[Megathread] DotA 2

[Lysah]

It's already finished.

Ah. The second one then. Can you tell how excited I am about esports?

[Hermanni]

Ah. The second one then. Can you tell how excited I am about esports?

Must be awful being you because just about every series in the Winner's Bracket was phenomenal. As were many in the LB, LaNm's Tiny outcarrying Morphling and Broodmother in a 60 minute game with 750 gpm after his team had been in 15k+ gold disadvantage was one of the best things I've ever seen in dota.

[Lysah]

Must be awful being you because just about every series in the Winner's Bracket was phenomenal. As were many in the LB, LaNm's Tiny outcarrying Morphling and Broodmother in a 60 minute game with 750 gpm after his team had been in 15k+ gold disadvantage was one of the best things I've ever seen in dota.

I argued like 50 pages ago that carry Tiny is simply not beatable when he gets items. Pretty sure everyone hated on me back then, and I had a friend telling me about someone using carry tiny to great effect in the tourney.

At the end of the day, nothing they do will be new to me or impress me. As arrogant as it sounds...that's just the way it is. I've tried to watch esports, all I see is a typical game. It's more entertaining than watching non-high-rated matches for sure, but that's not saying much.

If anything, I just get mad watching because I wish I had teammates that could work together like that.

In lighter news, I'm really falling in love with BoTs beastmaster. Nothing like teleporting to your hawk for a quick ult kill on anyone, anywhere. And necron/3 with his aura/pig is just ridiculous. Getting kills on full health ints with just the summons, too fun.

[Hermanni]

I argued like 50 pages ago that carry Tiny is simply not beatable when he gets items. Pretty sure everyone hated on me back then, and I had a friend telling me about someone using carry tiny to great effect in the tourney.

At the end of the day, nothing they do will be new to me or impress me. As arrogant as it sounds...that's just the way it is. I've tried to watch esports, all I see is a typical game. It's more entertaining than watching non-high-rated matches for sure, but that's not saying much.

If anything, I just get mad watching because I wish I had teammates that could work together like that.

>I had a paragraph here but I decided I'm in a too good mood for what I was about to write, so I'll just say that if that's really how you think and not some act you have to keep up, being you really must be awful. At least until you can clone yourself.

Just saying 'carry tiny is unbeatable' (or any other disputable argument without bothering to elaborate or argue the case) is just as informative as the dot that ends this sentence. And what was actually interesting in that game was how Ehome solved the obvious problems Tiny has in such a role through Wisp and various early item choices on both Tiny and Wisp.

[Kaynot]

I really liked LGDs winning spree and have hoped they would win TI2.I think they deserved it.On the other hand they failed to come up with counter-Rubick team comp/Orchid builds and it was disappointing.
However there was another thing that have totally upset me - streaming times.During Grand Finals it was 3-5 A.M. in Europe.They should have moved GF to the next day so that most people could watch it simultaneously, otherwise it was a real dickmove on the Valves side.

[Nelavar]

I really liked LGDs winning spree and have hoped they would win TI2.I think they deserved it.On the other hand they failed to come up with counter-Rubick team comp/Orchid builds and it was disappointing.
However there was another thing that have totally upset me - streaming times.During Grand Finals it was 3-5 A.M. in Europe.They should have moved GF to the next day so that most people could watch it simultaneously, otherwise it was a real dickmove on the Valves side.

Yeah that was actually pretty ugly, I actually stayed up until after iG vs LGD even though i had to get up rather early.
As it happens though i was hitting up joinDota after i got up again to check who won and they were still playing the 4th game. WTF was had quite strongly

[Deleted]

I really liked LGDs winning spree and have hoped they would win TI2.I think they deserved it.On the other hand they failed to come up with counter-Rubick team comp/Orchid builds and it was disappointing.
However there was another thing that have totally upset me - streaming times.During Grand Finals it was 3-5 A.M. in Europe.They should have moved GF to the next day so that most people could watch it simultaneously, otherwise it was a real dickmove on the Valves side.

