1. #2801
    The Patient hellgrazer's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Lysah View Post
    Remove the stat gain from picking the ability morph in the first place and Morph is instantly rebalanced. The issue is not how ungodly good he is once farmed - it's that you can't really do much to stop him from getting there. PA is just as ungodly good but shutting her down is, let's be honest, pretty easy, despite her 1800 range spam CSing ability. The biggest issue with morph is that he can morph agility at level 1 and sit on 80 damage. You take Drow's awesome last hitting ability and give it to a hero who can turn that damage into 1500 health and blink away when he's ganked.

    Before they added stats to morph skill, morph had a very below average lane phase and was not that hard to beat. People like me went wave/stats for farming and we didn't enter the game until ~30, just like all the other hyper carries.
    I honestly think that the 3 agility he currently gains when picking morph will make such a big difference.Like you said , the problem is that you can't stop him from farming , but thats because he can just push a lane to his hearts content because if any1 ganks him he can just Waveform or replicate away. The only reliable way to kill him is to cahin stun , but thats countered by the fact that he can morph heal faster than most people do damage ( remember you won't gank as 5 in the early game). This just allows sloppy play because anything you do to try and stop him , he some way to escape it. Thats why snot allowing morph to be activated while stuned will be the best way to balance him. That way he doesn't loose any of his core gameplay while still having a good way to stop him from farming.

  2. #2802
    That would really ruin him as a hero, though. He would die the second someone stunned him at all points in the game, even late game he isn't really that hard to kill. Heroes such as BS have a fairly easy time chasing him down and killing him, actually.

    @Manni
    I considered Morph a top pick back before they added stats to morph ability. Back then it was always rush eth blade. Can't say I approve of China trying BKB on him.
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  3. #2803
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    Not really , that way you will have to think how much strength and how much agility you want , instead of just walking with 600 hp all the time because u can morph at any point. IMO it would add a whole new element of strategy to the hero.

  4. #2804
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    Quote Originally Posted by hellgrazer View Post
    Not really , that way you will have to think how much strength and how much agility you want , instead of just walking with 600 hp all the time because u can morph at any point. IMO it would add a whole new element of strategy to the hero.
    They'd maybe need to boost his movement speed if that's the case. He's 285, which is second slowest next to Crystal Maiden's awful 280.

    For comparison, Anti-Mage runs at 320 and his blink only has a 5 second cooldown.
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  5. #2805
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    Quote Originally Posted by PizzaSHARK View Post
    They'd maybe need to boost his movement speed if that's the case. He's 285, which is second slowest next to Crystal Maiden's awful 280.

    For comparison, Anti-Mage runs at 320 and his blink only has a 5 second cooldown.
    That or maybe buff his attack range a bit. I'm all for buffing him if he turns out underpowered after that change. But the way it is not is just not the way to go. He is just as strong as any other carry but hes almost impossible to kill unless you 5 man gank him , and even then he can escape.

  6. #2806
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    Quote Originally Posted by hellgrazer View Post
    That or maybe buff his attack range a bit. I'm all for buffing him if he turns out underpowered after that change. But the way it is not is just not the way to go. He is just as strong as any other carry but hes almost impossible to kill unless you 5 man gank him , and even then he can escape.
    The only thing that bothers me about current Morphling is that he's pretty forgiving of sloppy play because of the combination of a blink and stat morphing. I've seen pros accidentally (or since they're pro, probably intentionally, knowing Morphling's abilities) overextending or being stupid-aggressive and get away with it because they're playing Morphling.

    It just seems like increasing his mana costs for morphing (and possibly other things, if needed) would be an acceptable means of allowing people to punish Morphling for making mistakes without rendering him "useless," and it'd potentially raise the skill ceiling for him a bit by making mana management a defining feature of a polished player.
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  7. #2807
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    There are many ways to bring him down just a bit to the level of the other heroes. I mean , hes not OP and its not like it's auto win if you pick him , but like you said the way he currently is , he just promotes sloppy play.

    On a side note, what I'd like to see in 6.75:

    Clockwork Goblin:
    -Players are now unable to Force Staff out of Power Cogs.

    Every other hero with similar disables has it (Enigma, Void , Disruptor)... Time for some Clockwork love

  8. #2808
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    Quote Originally Posted by hellgrazer View Post
    There are many ways to bring him down just a bit to the level of the other heroes. I mean , hes not OP and its not like it's auto win if you pick him , but like you said the way he currently is , he just promotes sloppy play.

    On a side note, what I'd like to see in 6.75:

    Clockwork Goblin:
    -Players are now unable to Force Staff out of Power Cogs.

