1. #2641
    Speaking out of context here, but I have a friend who is the only one of our group not to get an invite lol, does anyone have any running spare that they are happy to give up? (we are not Russian )

    Also, supplementary to the posts I made before - I have now become much better with Invoker and can see why he is almost always banned or picked, such versatility allows him to mold into anything your team needs. Love it.
    Quote Originally Posted by Lugo Moll View Post
    Consider this philosophical question: If Blizz fails, but noone is there to see it. Will there still be QQ?

  2. #2642
    The Patient Varix's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by fiif View Post
    Hey brand new to Dota2, messed around with some Bots games, found it easy to get in to (bit harder last hitting due to animation then LoL, but nothing a bi of practice didnt cure) and was wondering if there was any advice before i go into the game? Or webites were I can get some good guides etc (stuck to Moba fire in lol for so long, using items and builds that had no place in the game, before i actually found a site that had half decent info on playing.)
    Glad to see that you've decided to give Dota 2 a try! I'll post some links to the places I checked out when I started playing, hopefully they can help you as well.

    DotaCinema - They make hero spotlights/in-depth guides along with guides explaining the various aspects of Dota such as Lane Control, Warding, Roles etc. (They also do Top10 Weekly plays and Fails that are usually entertaining).

    Purge's Guide to Dota - "Welcome to Dota 2, you suck!". People have different opinions on Purge as a caster/person in the Dota scene but this guide he wrote is widely considered a very good resource. It's a bit of a read, but well worth if you want to learn more about Dota 2.

    Finally there is just the Dota 2 wiki. This place is like most other wiki's, features complete listings of all heroes and items. A good place to look if you just want to know what the different heroes can do.

    That's all I can think to link you right now, there are some more stuff out there. Happy researching!

    As for some general advice, just stick to the guns man. Dota 2 can be a really rough game to get into but it becomes so gratifying when you learn what to do and play with decent people.
    Last edited by Varix; 2012-09-15 at 10:23 PM.

  3. #2643
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    @Varix, Ty very much will check them all out tomorrow when I start playing. The game does feel very good from the few 1v1s i had with a friend who is also new to the game (blocking an exit with those wolfs, drove him insane:P not sure what hero i used but damn when i made that play i was so happy lol).

  4. #2644
    Pandaren Monk Kurdiern's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Grimsdott View Post
    I'm having a hard time seeing how that can be even remotely called an update.

    She looks atrocious right now.
    Update, not necessarily an upgrade.

  5. #2645
    Old God PizzaSHARK's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Sarevokcz View Post
    The manaregen? really? Orchid costs less gold, is easier to build, provides huge manaregen too, gives decent damage and AS and 5s silence and amplify damage. Sure, Bloodstone has its benefits like giving huge HP boost and the respawn, but it cost almost 5k. you wouldnt expect 5k item to be weak, would you?
    It's not even on the same level. Each charge on Bloodstone provides 1 mp/sec regen, plus a flat +200% on top of that; when you buy Bloodstone, your mana regen will instantly go from like 3-4/sec (if you made perseverance first) to like 12-14/sec... that's fucking ridiculous, and it gets worse as you get more charges. And Bloodstone's only about 800 more than Orchid, and builds from items that already provide you with a lot of health and mana, along with health and mana regen. You're missing out on damage, but you get Bloodstone on heroes whose primary focus is nuking, anyway.

    And then you consider the large health and mana boosts that come from the items you built it with, and the passive heal/respawn reduction... it's a LOT for only 5k gold and one item slot, way more than a lot of other items. The flat mana regen boost gives you heaps of mana for the earlier game, while your INT is still low, and then the +200% gives you all you'd ever need for the later phases once you have lots of INT.

    It just seems like Bloodstone's way overbudgeted... there really is no other item choice for the heroes it's usually purchased on, except maybe Rubick. You can buy other items instead of Bloodstone on them, but why would you?