That was the same deal last year when TI1 was held in Germany. They can't find a time that fits everyone. Sadly.

[Jangri-]

The world is large, and some part of it will always have the events in bad time frame.

[Lysah]

Just saying 'carry tiny is unbeatable' (or any other disputable argument without bothering to elaborate or argue the case) is just as informative as the dot that ends this sentence. And what was actually interesting in that game was how Ehome solved the obvious problems Tiny has in such a role through Wisp and various early item choices on both Tiny and Wisp.

Wisp is unnecessary, although helpful. Craggy is an autocounter to enemy carries, but even without, hardly any hero can out-DPS a stacked Tiny hit for hit. He also gets fairly tanky just by buying scepter. Of course, with abilities like black hole and chronosphere it might be possible, but even if you can somehow manage to win a team fight in that manner, a fed scepter tiny needs all of two seconds to destroy rax - he can flat out ignore the team fight and take your base and you can't really do anything to stop it. You're spending all of your abilities to wipe his team and suddenly your rax are gone. You try to push and he just backdoors another set of rax, or maybe it'll be your tree this time.

Of course, he does have team fight issues early game, but that's why you should never feel safe against an enemy tiny who knows how to build. Give him enough time to get items and you lose. I would say other heroes have this ability as well...but they just don't. Stygian Clinkz is probably the only hero who can remotely match his base damage, and Clinkz doesn't get massive cleave from his attacks.

[Sorx]

I agree tiny is more powerful than given credit and for quite some time i've been waiting for him to be used, but I would not call him hardest. While definetly strong, he can be beaten. This is easier to achieve before he's leveled as you've mentioned

Thee problem i see with any melee carry is that you spend time not attacking due to have to move to your target and keep up with him. be it one second or not, it's that's quite the dps loss which far outweighs most innate proclivities to being a carry according to the amount of items you have. In other words, the more dps you do, the more you miss when stopping. This in turn provides leeway for people who attack contently to beat you. Tiny has get's a lot of base dmg so i'll atleat given him that but also being melee often prevents you from building completely offensively or building in certain manners.

I would say a stacked sniper could beat a tiny. Of course, there's more that can be said, be it builds strategies or otherwise, as there is much to this game. not to mention this is still a team game.

[Lysah]

Still, most of the more powerful carries end up being melee, regardless of that inherent disability. Tiny gets not only the strength of being melee, but a scepter that makes him effectively ranged. He also gets movespeed from his ultimate so you can't really keep him away. A stacked sniper is scary for the permastun he can put out, but craggy exterior will beat him. And if he gets lucky on that, tiny still has two stuns.

My best bet would be to beat him before he gets strong. His lane phase isn't bad but it isn't great, either. He can farm pretty easily but without arcane boots it will cost him the ability to be active in skirmishes. You can beat him here, of course. You could beat him in an overall team vs. team engagement, but a good Tiny should already know if his team doesn't stand a chance in a fight, and, like I said, can just destroy the base instead of the heroes. If you get a BKB on him and they don't have anti-BKB CC, you can pretty much guarantee a building or two before they even have a chance to CC you, let alone kill you.

I don't think he's overpowered, instead, I merely wish to argue that Tiny has a wider range of matchups in which he will do well. We already know there are heroes like Clinkz who, when picked, will win the vast majority of their games. They rarely get picked, however, because the type of game they excel in is quite specific. I believe Tiny, on the other hand, can excel in nearly any game. I really wish people would give him more recognition. That seems to be typical of strength heroes lately, however. They make stronger carries (in general) than agility heroes most of the time, but they require more time to be effective and so are actively discarded in the current early game heavy meta.