    Every other hero with similar disables has it (Enigma, Void , Disruptor)... Time for some Clockwork love
    I'd be fine with them increasing the zap damage from the cogs and just having it zap anyone that staffs out of them. I'd rather there be a mechanic in place that encourages tactical decision-making skills rather than "no, you can't do that because we said no."

    I just have an issue with the cogs in general, though... like with Profit's trees, it can be really difficult for a melee carry to do any damage to a trapped victim if they can't blink inside or don't get locked inside. Clockwerk can bust a cog to let them in, but that takes a couple of seconds on a trap that only lasts a handful of seconds to begin with.

    Besides, I'd say Clockwerk's real issue is that he simply doesn't scale. Once the game goes past 30 minutes he starts becoming increasingly less relevant because none of his skills will deal any sort of meaningful damage, and if you just want a stun bot or whatever, there are probably better choices. Dude needs like a Tiny-style Aghanim's Scepter or something.
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  9. #2809
    Quote Originally Posted by hellgrazer View Post
    -Players are now unable to Force Staff out of Power Cogs.
    Doesn't really matter. Late-game when you can expect Force Staffs (and earlier, really) you can revert to the other good use of Cogs: Pushing enemies and splitting teams. Even without Force Staffs in play, this is usually something most players seem to overlook doing even it's sometimes better than just Hooking in and putting the Cogs up. For example, you can Hookshot a target, use the time he is stunned to run behind him, plant Cogs there and push the enemy towards your teammates and push the enemy team away. Unless enemy is facing the right direction while stunned and enemy is ready, Force Staff won't help and even then you might be able to pull off great Cogs. Or you can Hookshot into enemies who are passing a choke point and divide them.

    Look at Cogs this way: You're looking at a push that saps mana and damage that goes through BKB (except for the damage.) If your enemy has 5-6 second BKB, you can disable them for almost the full duration with Hookshot and good Cog placement, forcing them to spend time going around them or risking taking multiple pushes. Cogs are great regardless of Force Staff, you just have to try to plan ahead and use them efficiently instead of going Hookshot > Cogs > Did we win?

    What Clock actually seems to need is some buff to Battery Assault. All his other abilities are fine, but later in the game BA can be very underwhelming if you don't have the luxury of just locking down a single hero. I'd say the cooldown should be lower so that on Rank 4 you can have a good uptime, and maybe they should up the radius by 50 or 75 units and introduce a secondary zap when there's multiple units in the area. Besides that, I'd say +2 base armor, +1/+0.3 to strenght and +2/+0.2 to int and he should be just fine.
    Last edited by Hermanni; 2012-09-29 at 01:09 PM.
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  10. #2810
    BA is pretty strong early game already, though. Which is always the issue with heroes like this. He's so solid early game that if you buff him whatsoever you risk making a morphling out of him.

    Do you like how I added to the other discussion at the same time. Yeah!
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  11. #2811
    Quote Originally Posted by Lysah View Post
    BA is pretty strong early game already, though. Which is always the issue with heroes like this. He's so solid early game that if you buff him whatsoever you risk making a morphling out of him.

    Do you like how I added to the other discussion at the same time. Yeah!
    Yeah, the way I had thought it was that he'd still do the same amount of damage/stuns on a single target and then on rank 3 and 4 he could be hitting two targets at a same time if there's more than one target in the radius. It's still pretty big deal and mostly my daydreaming, but in any bigger teamfight most of BA charges are likely to hit creeps/summons/nothing. It's still in my opinion the only skill that could use some tweaking, but if I had to come up with something else I'd say Rocket scaling could be something like 80/120/160/200 and Hookshot cooldown could be lower on early ranks. HS is pretty punishing to miss and I'm still used to the HoN version which was a joke to hit compared to Rattletrap.

    ---------- Post added 2012-09-30 at 06:43 AM ----------

    Well, looks like Spirit Breaker got his buffs. http://www.playdota.com/changelogs/6.75
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  12. #2812
    Old God PizzaSHARK's Avatar
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    Jesus christ, complete 6.75 notes are crazy: http://www.playdota.com/changelogs/6.75

    Bunch of noteworthy stuff.

    - Aegis now lasts only 6 mins, so no more sitting on Aegis and just picking up the next one when Rosh respawns. Use it or lose it.

    - Alchemist got buffs to pretty much everything. I'm wondering if the new AOE on his stun will affect allies if he stuns himself.

    - Chen's free TP got moved to Test of Faith. Now he has to choose between a ~300 pure damage nuke or sending someone back to base.

    - Clockwerk got +0.3 STR/level, and Power Cogs got buffs to both duration and damage/mana drain. Staffing out of cogs will now trigger the knockback+damage+mana drain. Cogs will last 5(!) seconds at level 1.

    - Dark Seer Vacuum can no longer move invulnerable units. No more wombo combo.