    ---------- Post added 2012-09-15 at 09:43 PM ----------

    Quote Originally Posted by Finear View Post
    good advice
    suck less

    srsly getting good ravage vs decent team is so fuckin hard even with blink
    Which is why pro teams do it all the time, right? It's really not very hard when Ravage hits an entire screen and Blink Dagger basically gives you a 1200 cast range on it.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ryan Cailan Ebonheart View Post
    The best you people can do is throw insults and lay your perspective on what a real adult is onto me but I will continue to reject them. And you will try and try again, force me into submission but I will continue to press on.
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  6. #2646
    Quote Originally Posted by PizzaSHARK View Post
    It's not even on the same level. Each charge on Bloodstone provides 1 mp/sec regen, plus a flat +200% on top of that; when you buy Bloodstone, your mana regen will instantly go from like 3-4/sec (if you made perseverance first) to like 12-14/sec... that's fucking ridiculous, and it gets worse as you get more charges. And Bloodstone's only about 800 more than Orchid, and builds from items that already provide you with a lot of health and mana, along with health and mana regen. You're missing out on damage, but you get Bloodstone on heroes whose primary focus is nuking, anyway.
    Did you actually check how much other items give manaregen? I bet not.

    heroes have about 2,5 manaregen naked at 16.
    Orchid - 9,5
    Eul - 8
    Refresher - 9
    Hex - 10,5
    BS - 14

    Im sorry, but I fail to see where BS is overpowered, when its main purpose IS the regen and HP boost, while the others have actually useful utility and are easily items that can completely change the battle around.

    And then you consider the large health and mana boosts that come from the items you built it with, and the passive heal/respawn reduction... it's a LOT for only 5k gold and one item slot, way more than a lot of other items. The flat mana regen boost gives you heaps of mana for the earlier game, while your INT is still low, and then the +200% gives you all you'd ever need for the later phases once you have lots of INT.

    It just seems like Bloodstone's way overbudgeted... there really is no other item choice for the heroes it's usually purchased on, except maybe Rubick. You can buy other items instead of Bloodstone on them, but why would you?
    So what? There are lots of other items you build on heroes without even thinking about them because they are just that good for them. When was the last time you saw lycan without vlads? when was the last time you saw enigma without bkb? magina without manta? naga witout diffusal? etc
    Which is why pro teams do it all the time, right? It's really not very hard when Ravage hits an entire screen and Blink Dagger basically gives you a 1200 cast range on it.
    I dont think you know how much work they put into the Ravage or similar set-ups. they have to lure the team carefully, they need good positioning etc its not as simple as blink, ravage, win. If it was, tide would be picked all the time and I have seen enough failed ravages from IG on TI2 to know that perfect ravages arent super common on their level of play

  7. #2647
    Old God PizzaSHARK's Avatar
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    Sigh. Forums ate my post. tl;dr version:


    None of those items you listed are a first item, because they all have something lacking that has to be addressed first. Eul's etc don't provide survivability, sheepstick doesn't provide ENOUGH survivability for the cost, vlad's is highly situational, BKB is situational and gets weaker every time you use it, and so on. Orchid is an exception since it's also usually a first item, but very few heroes get it and they always have an inherent escape button. And even on that list, BS provides a LOT more mana per sec than any of the other items listed, and for less cost, too.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ryan Cailan Ebonheart View Post
    The best you people can do is throw insults and lay your perspective on what a real adult is onto me but I will continue to reject them. And you will try and try again, force me into submission but I will continue to press on.
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  8. #2648
    Quote Originally Posted by PizzaSHARK View Post
    Sigh. Forums ate my post. tl;dr version:


    None of those items you listed are a first item, because they all have something lacking that has to be addressed first. Eul's etc don't provide survivability, sheepstick doesn't provide ENOUGH survivability for the cost, vlad's is highly situational, BKB is situational and gets weaker every time you use it, and so on. Orchid is an exception since it's also usually a first item, but very few heroes get it and they always have an inherent escape button. And even on that list, BS provides a LOT more mana per sec than any of the other items listed, and for less cost, too.
    Sigh.

    TL.DR version, since I wont bother with longer one.

    Different items are different. Different items have beter synergy with diferent heroes. Your definitions of "OP" in this topic are so ridiculous I dont even know why I bothered to respond to you. I read every single post here and all you do is fucking complain about fucking everything with very fucking little facts and reasons and calling OP like TA and BS just takes the cake. Whats, next, Ghost Scepter OP? Force staff OP? Spirit Breaker OP?

