1. #2741
    I just played rhasta yesterday. Dat 19-19-X score. Couldn't hold team up long enough for PL to end the game, though we got close with 3 dead weight allies.
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  2. #2742
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    Quote Originally Posted by Aleksej89 View Post
    In Dota (and dota 2) support type of heroes are expected (and even demanded) to spend even over 80% of their gold income (which is VERY low) on wards, potions, teleport scrolls, other consumables - not just for themselves, but for all the carries/gankers that need to save up their own money.

    You, as a support/initiator/pusher and even a ganker, are expected to give gold, limb and life to protect and serve your carry - who in turn will carry you to victory, assuming he knows what he is doing.
    It is a specific and potentially infuriating experience, since (as a non-carry) you are literally less important - even a lesser life form - than your carry.
    This is pretty much exactly the same as LoL, I'm not sure what you're talking about.

  3. #2743
    Titan PizzaSHARK's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Aleksej89 View Post
    A word of warning to all who consider trying out DOTA 2 when it comes out, this game has nothing to do with LoL as far as gameplay goes.

    In HoN any hero, even a mage like Veigar or a healer like Soraka, can get fed and "out dps" carries - not just that, but in LoL every hero can scale very well and benefits greatly from items.

    In Dota (and dota 2) support type of heroes are expected (and even demanded) to spend even over 80% of their gold income (which is VERY low) on wards, potions, teleport scrolls, other consumables - not just for themselves, but for all the carries/gankers that need to save up their own money.

    You, as a support/initiator/pusher and even a ganker, are expected to give gold, limb and life to protect and serve your carry - who in turn will carry you to victory, assuming he knows what he is doing.
    It is a specific and potentially infuriating experience, since (as a non-carry) you are literally less important - even a lesser life form - than your carry.

    Hence the saying goes, LoL is for casuals (where everyone wants a "kinda equal" role/chance/importance in the team) while Dota is for a tad more dedicated crowd that do not mind doing 45 minutes of "slaving" to your carry in order to win.
    In pubs supports rarely play as pure babysitters. In fact a lot of supports are extremely aggressive and spend a very large amount of their time roaming for ganks or participating in a trilane setup, which is basically designed to murder the enemy hero(es) in that lane.

    More, because spells in Dota are strong compared to HP levels (as opposed to LoL, where you have to stack AD or AP in order to bolster spells to keep up with hero HP levels), all "true" supports are relatively item-independent, which is what allows them to let their carries get all the farm while still being useful.

    And, no, a support cannot out-carry a carry in the late game, and this is by design - it's partly to make up for supports being comparatively strong for the first half of the game, where carries tend to be little more than glorified melee creeps/ranged creeps.
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  4. #2744
    Supports with reliable stuns can always match a carry without one depending on items. See what a guinsoo/eth/dagon 5/scepter/refresher Lina or Lion can do to a carry some day. Will anyone ever farm that in game? No...but that doesn't mean supports can't be retarded strong late game, they just aren't. Because they don't need to be. A Lion with all of that might be able to do 18,000 damage to somebody before they can even fight back but it doesn't matter, he will do relatively piss damage to towers compared to a Slithice of the same gold.
    Win and live. Lose and die.
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  5. #2745
    Quote Originally Posted by PizzaSHARK View Post
    And, no, a support cannot out-carry a carry in the late game, and this is by design - it's partly to make up for supports being comparatively strong for the first half of the game, where carries tend to be little more than glorified melee creeps/ranged creeps.
    Some "supports" like Shadow Demon,Dark Seer,Invoker,very lucky Ogre Magi with Dagon 5 or Krob actually could do that

  6. #2746
    Quote Originally Posted by Aleksej89 View Post
    It is a specific and potentially infuriating experience, since (as a non-carry) you are literally less important - even a lesser life form - than your carry.
    I really REALLY disagree with you there.

    I'm an long time support player, and for me the role is rewarding, and not once in games I've felt like a lesser life form. Warding the shit out of everything to control map, harassing enemy heroes back in lane and buying your carry the gold that he fucking loves, helping you mid with rune-control, potentialy(depends on heroes) disabling/locking out of fights the enemy heroes. There is so much one can do as support, and seeing you carry get ultrakill at 35 minutes and knowing that you got him there is imho more rewarding expieriance that actualy getting the ultrakill with carry. But maybe that's just me.

