1. #2861
    ^^To shorten: when there's million bucks on the line, you don't screw around, you go for tried and tested (albeit boring because they're seen so much) tactics:P

    I've been using lothar's a lot lately (since blink or windwalk on SF discussion), and it's extremely well rounded item, giving small nuke and escape skill in one slot for not too great cost. Almost all heroes can benefit from it, and it won't be really countered in public (generally low-coordinated) games.

    Regarding huge changelog, i've come to conclusion that devs maybe want to shake metagame a lot, i haven't watched lot of pro games lately, but i had a feeling it's been stagnant for a while.some of buffed heroes haven't been changed quite a while, and they were less viable because they weren't evolving with the map. Couple of small buffs can easily bring neglected hero in the spotlight. For example, back in 6.3x days, Leshrac had 14 starting str and was considered mid-low pick, his str was buffed to 16 and he became one of standard competitive picks after, simply because perception of him changed, not because of 2 more starting strength.

  2. #2862
    I'm trying to avoid talking about SF with lothar's, his situation is pretty unique =p

  3. #2863
    Titan PizzaSHARK's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Lysah View Post
    I'm trying to avoid talking about SF with lothar's, his situation is pretty unique =p
    It seems like the change to SF is really gonna make it so that buying Lothar's on him is never really a bad idea. Even if they counter it, hell, you still explode when you die so whatever. I'm interested to see how a high-level player will handle SF now, it's like you need to balance suiciding to wipe their team with realizing you're gonna have to spend a few minutes recovering lost souls when you respawn.

    Hah, imagine a Bloodstone SF. That'd be cute.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ryan Cailan Ebonheart View Post
    I also do landscaping on weekends with some mexican kid that I "hired". He's real good because he's 100% obedient to me and does everything I say while never complaining. He knows that I am the man in the relationship and is completely submissive towards me as he should be.
    Quote Originally Posted by SUH View Post
    Crissi the goddess of MMO, if i may. ./bow

  4. #2864
    Quote Originally Posted by JimPaladin View Post
    I'm glad you base your opinions off generic "pro player" tier lists.

    \

    Because Valve wants money so they don't want to ban players, just put them into a shoddily made Low Priority queue system that isn't moderated at all. It's fucking stupid.

    This game really needs region locks, and from the amount of players demanding it, it'll probably get them sooner or later. Let's hope it's sooner, in this case.
    Because I wrote the word tier? lol

    It's synonymous with rank, which is what I was doing, ranking junglers

  5. #2865
    Yes, I'd agree that competitive games can only exist in, well, competitive environment. You could look at Team Zenith in TI2. In June-July they'd do really well in small tournaments and according to themselves they won most of the big Chinese teams when practising against them, and they entered TI2 with a lot of banter and confidence. They didn't exactly do great in group stages and finished 5th, and all of them seemed to be extremely disappointed, even (in my opinion) 5th place was about the best they could hope for with their performance compared to the top 4. They may have expected to possess superior skill and strategy, but their thoughts of invincibility faded quickly when their enemies started playing to win.

    When Na´Vi were the dominant team, people would criticize Puppey for "trolling" whenever he did non-standard drafting and when he was in interviews people would think that his manner of giving straight answers to questions reflected arrogance. But again in TI2, his pre-game and post-game interviews were some of the most insightful ones (at least compared to the awfully translated Chinese ones) and prior to playing iG and LGD in Winner's Bracket he reflected that he didn't think there was any way they could win the Chinese by playing in a "normal" way. Then they did some unusual banning and beat iG with Juggernaut and LGD with Faceless Void. When the finals turned to partially be a duel between Dendis Rubick and ChuaNs Tide, Puppey grasped at Nyx as a last straw in the very final game. A lot of people thought of it as a "good idea", but a few months earlier many of the same people would probably have thought of it as "trolling."

    ---------- Post added 2012-10-05 at 12:08 AM ----------

    Quote Originally Posted by PizzaSHARK View Post
    It seems like the change to SF is really gonna make it so that buying Lothar's on him is never really a bad idea. Even if they counter it, hell, you still explode when you die so whatever. I'm interested to see how a high-level player will handle SF now, it's like you need to balance suiciding to wipe their team with realizing you're gonna have to spend a few minutes recovering lost souls when you respawn.