    - Dazzle's Poison Touch got an interesting buff, extremely short cooldown at level 4. I guess it'll actually be worth taking that 4th point in it now.

    - Doombringer got some assorted buffs, Devour can eat any creep of any level right away now. Nets, warstomps, and thunder claps are now all available to him right away, ditto satyr regen aura or wildkin armor aura. Devour rescaled to be substantially less gpm at the start, but more gpm once it's maxed, and with a lower mana cost too.

    - Drow Ranger got some nice buffs, she'll do more damage, slow for a whopping 60% with level 4 arrows, and her Silence has a lower cooldown now.

    - Huskar will now be even more ridiculous with a scepter, 4 sec on his ulti when it's maxed. Dunno if this means anything for comp but Huskar's going to be fucking hilarious in pubs now.

    - Jakiro's Ice Path now functions kind of like a Fissure, it will stun and damage anything that touches it, rather than requiring Jakiro to actually land it. Buffs the spell and gives Jakiro a sort of niche as area denial combined with his ulti.

    - Juggernaut's Omnislash will one-shot creeps except player-controlled ones, which will make him more dangerous against solo heroes that thought the one or two creeps around could protect them.

    - Major buffs to Lina and Lion's ultimates, Lina's having a much shorter cooldown and Lion's doing a lot more damage as well as a shorter cooldown.

    - Huge nerf to Lycanthrope, wolves are much, much squishier now and cost more mana. Jungling with him is going to be slow, maybe we'll see a laned Lycan as an answer? Wolves got 50% magic resist to compensate for the HP nerf, though jungle creeps aren't going to care.

    - Significant nerfs to Morphling. Stat morph now costs 10 more mana per second, his base damage is significantly reduced, Waveform's AOE is reduced, his cast time in general is increased, and he can no longer take action until Waveform finishes (no more channeling a TP halfway through a Waveform.)

    - Naga Siren lost a TON of base damage and has a longer cast time, but strangely enough her ulti is unchanged.

    - Necrolyte's Sadist buff is much more interesting, provides HP and mana regen per second for 6 seconds after a kill. Each kill adds a separate stack, hero kills give 10x the rate of creep kills.

    - Nyx Assassin received miscellaneous buffs. Mana Drain will drain more mana and cost NA less mana. Spiked Carapace will be overall more useful, though the change lowers the skill ceiling on it.

    - Phantom Assassin's crits will now crit even harder. Not enough RNG in that hero, apparently.

    - Phantom Lancer received a crazy Agility buff... +4.2/level.

    - Shadow Fiend is a walking bomb now. Once he picks up Requiem he'll automatically pop off a half-strength Requiem (damage equal to the amount of souls lost for dying) when he dies. This free Requiem can pop off independent of the main Requiem of Souls cooldown and can activate even when Requiem of Souls is on cooldown.

    - Huuuuuge buffs to Spiritbreaker. Gains extra base damage in exchange for Empowering Haste not increasing his damage anymore. Greater Bash now ignores magic immunity and does bonus damage equal to 10%-40% of SB's movement speed (so up to about 210 damage if he's at 522 ms.) Charge of Darkness no longer places a buff on the victim. Greater Bash stun duration increased to 1.6 sec at level 4.

    - Sven's Great Cleave now cleaves more damage in a wider AOE. God's Strength increases his damage more and Warcry increases armor more.

    - TA's Psi Blades no longer spill damage when attacking illusions. No more one-shotting entire teams.

    - Major buffs to Treant Protector. BAT increased but he also received a massive bonus to base damage. Overgrowth no longer does damage but roots for 4.5 sec at max level and has a shorter cooldown. Living Armor aura replaced with a 100% uptime buff placeable on heroes OR structures that blocks up to 80 damage from heroes and provides large HP regen. Buff is automatically dispelled after 6 instances of damage are taken. Global cast range.

    - Drums, Arcane Boots, Soul Ring, and Tranquil Boots all received relatively small nerfs.

    - Black King Bar can't be sold anymore.

    - Ethereal Blade's Ether Blast now does damage based on the hero's primary stat instead of Agility, and it can be used on allies.

    - Eul's Scepter of Divinity, Yasha, and Sange are now a little cheaper, Force Staff is now a little more expensive.

    - Orb of Venom and Observer Wards are now significantly cheaper.

    - Shadowblade is now made from a Claymore and a new Shadow Amulet item, which gives +30 attack speed and can be activated for 2.5 sec of invisibility as long as you remain stationary (like TA's Meld, but without the bonus damage and armor pierce on attack.)

    - Smoke of Deceit is automatically dispelled if it's used on brewlings.


    Lot of crazy changes. I'm disappointed Tree's invis is still mostly a one-point wonder, but the skill they gave him to replace his aura with is fucking amazing and the Overgrowth buff will really be damned nice.