  9. #2649
    Old God PizzaSHARK's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Sarevokcz View Post
    Sigh.

    TL.DR version, since I wont bother with longer one.

    Different items are different. Different items have beter synergy with diferent heroes. Your definitions of "OP" in this topic are so ridiculous I dont even know why I bothered to respond to you. I read every single post here and all you do is fucking complain about fucking everything with very fucking little facts and reasons and calling OP like TA and BS just takes the cake. Whats, next, Ghost Scepter OP? Force staff OP? Spirit Breaker OP?
    It's not my fault if you don't understand what's being written, I try to make it as clear as possible.

    Bloodstone provides more stats in a single slot than any of the listed potential alternatives. Combined with a hero whose primary balancing mechanism is limited mana, it becomes overpowered, or overperforming if you like that term more.

    Also unlike your listed alternatives, Bloodstone is commonly the very first significant item you buy on any hero who would benefit from having one, because it provides a lot of survivability and a lot of sustain as you build it. You can buy the Energy Booster to make Arcane Boots for mana and then pick up the Vitabooster or Point Booster after that for some health, and now you have the extra health and the mana recovery you need to survive well enough to finish your Bloodstone.

    You can't do that with Eul's - you need to stop for Bracers, or an Urn, or whatever along the way because Eul's doesn't give you the extra HP you need to survive the early phases of the midgame. Orchid Malevolence is great for the cost, but it's only a first item on heroes that can afford to not buy a survivability item first - Clinkz (Windwalk), Windrunner (Windrun), Broodmother (webs.) On anyone else that wants one, you need a way to survive first.

    And that's a large part of why Bloodstone's so disgusting - not only are you getting more mana regen (and stats in general) in a single slot than any of the alternatives, it's also an item you can build right away and thus easily have all those stats in the midgame instead of later.



    And I've noticed both you and Hermanni now keep screaming and raging about "no facts." What the fuck are you considering facts? Every fucking claim I make, I back up with reasoning and observations, from high level play. Where the fuck are YOUR facts? Or are you just gonna ad hominem because you realize you don't have any?
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ryan Cailan Ebonheart View Post
    The best you people can do is throw insults and lay your perspective on what a real adult is onto me but I will continue to reject them. And you will try and try again, force me into submission but I will continue to press on.
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  10. #2650
    Quote Originally Posted by PizzaSHARK View Post
    It's not my fault if you don't understand what's being written, I try to make it as clear as possible.

    Bloodstone provides more stats in a single slot than any of the listed potential alternatives. Combined with a hero whose primary balancing mechanism is limited mana, it becomes overpowered, or overperforming if you like that term more.
    Orchid or any other heavy manareg item is more than sufficient to spam spells

    Also unlike your listed alternatives, Bloodstone is commonly the very first significant item you buy on any hero who would benefit from having one, because it provides a lot of survivability and a lot of sustain as you build it. You can buy the Energy Booster to make Arcane Boots for mana and then pick up the Vitabooster or Point Booster after that for some health, and now you have the extra health and the mana recovery you need to survive well enough to finish your Bloodstone.
    So? It has its benefits, along with regen. as do all other items have their strenghts.

    You can't do that with Eul's - you need to stop for Bracers, or an Urn, or whatever along the way because Eul's doesn't give you the extra HP you need to survive the early phases of the midgame. Orchid Malevolence is great for the cost, but it's only a first item on heroes that can afford to not buy a survivability item first - Clinkz (Windwalk), Windrunner (Windrun), Broodmother (webs.) On anyone else that wants one, you need a way to survive first.
    Again, so? BS is build usually on what, 4 heroes? Because its not worth the investment on dozens of others, thats how NOT OP the item is. If anything, Orchid is so good its used even for non-int heroes.

    And that's a large part of why Bloodstone's so disgusting - not only are you getting more mana regen (and stats in general) in a single slot than any of the alternatives, it's also an item you can build right away and thus easily have all those stats in the midgame instead of later.
    you are getting zero damage, zero AS, zero movement speed. It is not universally best item, even for those 4 heroes.