I don't usually go fangirl for specific heroes but Tiny is a not so secret love of mine. I'm glad he got some attention, and from what I understand, IG ended up beating EHOME by banning Tiny instead of trying to think of a counter for him. That sounds like a win in my book (but I could be wrong since I'm just reading articles about the tournament instead of actually watching it).

[Sorx]

Oh, they feared it and did in fact ban tiny. The more you speak though, the more I’m perplexed as to why he is not picked. I have not denied tiny’s strength, but hearing it is another matter. He is quite versatile in many regards when considered and even excels in areas.

I would like to add, I don’t believe melee carries are so dominant, as much as it is people playing in that fashion. They often have abilities which grant them some bonus dmg, leading people into believing that’s where they excel. I’m not saying melee carries aren’t good but people play accordingly to what they believe is powerful and in certain manners which can ignore or inhibit true strength. For example, I don't think void is a hard carry per se. Perhaps if this was a solo game, but many heroes on his team could have a harder carry potential if given the opportunity as they all benefit from chrono. yes void has back track but he must be amidst fights and in more danger. He has time lock, but it does not quite compare to a guaranteed stun. Void can at least farm in dangerous situations.

I’ll admit tiny, sniper 1v1 is a bit iffy given his stun, and if tiny wasn’t a str hero, id discount it. the full benefit probably only kicks in towards later game, for sniper is free to go stats. I do think sniper is harder to stop in a sense. 810 range is quite big, leaving him able to be active far outside typical range. Tiny may be fast but you will waste time having to move and between switching targets regardless of whether they escape. In terms of taking people down, especially in a prolonged engagement, sniper can clean house. If you build him right that is, which I don’t believe happens imo, but that’s besides the matter.

I think many unconventional heroes can carry in some regard. Off the top of what my ~3am brian can muster, 1v1 veno with agha should kill almost anyone because gale +nova is such an advantage that many would die to alone. You might kill veno in the process but you’re going to die and tp’ing may not save you. Not to mention Veno can still build dmg/ other items as well to skew this possibility

So much to this game is easy to overlook. Personally, I don’t care much for most meta-games. I see it not as a limiting factor and nothing more than the acknowledgement of current trends. This does not necessarily affect genuinely progressive strategies but can make weaker setups, which counter the current one, also appealing. I tend to do what I believe, be it in agreement or disagreement.

[Kaynot]

I dont see a need to ban carry Tiny since he can easily be dealt with if you get Morph/SD or DS on your team

[Lysah]

Carry Tiny beat Morphling every single time they went up against each other in this tournament from what I'm told :x
DS is definitely a good bet, though. He's a godly pick against anything, though.

[Coffer]

Stupid question, but what changes did Axe receive that suddenly made him a better laner than a jungler? Lots of people seem to be saying this, but aside from Battle Hunger finally being useful (and even so it still looks extremely easy to counter) I can't think of anything else.

If it's true, which it likely is, then I'll have run out of junglers that I can play reliably. Any recommendations? I'm not fond of Enigma at all so he's out of the question.

[Deleted]

Stupid question, but what changes did Axe receive that suddenly made him a better laner than a jungler? Lots of people seem to be saying this, but aside from Battle Hunger finally being useful (and even so it still looks extremely easy to counter) I can't think of anything else.

If it's true, which it likely is, then I'll have run out of junglers that I can play reliably. Any recommendations? I'm not fond of Enigma at all so he's out of the question.

battle hunger was buffed several times (6.63, 6.68, 6.69, 6.71, 6.72, 6.73) and is probably his strongest spell now. A dot with slow, ms buff, high dmg overall, low cd, no deny... I remember axe mostly being played as initiator who levels berserkers call and counter helix and rushes dagger but he was very weak at that compared to proper initiators. Now once you get mana boots you can spam battle hunger and if you can pressure your enemy into not being able to last hit you will win your lane.

Storm and Tinker can jungle nowadays maybe give them a try.