    Quote Originally Posted by Kaynot View Post
    "supports" like ... ,Dark Seer,Invoker,very lucky Ogre Magi with Dagon 5 or Krob actually could do that
    Supports with dagon 5. Okay, doom is coming @ 21st December, I'm convinced.

  7. #2747
    Quote Originally Posted by Lysah View Post
    Supports with reliable stuns can always match a carry without one depending on items. See what a guinsoo/eth/dagon 5/scepter/refresher Lina or Lion can do to a carry some day. Will anyone ever farm that in game? No...but that doesn't mean supports can't be retarded strong late game, they just aren't. Because they don't need to be. A Lion with all of that might be able to do 18,000 damage to somebody before they can even fight back but it doesn't matter, he will do relatively piss damage to towers compared to a Slithice of the same gold.
    Except that neither Lina or Lion are supports.
    And Lina hasn't got a particularly reliable stun.

  8. #2748
    >Lion.
    >Lina.
    >Not supports.

    You what, mate.

  9. #2749
    Lion does need some more levels than average support to be entirely effective, but yea, can be played as one np.

  10. #2750
    Fluffy Kitten llDemonll's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by PizzaSHARK View Post
    SB would be a great pick if he fit into the meta better, and wasn't hard countered by magic immunity. MoM is really common on him, but in my opinion it's a lot better to get a quick BKB after the essentials so they can't stop you from charging them, and then follow that up with a Mjollnir for some magic damage, some AOE for pushing/counterpushing, and the attack speed. Maelstrom's really cheap so it could be a midway item to get between your essentials and finishing BKB.
    B-b-b-b-b-but.....I love SB in pubs! And I even let Pudge mid

    I also like to think I play a decent Dazzle

    With SB I wasn't sure what to build because usually I don't have an excess amount of gold so after I had MoM, boots, and Assault Curiass I built Yasha for the Atk speed and then had 2.5k so built Sange for the hell of it, then Sacred Relic was very last because I had extra money and needed to get rid of it
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  11. #2751
    Titan PizzaSHARK's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Strah View Post
    Except that neither Lina or Lion are supports.
    And Lina hasn't got a particularly reliable stun.
    wut

    Lion and Lina are supports, and Lina was used several times in TI2, even up into the winners bracket matches and I think even the grand finals.

    ---------- Post added 2012-09-25 at 11:05 AM ----------

    Quote Originally Posted by llDemonll View Post
    B-b-b-b-b-but.....I love SB in pubs! And I even let Pudge mid

    I also like to think I play a decent Dazzle

    With SB I wasn't sure what to build because usually I don't have an excess amount of gold so after I had MoM, boots, and Assault Curiass I built Yasha for the Atk speed and then had 2.5k so built Sange for the hell of it, then Sacred Relic was very last because I had extra money and needed to get rid of it
    MoM isn't worth having without a BKB... any competent team will just immediately focus you the second they see the animation. Void can get away with it (kinda) due to Chronosphere but even then it's not ideal. You're much better off buying an early hyperstone for attack speed; between it and treads you'll have plenty of attack speed and the hyperstone will build into Mjollnir or Cuirass later.

    Yasha isn't really a good buy on SB because he's not really a hero that benefits hugely from Manta Style, since his main role is stunlocking people and illusions thankfully can't proc his stuns. Sange is a good pick to build into Heaven's Halberd, since it makes you much tankier and allows you to completely screw the enemy carry once their BKB is down. Sange and Yasha is an item you should never build, it's far too expensive for the weak benefits it provides. If you want Manta Style, you build Manta Style and don't even bother with a Sange. If you want Heaven's Halberd, there's no reason to waste money on a Yasha.

    Late game you usually want to hang onto money for buyback if you can afford it, especially if you're the carry or playing a critical role like anti-push and your being alive is the only reason they can't push rax successfully (see: Keeper of the Light.) Otherwise I would've gone for durability over damage; SB's role past in the late game is to pick some unfortunate victim on the enemy team and keep them stunned until the cows come home, and the harder you are to kill, the better you can fulfill that role (which is also why BKB is so crucial for him; you can't stunlock someone if you're too busy being a chicken.)
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ryan Cailan Ebonheart View Post
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  12. #2752
    Lion and Lina can be supports, but neither has to be. Lion is pretty awful as a hard support actually, that guy deserves a solo lane. I hate it when people think heroes can only fill or have been designed to fill only one role.