    And I've noticed both you and Hermanni now keep screaming and raging about "no facts." What the fuck are you considering facts? Every fucking claim I make, I back up with reasoning and observations, from high level play. Where the fuck are YOUR facts? Or are you just gonna ad hominem because you realize you don't have any?
    I provided actual manareg numbers.. You provided... umm... "it has more stats than other items in the slot" well... where are YOUR numbers? Or what do you base your "facts" from? whats "more stats" ? whats "less stats" ? how do you compare different stats on different items? whats "sufficient manareg to spam spells" ? What are your arbitrary numbers?

  11. #2651
    After finally bothering to check Dota 2 with the thought of "Lets return to the older days" i remembered after 5 games why i jumped ship to HoN even if i had played dota for 6 years already before it was even famous, countless games, countless hours just ignored when alpha/closed beta of HoN was up in 2009 and why i left HoN before it was released without ever buying it,why i barely played LoL in Europe, while i had a level 30 US account on USA servers before LoL got so famous since the first year Europe servers were half-dead... and why i spent the whole 2011 without playing any MOBA's only to start again and jumping between Dota 2/HoN/LoL/Smite all day long.

    Russians, enough said.

    Playing Dota 2 is downright impossible for me, when i see the cave drawing language in chat i simply cant function, the bad taste i have in my mouth from the russians over the years, i simply wanna afk in the base when i see Cyrillic in chat and everyone playing in Europe knows exactly what i mean.

    Not really sure why there are so many in Europe server when they made a Russian server for them, just block them already.

    Dont ban me for stating the truth moderators, thanks.


    You can "state the truth" without so blatantly bashing an entire nation of gamers because of your anecdotal experience.
    Last edited by Sj; 2012-09-17 at 02:57 PM.

  12. #2652
    Quote Originally Posted by Sarevokcz View Post
    I provided actual manareg numbers.. You provided... umm... "it has more stats than other items in the slot" well... where are YOUR numbers? Or what do you base your "facts" from? whats "more stats" ? whats "less stats" ? how do you compare different stats on different items? whats "sufficient manareg to spam spells" ? What are your arbitrary numbers?
    It's no use, whatever logic or research you may attempt to employ will only be met with fallacy, baseless statements and hyperbole from him. Just ignore whatever he says about something being OP or laugh at it when it's something too ludicrous like when he suggested PA was too OP for Captain's Mode. Or that Bloodstone was OP.
    Manni of Paragon. Moderator of Dota 2 subforum - The golden rule: Listen to Lysah. Seriously.

  13. #2653
    Old God PizzaSHARK's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Sarevokcz View Post
    Orchid or any other heavy manareg item is more than sufficient to spam spellsSo? It has its benefits, along with regen. as do all other items have their strenghts.Again, so? BS is build usually on what, 4 heroes? Because its not worth the investment on dozens of others, thats how NOT OP the item is. If anything, Orchid is so good its used even for non-int heroes. you are getting zero damage, zero AS, zero movement speed. It is not universally best item, even for those 4 heroes.
    Orchid is just as situational as Bloodstone is. It's purchased on a very select few heroes with any consistency because they make good use of the silence and need the mana regen it provides. The difference is that Bloodstone provides more stats than Orchid does... along with damned near any other item in the game, and for less cost-per-stat, too.

    That's the point - you're getting well more than your money's worth on it. That's all.

    I provided actual manareg numbers.. You provided... umm... "it has more stats than other items in the slot" well... where are YOUR numbers? Or what do you base your "facts" from? whats "more stats" ? whats "less stats" ? how do you compare different stats on different items? whats "sufficient manareg to spam spells" ? What are your arbitrary numbers?
    The same ones you provided. You provided mana regen per second numbers, and that's all that needs to be seen to see that Bloodstone is wildly out of whack compared to other options.

    Here's a breakdown of mana regen per gold:

    Bloodstone: 0.00277
    Sheepstick: 0.00186
    Eul's: 0.00286
    Orchid: 0.00230
    Refresher: 0.00170

    Eul's provides the most regen per slot, but this assumes only 6 charges on Bloodstone; as you get more, Bloodstone becomes more and more superior. Even assuming just 6 charges the entire game (which is unlikely, but easy to work with), it's still far ahead of anything else because you then factor in the mana and HP it provides on top of the mana regen.