    Hah, imagine a Bloodstone SF. That'd be cute.
    You're overestimating SF's jihad. It's his ultimate with half the souls, so unless your enemy clump up on you when they kill you (hint: they won't) it usually won't do enough for you to feel good about dying. A well positioned ranged hero could get hit with just one single soul, 80/120/160 damage, a melee or a very unlucky hero for 2-3 souls. Not that much to feel great about having just died on SF.

    About SB on SF, the problem is that later on in the game it's a very risky item to use in initiation. Even when someone else initiates and you have BKB, trying to sneak into enemy team pretty is bold as one Sentry and once CC can easily mean your death. And even if you can BB you're still some souls short.

    I'd say that Shadowblade isn't an awful item if it can be used as something else than just "farm anywhere and escape with invis" -card, but most of the other uses are usually more or less gambling.
    Last edited by Hermanni; 2012-10-05 at 10:20 AM.



    Manni | paragon.fi | Lysah reigns supreme!

  6. #2866
    Quote Originally Posted by hailey View Post
    Naix cant handle a lot of the hard camp spawns, I think pretty much only cetaur is doable from lvl 1. You can't really stack to offset that either like with DS or axe and he doesn't kill particularly fast.
    He can take Centaurs, Golems and Satyrs pretty much straight up at level 2 without any issue. You can stack a large camp three-four times (while jungling normally) and then kill it with ease once you hit level six with a stout shield.

    Quote Originally Posted by JimPaladin View Post
    This game really needs region locks, and from the amount of players demanding it, it'll probably get them sooner or later. Let's hope it's sooner, in this case.
    I sincerely doubt this will ever happen.

  7. #2867
    Quote Originally Posted by Hermanni View Post
    I'd say that Shadowblade isn't an awful item if it can be used as something else than just "farm anywhere and escape with invis" -card, but most of the other uses are usually more or less gambling.
    Well, it got a lot worse with the recipe change, imo.

  8. #2868
    please delete this post

  9. #2869
    Quote Originally Posted by Lysah View Post
    Not the pro scene itself, the 50,000 rabid fans who just eat up everything they say and never question them at all.
    Fair enough. People do copy way too much, as well as believing everything donwe in tournaments will also work in their pubgames.

  10. #2870
    Titan PizzaSHARK's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jangri- View Post
    Fair enough. People do copy way too much, as well as believing everything donwe in tournaments will also work in their pubgames.
    See this happen all the time. Someone will get Rubick in SD or RD and try to build him like Dendi does and they pretty much feed all game because they don't realize Dendi can get away with the glass cannon build he uses (i.e., not a bit of STR or HP anywhere) because Na'Vi have the coordination and timing necessary to prevent the enemy team from sitting on Rubick.

    Did several different Doomy builds for jungling and I can definitely say it looks like it's viable now, but I was pretty reliant on stacking the pull camp to get to level 2... Doomy just can't tank monsters until he gets some more armor, not even the little camps. So warding the pull or interrupting it would probably delay him quite a lot.

    I also ended up with an extra ring of protection laying around since you need both tranquil boots and ring of basilius. But the positive is that at 25 minutes I had Radiance, Hand of Midas, Ring of Basilius, Phase Boots, Quelling Blade, and Armlet and was level 16 without ever leaving the jungle. I think in a real game it'd be time to leave the jungle after finishing Radiance (18-20 mins) and would probably start ganking around level 6 (potentially before that if I ate a troll.)

    ---------- Post added 2012-10-06 at 04:48 AM ----------

    Do visage's familiars need some tweaks? Seems like they require a lot more APM to use effectively than other summons, for less overall gain. The stun's great but they're worth a trainload of gold and their DPS is garbage.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ryan Cailan Ebonheart View Post
    I also do landscaping on weekends with some mexican kid that I "hired". He's real good because he's 100% obedient to me and does everything I say while never complaining. He knows that I am the man in the relationship and is completely submissive towards me as he should be.
    Quote Originally Posted by SUH View Post
    Crissi the goddess of MMO, if i may. ./bow

  11. #2871
    Looking for a good player to do pubs with long-term.Prefer a support as I mainly play carry/woods.Im just tired of russians/brazilians and whatever there is.