    Ethereal Blade change will make that item a hell of a lot more useful for damned near everyone. Still being built with Eaglehorn kinda sucks for non-AGI heroes. Cheaper Observer Wards should be interesting... it'll cost more to remove wards than to place them.
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  13. #2813
    5 second cogs at level 1? Jesus f***

    A lot of these nerfs seem unnecessary or even outright over the top. Morphling needed a change, not a complete kick in the face. He's not THAT ridiculous because it's not his damage that's the issue, it's the fact that he can farm in any lane in any game and can't be ganked. Take away his immortality and he's a fair hero, you don't have to destroy his early game completely. A mana increase on morph would have probably been enough.
    Last edited by Lysah; 2012-09-30 at 01:17 PM.
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  14. #2814
    Old God PizzaSHARK's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Lysah View Post
    5 second cogs at level 1? Jesus f***

    A lot of these nerfs seem unnecessary or even outright over the top. Morphling needed a change, not a complete kick in the face. He's not THAT ridiculous because it's not his damage that's the issue, it's the fact that he can farm in any lane in any game and can't be ganked. Take away his immortality and he's a fair hero, you don't have to destroy his early game completely. A mana increase on morph would have probably been enough.
    They completely missed the point with Naga, too. Sure, the base damage loss will reduce her farming, but she's not a hard carry to begin with. The only real issue with her is that fucking ultimate and they didn't even touch it.

    Sure, removing Vacuum's interaction with it prevents the wombo combo but it's not changing the fact that a late game Radiance Naga can split push a lane and be given a guaranteed escape with her ulti, and the fact that that ulti has a cooldown exactly as long as a TP scroll.

    Honestly, Naga's ulti is on the same level of power as a Ravage or Black Hole, but it doesn't have the cooldown you associate with ultimates that powerful.
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  15. #2815
    Unlike Ravage and Black Hole, Song is a double-edged blade and surprisingly easy to deal with with correct strategy and positioning.
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  16. #2816
    You have to coordinate your team around Naga's ult way more than the other big team fight ults in the game or you just screw yourself over. She's been banned a whole lot less recently for a reason imo. International 2 hysteria isn't indicative of imbalance

  17. #2817
    Quote Originally Posted by PizzaSHARK View Post
    Honestly, Naga's ulti is on the same level of power as a Ravage or Black Hole, but it doesn't have the cooldown you associate with ultimates that powerful.
    what?
    please tell me you are kidding

  18. #2818
    Old God PizzaSHARK's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Finear View Post
    what?
    please tell me you are kidding
    It's a massive AOE sleep that lasts for a long time on a very brief cooldown. It can be used to guarantee Naga's team gets an opener or a free escape, and it can even be used when someone has BKB to leave them stuck in a 1v5 while the rest of their team is busy sleeping.

    And weren't you guys just saying about how it's so hard to land a decent Ravage against pro-level players? So if Ravage is also hard to land, why not put it on a short cooldown, too? I mean, you can just dodge it, right?

    ---------- Post added 2012-09-30 at 10:27 AM ----------

    Quote Originally Posted by hailey View Post
    You have to coordinate your team around Naga's ult way more than the other big team fight ults in the game or you just screw yourself over. She's been banned a whole lot less recently for a reason imo. International 2 hysteria isn't indicative of imbalance
    No one's been trying a Blink Dagger on Naga, either. Wouldn't Naga be able to just pick up a Blink Dagger to land big sleeps like a Tidehunter does?
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  19. #2819
    Anti-BKB is probably the most hilariously effective way to use SoS, anyway. Normally you try to burn supports down so that they can't stop you from focusing their carries, Slithice just reverses the process and gets rid of the high priority targets first.
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  20. #2820
    Old God PizzaSHARK's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Lysah View Post
    Anti-BKB is probably the most hilariously effective way to use SoS, anyway. Normally you try to burn supports down so that they can't stop you from focusing their carries, Slithice just reverses the process and gets rid of the high priority targets first.
    Yeah. Carry pops BKB, you drop your sleep and now either the carry sticks around and gets rapetrained by the entire enemy team or immediately bails out and has wasted a BKB charge, and you can do it again pretty much any time they try to force a fight (late game.)

    I'm wondering if blink dagger would be a good buy on her. She's already pretty mobile with 320 base speed (how does a water snake move so fast on land!?) but blink would definitely give her the ability to drop a sleep on the enemy team from a very long distance away and make it virtually impossible to escape her nets.

    I just think people haven't fully explored how good her ulti is just yet since she's relatively new. I recall there are some spells that will continue doing damage to caught targets, though I can't remember which ones they were offhand.
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