[Megathread] DotA 2

[Lysah]

I've never gotten a really straight answer on why a hero would rise up or fall down without changes to the game itself; just because a given team discovered a gimmick that took other teams off guard doesn't mean that new gimmick is the best way to play, or that the previous ways of playing have somehow been invalidated.

You might recall how I've explained that pros do NOT try new things in tournaments when money is on the line. DotA is pretty balanced, no hero is really that much better than any other, and every playstyle has a counter. You can stop wolf from jungling, in fact, a while back wolf was a joke pick in competitive play for this reason. AM has also gone through his joke pick phase, as well as morphling, as has been said.

Although, morphling didn't used to get free stats from learning morph, which is the main change that took him from "meh" to "GG they picked morph." His ability to farm used to be anywhere from low to extremely terrible and he was shut down in lane by a number of heroes. Now he just morphs agility at level 3 and has 90 damage, he can just morph strength the second he gets jumped on. Silence needs to turn morph strength off and I'll be happy.

Heroes like Tiny have been huge in the past, and you saw how quickly he got banned in TI2 when he got used again. It's not really about gimmicks, think of it this way. DotA is a giant game a rock, paper, scissors. Currently, the pros have rock down to an art. They both pick rock and they see who can be a better rock. When someone figures out how to play paper, they're going to start crushing rock over and over and over. You think the old rock players are going to start playing scissors? Nope, they're going to start copying paper and trying to simply be a better paper. Trying to come up with new strategies in the middle of tournaments is how you lose a lot of money.

Heroes like Invoker will probably always be huge picks because they aren't really countered. Carries will come and go, however, as will supports. Hybrids are generally just too good at what they do to ever be bad picks by definition. Support carries are incredibly popular right now, but they always will be to some degree, just because the concept of someone who can put out consistent and reliable CC while also doing damage is exactly what you need to do to secure kills.

[Kaynot]

Heroes like Tiny have been huge in the past, and you saw how quickly he got banned in TI2 when he got used again. It's not really about gimmicks, think of it this way. DotA is a giant game a rock, paper, scissors. Currently, the pros have rock down to an art. They both pick rock and they see who can be a better rock. When someone figures out how to play paper, they're going to start crushing rock over and over and over. You think the old rock players are going to start playing scissors? Nope, they're going to start copying paper and trying to simply be a better paper. Trying to come up with new strategies in the middle of tournaments is how you lose a lot of money.

I have to disagree here, most of the pro teams(esp chinese) do indeed draft only from the certain hero pool, but there are plenty of teams who come up with their own thing like Na´vi did with Juggernaut and Void picks during TI2.
Or for example Axe was picked several times before TI2, during Defense or Dreamcast im not sure which one anymore.But every once in a while teams do draft unusually.


On topic of Omni, during one of the talkdota´s someone asked Puppey why he wasnt picked http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=l_Q0AW0xRNk 08:20

[Lysah]

You still don't see SB much.

[Demidov]

How do you guys deal with the amount of russians lately? I'm not saying every one of them is a bad player, but when I go out for a match, I usually get put in a russian team where the guy calls mid before he even picks, proceeds to feed and just talks and swears in russian with another-two russians, thinking people understand them.

[Janir]

Lastly, the game is really slow in comparison to the Hon/LoL. Heroes have long turn times, spells don't cast instantly, and it feels sluggish and slowed down. This used to be a good thing, but after playing HoN competitively for 2 years it is tough going back.

This is the reason why I don't enjoy it as much as HoN or LoL

[PizzaSHARK]

I have to disagree here, most of the pro teams(esp chinese) do indeed draft only from the certain hero pool, but there are plenty of teams who come up with their own thing like Na´vi did with Juggernaut and Void picks during TI2.
Or for example Axe was picked several times before TI2, during Defense or Dreamcast im not sure which one anymore.But every once in a while teams do draft unusually.


On topic of Omni, during one of the talkdota´s someone asked Puppey why he wasnt picked http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=l_Q0AW0xRNk 08:20

So if I heard that right, Omni isn't used because he takes too much effort to play?

[Wapetufo]

Hi guys, I goe invited to the beta a couple of weeks ago, but unfortunately my PC at the time could not run it well (yeah it was trash). I have another pc now, however I've run into a problem. My steam library was empty on the new pc, even after verification, I searched "Dota 2" in the store and it said I already owned the game (I assumed because of the beta), I downloaded it but it's only the spectator client and apparently I need to purchase the game. Has something changed? is the beta over? Or is this a bug?

[yallaballa]

Hi guys, I goe invited to the beta a couple of weeks ago, but unfortunately my PC at the time could not run it well (yeah it was trash). I have another pc now, however I've run into a problem. My steam library was empty on the new pc, even after verification, I searched "Dota 2" in the store and it said I already owned the game (I assumed because of the beta), I downloaded it but it's only the spectator client and apparently I need to purchase the game. Has something changed? is the beta over? Or is this a bug?

