1. #221
    Quote Originally Posted by Lysah View Post
    Yes, because they are. Extremely low basic attack damage with terrible stat progression. It is very, very, very easy to stomp on both of these heroes if you're not in a public game.
    Honestly calling WR and PotM weak heroes because of slightly lower then average stat progression is just strange, they are very powerful heroes and there is a reason they are picked in nearly all high level games. But I'm honestly not gonna bother to argue with you about this as your stance in the thread thus far has been "my opinions in DotA are contrary to the excepted norm but remain superior". Losing a lane to SB as WR or Potm is just silly though tbh
    Last edited by Freezymcgee; 2012-03-21 at 07:58 PM.

  2. #222
    I want my Dota2 access, but they haven't given it to me yet

  3. #223
    Quote Originally Posted by Lysah View Post
    Yes, because they are. Extremely low basic attack damage with terrible stat progression. It is very, very, very easy to stomp on both of these heroes if you're not in a public game. They're mostly favored for their ability to solo the long lane and open up the 3 way short lane or roamer, but this is because of leap and windrunner, not because the heroes themselves are particularly good at soloing. In fact, almost every game I play, potm/WR loses their solo long lane. The difference is, losing for them means going 0-0 and not farming all that great. Losing for a hero like SB would mean 0-4 and four levels behind. Furthermore, neither hero really needs farm to do their job, making them another good choice for long solo.

    Compare the early game basic damage of these heroes to pretty much any STR hero or nearly any other agility hero for a while and see what you start to notice.
    I don't really understand. Stat gain for either hero isn't particularly low, and their base damage isn't much different from other ranged heroes in contrast to melee heroes. Windrunner is often played solo in the short lane and sometimes mid, Mirana sees play in almost any lane. Both heroes in good hands can own a 1v1 lane, especially against melee heroes.

    You don't send a hero to solo the hard lane and expect them to "win" that lane. One of the common ideologies in high level dota is that if you can win two lanes out of three, you're in a great position going into mid-game. You throw a Windrunner to solo that hardlane because even she obviously has no chance of "winning" against 2-3 heroes she can often safely get enough XP and gold to keep herself relevant in the game while protecting the tower against weaker pushes. Meanwhile your 4 other heroes can focus on controlling your safe lane, mid and the jungle inbetween.

    So I don't really get where this "weak heroes" comes from. Windrunner is powerful early game and is usually played as utility hero while good Shackleshots can win you games no matter how far you're into lategame. Even if Mirana can't quite outcarry Anti-mage with equal farm, she is extremely good on a lane, pushing and ganking (combo a stun from another hero with arrow and you're racking in kills) and your ultimate forces the other team to invest into True Sight or suffer when your team appears from nowhere on top of them. Both are also some of the best solo heroes there are (in lanes other than mid.) You can solo (hardlane) with heroes like Clockwerk or Sand King, but it definitely isn't going to be easier.



    Manni | paragon.fi | Dota 2 forum | The golden rule: Listen to Lysah.

  4. #224
    Quote Originally Posted by Freezymcgee View Post
    Losing a lane to SB as WR or Potm is just silly though tbh
    This line proves you completely misunderstood what I said and have no idea what I'm talking about.

    @Hermanni
    A ranged winning against a melee, because no other ranged can also do that.

    I don't mean weak all around. I never meant weak all around. We were never talking about anything but early game. They are weak heroes early game, almost any hero can jump on top of them and force them to run. Most PotM/WR players skill leap/windrunner first or second at the very latest because they NEED it to stay alive in their lane against just about anything. They are weak heroes.

    Both of them have very good utility, yes, this is what redeems them and makes them pickable.
    Win and live. Lose and die.
    Rule of life. No change rule.
    Running worse than losing.
    Random casual stuff now


  5. #225
    Can PoTM and WR get owned in a solo hard lane? Yeah if you had some stupid combo to lane against. However what other hero(s) can do it better than them. You get decent farm ability to not get ridiculously out CSed and an early escape mechanism in case you get ganked.

  6. #226
    Yes, that's the point.
    Win and live. Lose and die.
    Rule of life. No change rule.
    Running worse than losing.
    Random casual stuff now


  7. #227
    The majority of post referred to WR and PotM not being weak heroes which you conveniently ignored.
    Keep carrying with Earthshaker and thinking PotM and WR are weak because of amazing escape mechanisms

  8. #228
    Quote Originally Posted by Lysah View Post
    Yes, that's the point.
    Errr so what would be a "strong" early game hero then...

  9. #229
    WR is currently one of top competative picks. Basic base dmg of hero doesn't matter when you evaluate their viability. WR is extremly capable soloer. Her lane control comes from great attack animation, a superb harassment skill(Powershot), also potential shackels with hitting creeps. Also extremly capable in teamfights. 3.75 stun on TWO heroes ain't nothing to laugh about, + a great nuke that's easy to hit on 2+ heroes, a good and reliable escape mechanism. Her ult allowes her to somewhat transition lategame as well, and be a good pusher as well.

    About POTM, meh won't go into details. There might be a reason while team who won 1.6million tournament picked her in every game except some finals where they wen't suprise picks.