    Now, take Eul's out of the picture and nothing even comes close. There's a 9 point difference between Eul's and Bloodstone, but the next closest to Bloodstone is Orchid, and it's 47 points away!

    Do you understand now? Bloodstone provides too much for too little. You can do the same kind of math to see that Sange and Yasha provides too little for too much, too. If these are the facts you want to use, there's your facts.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ryan Cailan Ebonheart View Post
    The best you people can do is throw insults and lay your perspective on what a real adult is onto me but I will continue to reject them. And you will try and try again, force me into submission but I will continue to press on.
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  14. #2654
    Quote Originally Posted by potis View Post
    Russians, enough said.

    Playing Dota 2 is downright impossible for me, when i see the cave drawing language in chat i simply cant function, the bad taste i have in my mouth from the russians over the years, i simply wanna afk in the base when i see Cyrillic in chat and everyone playing in Europe knows exactly what i mean.

    Not really sure why there are so many in Europe server when they made a Russian server for them, just block them already.

    Dont ban me for stating the truth moderators, thanks.
    There's several solutions to your problems, listed from easiest to hardest.

    1) Play with friends. Game experience increased dramatically.
    2) If you lack such, add nice people from games or look for company in irc, reddit, wherever.
    3) Up your MMR.
    Manni of Paragon. Moderator of Dota 2 subforum - The golden rule: Listen to Lysah. Seriously.

  15. #2655
    Old God PizzaSHARK's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by potis View Post
    After finally bothering to check Dota 2 with the thought of "Lets return to the older days" i remembered after 5 games why i jumped ship to HoN even if i had played dota for 6 years already before it was even famous, countless games, countless hours just ignored when alpha/closed beta of HoN was up in 2009 and why i left HoN before it was released without ever buying it,why i barely played LoL in Europe, while i had a level 30 US account on USA servers before LoL got so famous since the first year Europe servers were half-dead... and why i spent the whole 2011 without playing any MOBA's only to start again and jumping between Dota 2/HoN/LoL/Smite all day long.

    Russians, enough said.

    Playing Dota 2 is downright impossible for me, when i see the cave drawing language in chat i simply cant function, the bad taste i have in my mouth from the russians over the years, i simply wanna afk in the base when i see Cyrillic in chat and everyone playing in Europe knows exactly what i mean.

    Not really sure why there are so many in Europe server when they made a Russian server for them, just block them already.

    Dont ban me for stating the truth moderators, thanks.
    I've been reporting people for not speaking English when on US servers. Communication is critical to have any chance of success at DotA and if you have two people on your team that don't share a language with anyone but each other... there's no communication, which means your time is basically being wasted.

    Valve has a dedicated Russia server as well as a dedicated South America server (which is located in Brazil.) If they can't speak English enough to communicate effectively, I don't understand why they should be on US servers, especially when they would have lower pings on the servers located in their own country.

    ---------- Post added 2012-09-16 at 06:38 AM ----------

    Quote Originally Posted by Hermanni View Post
    There's several solutions to your problems, listed from easiest to hardest.

    1) Play with friends. Game experience increased dramatically.
    2) If you lack such, add nice people from games or look for company in irc, reddit, wherever.
    3) Up your MMR.
    MMR is irrelevant. Past a certain point the system just tries to get both teams to have the same numerical value. But 10+10+10+10+10 is the same 50 as 4+16+6+12+12, and it's hard to categorize players simply by a number value in a game like DotA, anyway.

    You can have a game be effective over at 15 minutes because you got a complete newbie (or just really awful player) on your team that fed their carry nonstop and wouldn't swap lanes. Or, they listened and swapped lanes and continued feeding anyway.

    Besides, people say the way you gauge MMR is by looking at the live games page, and I've seen shitawful players in the top 3 games with reliable frequency. Either this mean the system is fucked, or MMR means nothing, because if those are the best players playing the game... well, I don't know how else you can explain it.
    Last edited by PizzaSHARK; 2012-09-16 at 11:39 AM.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ryan Cailan Ebonheart View Post
    The best you people can do is throw insults and lay your perspective on what a real adult is onto me but I will continue to reject them. And you will try and try again, force me into submission but I will continue to press on.
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  16. #2656
    The Patient Varix's Avatar
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    So arguing aside, do any of you MMO-Champion people want to group and play some games?