I haven't actually played in a while, but watching a game in the beta (not the spectator thing) worked fine and i didn't see any news about it going out of beta testing.
Are all you games in the library gone? Maybe its a sync issue?

[Wapetufo]

I haven't actually played in a while, but watching a game in the beta (not the spectator thing) worked fine and i didn't see any news about it going out of beta testing.
Are all you games in the library gone? Maybe its a sync issue?

yeah my library is empty.

[Pickled Eyebrows]

yeah my library is empty.

And you're 100% certain that you were actually invited to the beta? You see, a while ago Valve added a spectator client for Dota 2, which allowed people not actually in the beta to install the game and watch games from the client. They did this to boost hype for The International 2.

Just make absolutely sure that you actually got invited into the beta and not just got the spectator client, because if you got it "a few weeks ago" then it matches the release of the spectator client perfectly.

Anyway, the game is still in beta, so if you actually got an invite you should be able to get in, contact valve support would be my advice. They're usually pretty good with this stuff.

[Wapetufo]

And you're 100% certain that you were actually invited to the beta? You see, a while ago Valve added a spectator client for Dota 2, which allowed people not actually in the beta to install the game and watch games from the client. They did this to boost hype for The International 2.

Just make absolutely sure that you actually got invited into the beta and not just got the spectator client, because if you got it "a few weeks ago" then it matches the release of the spectator client perfectly.

Anyway, the game is still in beta, so if you actually got an invite you should be able to get in, contact valve support would be my advice. They're usually pretty good with this stuff.

I played the game on my old PC.

[Orochiro]

Review of Dota2 from PC Gamer:

http://www.pcgamer.com/review/dota-2-review/3/
It isn't a real quality review though because the author just tells his personal experiences from a few games.

[PizzaSHARK]

Review of Dota2 from PC Gamer:

http://www.pcgamer.com/review/dota-2-review/3/
It isn't a real quality review though because the author just tells his personal experiences from a few games.

It's a pretty fair review. I'd drop the score considerably due to the ridiculously toxic community and, in my opinion, weak method of dealing with them (LP games are often more fun and better-matched than regular games!), but Dota 2 isn't "done," yet. There's a lot to learn, but it's Valve - there will be tutorials, and those tutorials will be awesome. And failing that, lots of free info on the internet.

I'm amused as hell that the reviewer, being a complete noob to Dota, is apparently only playing carries.

[Lysah]

Review of Dota2 from PC Gamer:

http://www.pcgamer.com/review/dota-2-review/3/
It isn't a real quality review though because the author just tells his personal experiences from a few games.

After 100 hours of Dota 2, I can’t even see the bottom. I’m not even sure there is one.

Silly statement, but I'm glad he made. It's nice to see someone play both LoL and DotA and recognize just how vastly more detailed DotA is.

Unfortunately, it does have a ceiling, one that is relatively low (in my opinion). It can leave veterans such as myself extremely frustrated in almost 100% of their games due to allies who just can't compare. That's team games I guess, but DotA is really one of the easier games I have played that can still consider itself competitive. Being good doesn't require insane APM, it doesn't require awesome micro, it doesn't require huge psychological strategy. All it really requires is knowledge, as the author of the article pointed out, a gigantic colossal mountain of knowledge.

[Hermanni]

It's a pretty fair review. I'd drop the score considerably due to the ridiculously toxic community and, in my opinion, weak method of dealing with them (LP games are often more fun and better-matched than regular games!), but Dota 2 isn't "done," yet. There's a lot to learn, but it's Valve - there will be tutorials, and those tutorials will be awesome. And failing that, lots of free info on the internet.

I'm amused as hell that the reviewer, being a complete noob to Dota, is apparently only playing carries.

So you think the community should affect the review of the game? Have you actually ever played a game with a better community? It's exactly the same anywhere on the internet, but because in dota you depend on your teammates and communication you'll just notice it easier and the rotten people always stand out.

And you're really mistaken if you think Valve or anyone else will start handing out permanent bans to people who behave ill, partially because almost anyone does it from time to time. And you think bragging about reporting 200 people for "bad manners" is ever going to do anything except get all your future reports flagged as spam, which I can guarantee has already happened. The day they start banning the shit of the community, you should be first.

[Lysah]

Actually, I would argue that DotA is one of the nicer communities. In my experience, LoL is getting worse than DotA, and the more casual games always seem to attract, well, casuals...who often times end up being the 12 year old CoD players that make the internet such a dirty place. I think DotA is sort of self resistant to this behavior because it promotes an elite community due to having such a cliff of a learning curve.

Of course, it IS still the internet.

[Hermanni]

It's apparently really hard to grasp so here's how you report players with the incredibly complex system:

Text abuse

Reportable: "OMG YOU PIECE OF SHIT OF SHIT I HOPE YOU GET CANCER AND DIE AND I WILL SHIT ON YOUR GRAVE" 10x in chat all game long. Time stamp and description added to the report.
Not reportable: "omg noob mid gg" "this pudge is so bad"

Voice abuse

Same as above but in VOIP.