    Sorry, but your game understanding is a bit lacking. No offense intended, but perhaps you should play some more higher level games. Everythign works and anything doesn't work in true pub games.

  10. #230
    Quote Originally Posted by Lysah View Post
    don't mean weak all around. I never meant weak all around. We were never talking about anything but early game. They are weak heroes early game, almost any hero can jump on top of them and force them to run. Most PotM/WR players skill leap/windrunner first or second at the very latest because they NEED it to stay alive in their lane against just about anything. They are weak heroes.
    Any hero that gets thrown to solo hard lane is going to be "weak" in the early game. You said they're not particularly good at soloing even having reliable escapes is exactly what makes heroes "good" at soloing hardlane or 1v2/1v3 safelane. If not confined to solo sidelane, Mirana can easily win mid or carry a game with trilane farm.

    So what makes a hero "strong" is being able to sit there tanking the enemy lane and take it like a man early game?
    Last edited by Hermanni; 2012-03-21 at 10:01 PM.



    Manni | paragon.fi | Dota 2 forum | The golden rule: Listen to Lysah.

  11. #231
    Windrunner may not be as strong as heroes such as Batrider or Shadow Demon at guaranteeing a winning lane, her kit is just so versatile that she'll hold her own, or at least survive decently in any lane. I wouldn't mind seeing her getting a slight nerf so that teams don't pick her as often, coz honestly, she's freaking boring hero to watch (other than played by Vigoss, of course).

  12. #232
    A random off-topic question - does Paragon players in fact play dota while waiting for MoP or something?

  13. #233
    Quote Originally Posted by Jangri- View Post
    A random off-topic question - does Paragon players in fact play dota while waiting for MoP or something?
    Well, besides from 90 minute weekly farmraids there isn't much to do in wow for me at least, so yeah. I personally played dota > hon > dota2 since 2006 or something and there's a lot of dota/lol players in the guild.
    Last edited by Hermanni; 2012-03-21 at 10:46 PM.



    Manni | paragon.fi | Dota 2 forum | The golden rule: Listen to Lysah.

  14. #234
    Thanks for info. Would love to see a Paragon vs Smth(Perhaps team of pro SC2 players?) showmatch :P

  15. #235
    Quote Originally Posted by Hermanni View Post
    So what makes a hero "strong" is being able to sit there tanking the enemy lane and take it like a man early game?
    No, it's being able to frontload pressure to force someone out of a lane or force them to change their style to suit you alone. As was said above, several ints can do this quite easily early game. I don't really feel the need to go into a list of high presence heroes, I'm not writing a guide here.

    @Jangri-
    Stop assuming that the extremely small number of people who play tourneys are the ultimate answer to the DotA meta. The people who win tourneys are not even the best players, because the best players don't go to tourneys. I know this is an assumption we all love to make, but it's possible to be both good and casual. I play with people regularly who would force several top tourney picks to feed. The community is still extremely small, and the support for esports is practically nonexistant. The tourneys are not the best players, they are the players who care the most. They are undoubtedly good, but stop thinking that they are unbeatable, never wrong, and that we should just go into sheep mode and copy whatever it is they do.

    I don't really have anything to prove, I really could not care less what you think of my skill or knowledge. But please don't mislead a new player into trying out a very niche hero like Windrunner because "she's so OP." If you don't land a shackleshot, you've just lost 90% of your hero and you're barely worth the two spells it will take to kill you. How about we lead newer players to trying out heroes who aren't so dependent on a single skill shot so that they can try to learn the game before they feed hardcore.
    Last edited by Lysah; 2012-03-21 at 11:16 PM.
    Win and live. Lose and die.
    Rule of life. No change rule.
    Running worse than losing.
    Random casual stuff now


  16. #236
    Lol your opinion is the quintessence of someone who plays with a couple of friends and pub-stomp and then think they are amazing for doing so.

  17. #237
    Give it a rest, you have no idea who I am. You're derailing and spamming the thread with useless drivel.
    Win and live. Lose and die.
    Rule of life. No change rule.
    Running worse than losing.
    Random casual stuff now


  18. #238
    You posted your Dota2 name. Unless someone else is now Starling you are playing against some amazing noobs. I mean do I really see Lothar's on ES? I mean its not even a troll build when you don't get a blink...

    oh wow I just saw another gem. Dazzle getting FBed without even trying to SG himself with backup coming. Yeah...

    p.s. I do have say your last hitting as Tiny was pretty good...with quelling blade.
    Last edited by Jinto; 2012-03-21 at 11:56 PM.

  19. #239
    Quote Originally Posted by Lysah View Post
    The people who win tourneys are not even the best players, because the best players don't go to tourneys.
    I had a feeling I was headed into a pointless argument, thanks for snapping me out of it with that piece of gold.



    Manni | paragon.fi | Dota 2 forum | The golden rule: Listen to Lysah.

  20. #240
    Quote Originally Posted by Lysah View Post
    The people who win tourneys are not even the best players, because the best players don't go to tourneys..
    so what best players actually do? there is some kind of secret lobby ?
    Last edited by Finear; 2012-03-22 at 12:28 AM.

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