  17. #2657
    Quote Originally Posted by PizzaSHARK View Post
    MMR is irrelevant. Past a certain point the system just tries to get both teams to have the same numerical value. But 10+10+10+10+10 is the same 50 as 4+16+6+12+12, and it's hard to categorize players simply by a number value in a game like DotA, anyway.

    You can have a game be effective over at 15 minutes because you got a complete newbie (or just really awful player) on your team that fed their carry nonstop and wouldn't swap lanes. Or, they listened and swapped lanes and continued feeding anyway.

    Besides, people say the way you gauge MMR is by looking at the live games page, and I've seen shitawful players in the top 3 games with reliable frequency. Either this mean the system is fucked, or MMR means nothing, because if those are the best players playing the game... well, I don't know how else you can explain it.
    Could you get me a source on that, because I've pretty much never seen extreme skill disparity without people being in a group together. Meanwhile I'm assuming BS, because I've never heard of MM working like that.
    Last edited by Hermanni; 2012-09-16 at 11:53 AM.
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  18. #2658
    Quote Originally Posted by Hermanni View Post
    Could you get me a source on that, because I've pretty much never seen major skill disparity without people being in a group together.
    To answer both your posts.

    1)I did play with friends, for 4-6 years, at least 2-3 5v5 games daily even had LAN's most the time since we were like 12 people or more sometimes, hence why Dota was awesome, after that, its called growing up and having 5 people available isnt so easy, had to play alone, not possible with the amount of bads, jumped ship as i said.

    2)Yeah, sure i will add people when i find them, i just restarted Dota after literally April 2009, havent touched it in WC3 since then, and i only tried Dota 2 cause i am fed up with Russians in HoN, you cant really find "good players" 6 games in and i will probably go back to HoN very soon, there is 1-2 russians per 5-10 games, Dota 2 has averagely 2 russians per game.

    3)Upping my MMR isnt possible when out of the 6 games i have in 3 of them all the other 4 in my team were, Russian/Russian/Russian/Ukranian, Russian/Russian/Polish/<Someone that spoke english thank god!> and Russian/Russian/Russian/Russian, its just not possible.

    My latest game with 4 Russians in my team, i went jungle, they had English names i was like "Whoa, no russian", 10 mins in, 0-5 0-4 0-4 0-3, i was the only one 0-0 because simply i couldnt even get out of the jungle, game was already lost, its not possible to play with Russians, end of story, when i asked "How is that possible" a swarm of cave drawing letters started along with horrible english, god cant even make those letters english words.
    Last edited by potis; 2012-09-16 at 12:11 PM.

  19. #2659
    Quote Originally Posted by PizzaSHARK View Post
    It's not my fault if you don't understand what's being written, I try to make it as clear as possible.

    Bloodstone provides more stats in a single slot than any of the listed potential alternatives. Combined with a hero whose primary balancing mechanism is limited mana, it becomes overpowered, or overperforming if you like that term more.

    Also unlike your listed alternatives, Bloodstone is commonly the very first significant item you buy on any hero who would benefit from having one, because it provides a lot of survivability and a lot of sustain as you build it. You can buy the Energy Booster to make Arcane Boots for mana and then pick up the Vitabooster or Point Booster after that for some health, and now you have the extra health and the mana recovery you need to survive well enough to finish your Bloodstone.

    You can't do that with Eul's - you need to stop for Bracers, or an Urn, or whatever along the way because Eul's doesn't give you the extra HP you need to survive the early phases of the midgame. Orchid Malevolence is great for the cost, but it's only a first item on heroes that can afford to not buy a survivability item first - Clinkz (Windwalk), Windrunner (Windrun), Broodmother (webs.) On anyone else that wants one, you need a way to survive first.

    And that's a large part of why Bloodstone's so disgusting - not only are you getting more mana regen (and stats in general) in a single slot than any of the alternatives, it's also an item you can build right away and thus easily have all those stats in the midgame instead of later.