    Also, being support isn't just wardbitching alone. As support you're essential to your team's map control and responsible for setting up ganks and pushes, pressuring multiple lanes and counter-initiating enemy aggression. Your abilities aren't limited to your items (which is the defining trait of a good support hero) so you can do a lot in late-game teamfights - Even very late in a long game a great Nether Swap can end a game or a naked Shadow Demon can duel and kill the enemy carry. A few cheap items combined with good positioning can also make you very hard to kill for even the most fed carry.
    Last edited by Hermanni; 2012-09-25 at 06:24 PM.



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  13. #2753
    Quote Originally Posted by Lycoris View Post

    TLDR: Supports in LoL are weakasfuck.
    Yeah, no...sorry - but you have very little idea of what you're talking about when it comes to what a support can do. It may not necessarily come from damage...but CC, sustain, damage buffs, etc can be just as important.

    I main support in my organized 5s team and I can say with utmost confidence that we are not "weakasfuck." In fact, I am often a key/deciding factor in winning a given team fight.

    If you're speaking strictly team fight damage, then sure...I'll give you that one (albeit weak and at times...pointless).
    Last edited by Toxigen; 2012-09-25 at 06:52 PM.

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  14. #2754
    Quote Originally Posted by Toxigen View Post
    Yeah, no...sorry - but you have very little idea of what you're talking about when it comes to what a support can do. It may not necessarily come from damage...but CC, sustain, damage buffs, etc can be just as important.

    I main support in my organized 5s team and I can say with utmost confidence that we are not "weakasfuck." In fact, I am often a key/deciding factor in winning a given team fight.
    What is your DotA experience?

  15. #2755
    Quote Originally Posted by Lysah View Post
    Supports with reliable stuns can always match a carry without one depending on items. See what a guinsoo/eth/dagon 5/scepter/refresher Lina or Lion can do to a carry some day. Will anyone ever farm that in game? No...but that doesn't mean supports can't be retarded strong late game, they just aren't. Because they don't need to be. A Lion with all of that might be able to do 18,000 damage to somebody before they can even fight back but it doesn't matter, he will do relatively piss damage to towers compared to a Slithice of the same gold.
    yeah right...

  16. #2756
    Herald of the Titans Muzual's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Lycoris View Post
    What is your DotA experience?
    Why should that matter? You said supports in LoL are weakasfuck. You didn't say they were weaker than dota supports so dota experience is irrelevant there

  17. #2757
    Never underestimate burst and control of Lion/Lina, especially with scythe. Lina's stun is hard to use for a reason, it deals good damage, and has extremely low cd, so you need a slow, stun or cc before it. And while Lion could use xp from solo lane, he works extremely well with any lane partner, and in double stun lane you can easily go for first blood at lvl 2 or 3.

    Also, regarding supports, point of dota is to win the game, and good support makes his entire team better by warding, buying chicken, and all stuff that are sadly neglected with "solo mid PLS" people out here Personally, i get much more satisfaction from great teamplay, than 20-0 kill ratio.

    Last but not least, most support heroes are extremely item independent, so you can easily fill a hole/niche your team needs without any impact on your build order, i find flexibility extremely fun.

    PS. Dazzle for life^^

  18. #2758
    Quote Originally Posted by Muzual View Post
    Why should that matter? You said supports in LoL are weakasfuck. You didn't say they were weaker than dota supports so dota experience is irrelevant there
    A support in DotA is, in early to mid, comparative or better than a carry.
    A support in LoL is, in early to mid, still weaker than any other member on the team. (With special exceptions like pre-6 WW, arguably Poppy, etc)

    I said supports were weak because supports are weak, they absolutely cannot hold their own. I asked about his DotA experience because frankly LoL support players seem to be completely unaware of the difference in powerlevels between the games.
    Last edited by Zefie; 2012-09-26 at 09:19 AM.

  19. #2759

  20. #2760
    I don't know if this is working as intended but had two frustratring moments:
    1) Was QoP and with BkB activated Silencer's ulti went trough my BkB
    2) Used Hex on a Clinkz and he was able to go INVIS right after.
    Apart from that the game is awesome, to bad I meet so many bad players which ruin my mood completly and makes me stop playing for few days after which I start again.

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