitive scene to it.'
    The competitive dota scene has been around since ~2005 and that's what the game is based on. Whether or not you can manage without overusing the mute button is up to yourself.



    Manni | paragon.fi | Dota 2 forum | The golden rule: Listen to Lysah.

  12. #2132
    Being polite helps as much as flaming. Tested and approved.

  13. #2133
    Quote Originally Posted by Duronos View Post
    I've had this game forever but never really tried it, I feel like a jerk for wasting such an awesome game and not playing it. It seemed slower but the map seemed much bigger than most MOBA games (Smite is 3rd person, that's different altogether) and was wondering if there will be a competitive scene to it. Also should I play it and get through that stage of getting raged at because I suck or will they devour my soul?
    That depends... How strong is your soul?

    (Also, if things get out of hand, just turn on some soothing music, and mute the whiners with the button on your scoreboard. (It mutes both text and mic.))
    Last edited by conceit2; 2012-08-09 at 03:21 PM.

  14. #2134
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    Quote Originally Posted by Hermanni View Post
    The competitive dota scene has been around since ~2005 and that's what the game is based on. Whether or not you can manage without overusing the mute button is up to yourself.
    Yeah, I get a pretty large number of stoners that apparently find spamming their mic the entire game to be hilarious. I'm glad there's a mute button.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ryan Cailan Ebonheart View Post
    The best you people can do is throw insults and lay your perspective on what a real adult is onto me but I will continue to reject them. And you will try and try again, force me into submission but I will continue to press on.
    MMOC IRC!

  15. #2135
    Hmm, seems like I might be able to troll over voice chat but not with my ability. I love that.
    The Runaway. I love my new nickname. Is there a picture of me? Does it look good?

  16. #2136
    Can't agree with you this time Manni. I really don't have bad games and I don't make mistakes. As arrogant as that sounds, there are a lot of people (well, maybe not a lot) like me. The number of times I have lost and it has been at all my fault can be counted on one hand in the past 1000 games...I can think of twice, and both times I randomed Necrolyte. I really hate that hero now, he's just weak as piss =/

    I don't know what to tell you, I can't really convince you without knowing the MMR rating of everyone I play with. However, if you want to duo queue with me I can guarantee with almost complete certainty that we will get at least one ally who goes 0-8 on his own. Sometimes there really is nothing you can do about it, someone else's feeding might be your fault, but most of the time it is their's. Regardless, after 1000 games, I've just learned not to take DotA2 matchmaking very seriously. I very, very rarely get a "good" game, most of the time it's just a stomp on end or the other. Even my wins typically aren't all that fun.

    Solo queue seems to be slightly better, but the range of games I get on literally a game to game basis (page 2 one game page 16 the next) is just absurd. It tells me that either the pages mean nothing (unlikely) or the system really does keep a huge range of MMRs in each game.


    I also have about 1500 people on mute so far in DotA2. Almost every time I solo queue I get a game with 2/3 people already ignored in it.
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  17. #2137
    Scarab Lord Azalu's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by janzeer View Post
    So sad there is no Bristle Back in DOTA2, hopping they will add him soon :P
    It'll be fun to see him be banned again every game

  18. #2138
    Quote Originally Posted by Lysah View Post
    Solo queue seems to be slightly better, but the range of games I get on literally a game to game basis (page 2 one game page 16 the next) is just absurd. It tells me that either the pages mean nothing (unlikely) or the system really does keep a huge range of MMRs in each game.
    14 pages out of about 600 isn't that huge of a range tbh.

  19. #2139
    Quote Originally Posted by Jangri- View Post
    14 pages out of about 600 isn't that huge of a range tbh.
    The weird part is MMR puts trash(according to lysah) to page 16. Page 16 means you have more than average MMR because I hardly ever see less then 400 pages. In fact, page 16 is a very good position.

  20. #2140
    Scarab Lord Azalu's Avatar
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    Anybody else having a problem with Dota?

    It thinks the game client has been updated so I can't join the game but when I close and re-open dota there's no update attempt

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