    And I've noticed both you and Hermanni now keep screaming and raging about "no facts." What the fuck are you considering facts? Every fucking claim I make, I back up with reasoning and observations, from high level play. Where the fuck are YOUR facts? Or are you just gonna ad hominem because you realize you don't have any?
    Sorry to say, but it's a L2P issue.

    Hear me out.

    You said earlier certain heros NEED bloodstone to be effective, and that they suck without it (your personal experience), yet you also said you get facts from observing high level play? So it's both then? (Pub and Pro play?)

    But then that's a lie, since Leshrac, Storm Spirit and others can work perfectly fine without Bloodstone, as seen in TI2 plenty of times, like Na´Vi.AA playing Leshrac as hard support (Since he is their hard support player).

    So BS is OP in pub play then? Well a lot of players in pubs consider Ursa OP? Is he?

    Just to counter a few more things you said, without quoting them directly though(Since this is information gathered over several of your posts):

    "Eul's isn't a item you go for first like Blood Stone since it doesn't give survivability" - I can give you one that can rush it after Phase Boots, that is Invoker (Mostly goes for Force Staff, but not Eul's that uncommon). And Eul's and Scythe I would almost say give better survivability than BS(And Force Staff, although that is not in this discussion, I thought I would mention it), because any hero who has a blink dagger it can make you near immortal, although especially crazy on Puck(Eul's), or you get a 3+ second breather (Scythe, and Orchid as long as they don't have bash or something) where you can say... TP back safely?

    "BS is disgusting cause it gives so much mana regen" - Yup, it does. But only if you are not dying, so it's a bad item if you already behind. So you need to lead or at least be even for it pay off....AND you need to get the BS early for it really be worth it, that seems like a lot of 'IF's' doesn't? Now I can tell you a item that is insane if you are in the lead on a specific hero, albeit unesscary risk if you are leading, and that's rapier on Skeleton King. (Or even if you are behind and do a last ditch-all-in). Is rapier OP?

    "BKB is situational" - Ehh. BS is ten times more situational.

    Anyway, that's it.. I will leave you with a quick list off the top of my head of heros that use Orchid, and who uses Bloodstone.(Like a valid choice which has proven to be stable item pickup to my knowledge, not cause someone picked it up once and won)

    Bloodstone:

    Leshrac
    Storm Spirit
    Necrolyte
    Zeus (Meh, rather have mobility on him since he has no escape mechanism, and is not build to tank like say a necrolyte)
    Ogre Magi
    Death Prophet

    Didn't include on purpose:

    Rubick (I just never see it in pro play, and I can see why. Force staff into Blink into Eul's just seems to much better IMO)

    Now to Orchid:

    Clinkz
    Broodmother
    QoP (Rare to get this over Scythe, but it is a lot cheaper and has a lot cheaper components to build up, so good if are low on cash and still need to shut down a AM or Storm etc).
    Storm Spirit
    Outworld Destroyer
    Bounty Hunter (Pretty rare, but he can work like clinkz in shutting down blinkers)
    Carry Silencer
    Windrunner
    Nyx Assassin
    ...Actually any hero if none of the above are present(Since obviously you would prefer it on one of them) if you have nothing to shut down blinkers or even invis heros, although you can always get dust for the latter, it's still a valid use though.

    Okay I may have forgotten some(just formed this list off the top of my head), but we clearly see which camp wins, at least in this scenario.

    We can agree on one thing though, S&Y is really bad. It's only a stable choice on one hero, and he isn't even in DotA 2 yet.

  20. #2660
    Quote Originally Posted by PizzaSHARK View Post
    Which is why pro teams do it all the time, right? It's really not very hard when Ravage hits an entire screen and Blink Dagger basically gives you a 1200 cast range on it.
    no?
    if enemy is expecting you shit tons of patience and good positioning is required to get a decent ravage
    its not that east to catch 5 ppl inside and get good follow up
    most of the times good ravage happens when your enemy fucks up something and cluster (e.g. due to the lack of communication on pubs) not because blink tide is OP

    ---------- Post added 2012-09-16 at 11:37 PM ----------

    sorry PizzaSHARK reddit wont help you smoke screen is not OP but, here is forum full of ppl with same issues as you
    Last edited by Finear; 2012-09-16 at 11:40 PM.

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