Intentional Ability Abuse

Reportable: Chen continuosly teleporting you to base, Tiny Tossing you to enemies. Add timestamp to report.
Not reportable: Tiny tossing you once by accident, Dazzle not graving you.

Intentional Feeding

Reportable: Player declaring "mid or feed" and suicing repeatedly to enemy towers when his demands are not met. Timestamp the exact moment they declared in chat that they will feed on purpose and when the feeding began.
Not reportable: noob pudge went 1-16 pls report


Other things that aren't reportable: Leaving games, going afk for a few minutes in the well. That's what the abandonment tracking is for.
Other things that are reportable: Staying in well for 10+ minutes while occassionally leaving to dodge AFK detection, counts as IAA. Leaving games and destroying your items or dropping items to enemies.


Anything that isn't here that isn't obvious griefing is probably not reportable, and feeding bullshit reports will probably end up with your future reports going straight to trashcan. If you did a 100 reports without seeing the pop-up, this is more than likely.

[Kurumi]

Actually, I would argue that DotA is one of the nicer communities. In my experience, LoL is getting worse than DotA, and the more casual games always seem to attract, well, casuals...who often times end up being the 12 year old CoD players that make the internet such a dirty place. I think DotA is sort of self resistant to this behavior because it promotes an elite community due to having such a cliff of a learning curve.

Of course, it IS still the internet.

I can't say how much I agree with you. Actually, since I started playing DotA 2 , nobody called me a newbie and such, even if I was a complete idiot. Some of them even taught me how to & shit.

About the lol community, I don't know what to say. I'd post some screenshots and show you how shitty it is.

[yallaballa]

The biggest problem i have when playing Dota2 is probably the damn shop and courier. Sure, im a noob, but its like they made some things much harder than it could be, just to make the already steep learning curve even steeper. The shops default interface setting is weird and i cant figure out how to save it. Some item combinations from base shop, side shop and secret shop, that can turn into unexpected results is annoying. But i feel i got the shop pretty much mastered.

The little courier bugger, well... motherfuck.
Even picking heroes is a mess and saving settings doesn't work.
I really hope they fix some things and add other tools to help us uninitiated someday and im pretty sure they will.

Interesting that the PC Gamer review mentions how much deeper Dota2 is, or seems to be, than LoL. Thats exactly how i feel as well but i cant really point out why. BTW, I dont want to start a LoL vs Dota2 thing.

For now i like to play the "easy" support and gank heroes hoping i get carried but if the carry fails he usually gets the blame and not me. x2

[PizzaSHARK]

So you think the community should affect the review of the game?

Not for every game, but for a game like Dota, where you're stuck in a game with four other people for 30-45 minutes and are punished for leaving early? Yeah, I think it matters, enough so that I think the game's score should take the community into account.

After all, when someone fires up the game and queues for a match, they will be dealing with that community literally every single time they play.

Have you actually ever played a game with a better community?

ANY game with private servers, where the players can keep the garbage out rather than having to rely on slow, inconsistent automated systems and anonymous reporting to do it.

It's exactly the same anywhere on the internet, but because in dota you depend on your teammates and communication you'll just notice it easier and the rotten people always stand out.

Agreed. You're going to notice the douchebags a lot more when you're being teamed up with them (this is also what made pubbing battlegrounds in WoW so frustrating 80% of the time, for example.) It becomes frustration cubed when you're teamed up with them and you don't have a way of getting away from it - you can't switch teams, you can't change servers, and if you decide you've had it with them and leave early, you're (correctly) punished for it.

And you're really mistaken if you think Valve or anyone else will start handing out permanent bans to people who behave ill, partially because almost anyone does it from time to time. And you think bragging about reporting 200 people for "bad manners" is ever going to do anything except get all your future reports flagged as spam, which I can guarantee has already happened. The day they start banning the shit of the community, you should be first.

Why? Because I expect people on the internet to treat each other with some fucking decency and civility?

---------- Post added 2012-09-23 at 12:08 PM ----------

It's apparently really hard to grasp so here's how you report players with the incredibly complex system:

Text abuse
"this pudge is so bad"

Counts as harassment. Are you saying that harassment should be tolerated?

Additionally: shouldn't there be an actual punishment? I've played low priority games as a result of bailing out of awful games on occasion and, on the whole, they're no worse than regular MM games and frequently better. Sure, you run into the usual trashmouth Russians who do nothing but flame and rage (interchangeable with Brazilians, but in my experience BRs tend to just stay quiet most of the time), but I run into those on a fairly consistent basis in regular matchmaking, too.

Really, it seems like the only difference between LP and regular queue is that LP queues are a little bit longer. I've heard people say that if your regular queue goes long enough (I've had some pretty long ones, 5+ minutes with the search bar being almost completely full), it'll start pulling people from LP; that seems far-fetched (isn't LP supposed to be a punishment?), but it's believable when you spent six minutes in a regular MM queue and wound up with a team of Brazilians.