[Lysah]

Battle hunger is definitely absurdly strong, and let's not forget, with just a stout shield he can easily afford to run circles around you drawing creep aggro. The second you stop focusing on him to frantically try to last hit and clear hunger he's on top of you roflhelixing away and you're dead. Not to mention if you don't have a teleport scroll and he can get you to 200-300 health and hit you with another hunger you're also dead.

I still prefer him in the jungle, though, just for the virtually guaranteed gold/exp..it's easy to keep up with the solo lane in levels and ganking mid/side at 6 with hunger/culling can get a kill pretty much all the time. I'm not really sure what kind of team you would put Axe on, but he's not the blink/caller he used to be. Energy boots support Axe is definitely more his niche now...

[Strah]

Oh, they feared it and did in fact ban tiny. The more you speak though, the more I’m perplexed as to why he is not picked. I have not denied tiny’s strength, but hearing it is another matter. He is quite versatile in many regards when considered and even excels in areas.

I would like to add, I don’t believe melee carries are so dominant, as much as it is people playing in that fashion. They often have abilities which grant them some bonus dmg, leading people into believing that’s where they excel. I’m not saying melee carries aren’t good but people play accordingly to what they believe is powerful and in certain manners which can ignore or inhibit true strength. For example, I don't think void is a hard carry per se. Perhaps if this was a solo game, but many heroes on his team could have a harder carry potential if given the opportunity as they all benefit from chrono. yes void has back track but he must be amidst fights and in more danger. He has time lock, but it does not quite compare to a guaranteed stun. Void can at least farm in dangerous situations.

I’ll admit tiny, sniper 1v1 is a bit iffy given his stun, and if tiny wasn’t a str hero, id discount it. the full benefit probably only kicks in towards later game, for sniper is free to go stats. I do think sniper is harder to stop in a sense. 810 range is quite big, leaving him able to be active far outside typical range. Tiny may be fast but you will waste time having to move and between switching targets regardless of whether they escape. In terms of taking people down, especially in a prolonged engagement, sniper can clean house. If you build him right that is, which I don’t believe happens imo, but that’s besides the matter.

You don't see void as a hard carry?

Odd, he's probably one of the hardest carries out there, being able to kill 2-3 people within one chrono when he had farm.


I wouldn't say sniper is a hard carry though. Yes he's got the range, yes he can deal some damage, but he hasn't got any form of cc or an escape mechanism, which is why he's extremely squishy. Hard carries tend to have a proper escape mechanisms - void, spectre, morphling, PA, Magina - they all have got some sort of escape, while range carries do not, which is why melee are preferred.

[Deleted]

Oh god how i love when you are on a ownage streak!
My last 3 games has gone like this:

Enchantress 15/1/12
Night Stalker 16/0/5
Pudge 29/1/8

I am finally getting the hang of the speed after playing HoN since closed beta. I have played about 120 games in Dota2.

[Sorx]

You don't see void as a hard carry?

Odd, he's probably one of the hardest carries out there, being able to kill 2-3 people within one chrono when he had farm.


I wouldn't say sniper is a hard carry though. Yes he's got the range, yes he can deal some damage, but he hasn't got any form of cc or an escape mechanism, which is why he's extremely squishy. Hard carries tend to have a proper escape mechanisms - void, spectre, morphling, PA, Magina - they all have got some sort of escape, while range carries do not, which is why melee are preferred.

i did not say void is not a hard carry. I'm merely stating that once an enemy is chrono'd his entire team benefits, leaving possibility for some else with equal farm or better to be the greater carry.

sniper can be squishy but this remains to be a team game. It's a minor issue that can be remedied through composition or strategies etc if need be. Many of these melee heroes often uses these escape mechanism to initiation as well, which does put them in further danger. In doing so, they operate within a window of time where they have no advantage. Furthermore, nothing is also to say there won't be situations where escape is not needed thus making increased range more advantageous.

I'm not at all saying sniper is the hardest carry and honestly used him as an example off a whim.