    Awesome sig made by CryptFiend

  12. #2872
    Titan PizzaSHARK's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Techno View Post
    Looking for a good player to do pubs with long-term.Prefer a support as I mainly play carry/woods.Im just tired of russians/brazilians and whatever there is.
    If you play on US servers I'm always interested in a game.
    http://steamcommunity.com/id/PizzaSHARK
    Quote Originally Posted by Ryan Cailan Ebonheart View Post
    I also do landscaping on weekends with some mexican kid that I "hired". He's real good because he's 100% obedient to me and does everything I say while never complaining. He knows that I am the man in the relationship and is completely submissive towards me as he should be.
    Quote Originally Posted by SUH View Post
    Crissi the goddess of MMO, if i may. ./bow

  13. #2873
    LOL tends to use the term burden of knowledge. Now i don't play LOL so I know only vaguely what that means. My friends who hates LOL beyond everything was saying that something like that will never ever be implemented in Dota or DOTA2.

    Now here is my problem....is the recommended item list in DOTA2 something that functions in the same way. I remember in Dota that people tended to go their own builds and experiment almost all the time at least in pubs be it garena,wc3 or newer private leagues. However in DOTA2 80% of item builds are recommended item builds and people tend to,when i ask them why they are going that specific item, be somewhat clueless why it complements their hero.

    So your thoughts?

  14. #2874
    Some of the recommended items for heroes are downright stupid, many of them assume you will only play one role if you pick a hero (support VS).

  15. #2875
    Why is it downright stupid for a support hero to have support items as recommended? Does the game really need more people trying to play VS as a carry?

  16. #2876
    VS can't carry, but it doesn't mean she can't do damage. Being the wards/mek bitch is for other heroes. Give real items on VS a try sometime, you'd be surprised how early in the game she can start globaling people before MM stun wears off.

    Basically, my point here is, the recommended items are great for average players in average games. There might be 90 different ways to play a given hero, but the main 1 is enough for most people. People will follow the recommended items because they don't really understand how the game works and see it more mathematical like LoL is.
    Last edited by Lysah; 2012-10-07 at 04:58 PM.

  17. #2877
    Quote Originally Posted by hailey View Post
    Why is it downright stupid for a support hero to have support items as recommended? Does the game really need more people trying to play VS as a carry?
    Just because you do not possess the knowledge and skill to play VS as a carry doesn't mean that someone else should be denied the chance to...

    You can play a lot of heroes very diversely, the problem is that in DOTA2 you have labels what a hero can and cannot be, which is retarded in my opinion.

  18. #2878
    She's excellent ganker, due to stun also a very good laner, and considering in pubs your teammates aren't the most reliable bunch it's usually better to focus on damage because there's high chance that your "carry" will be feeding all game, so you could as well to make yourself useful. Supports need teamwork, which is rare.

  19. #2879
    Quote Originally Posted by Daraiki View Post
    Just because you do not possess the knowledge and skill to play VS as a carry doesn't mean that someone else should be denied the chance to...

    You can play a lot of heroes very diversely, the problem is that in DOTA2 you have labels what a hero can and cannot be, which is retarded in my opinion.
    How are you denied the chance because the recommended items match the role that fits the hero most accurately.

    Do you understand the point of recommended items

    Quote Originally Posted by Lysah View Post
    VS can't carry, but it doesn't mean she can't do damage. Being the wards/mek bitch is for other heroes. Give real items on VS a try sometime, you'd be surprised how early in the game she can start globaling people before MM stun wears off.

    Basically, my point here is, the recommended items are great for average players in average games. There might be 90 different ways to play a given hero, but the main 1 is enough for most people. People will follow the recommended items because they don't really understand how the game works and see it more mathematical like LoL is.
    VS can and should ward because shes an insanely effective roamer/support/ganker without items, and doesn't need/can't use standard initiation items. The recommended items are perfectly fine for VS. You can play her any way you want but that's the most standard and so reccomended
    Last edited by hailey; 2012-10-07 at 06:23 PM.

  20. #2880
    Quote Originally Posted by PizzaSHARK View Post
    Fun stuff. Oddly enough, if you tie some of the implications together, it seems to state that players that favor playing the support role and who also ward frequently have a lower win-rate than other players, which seems counter-intuitive.
    It makes sense because when you solo queue and you don't pick a carry, you are relying on your team to carry. Especially in the lower MMR bracket this is highly unreliable. Given all the wards and camp stacking, creep pulling, ganks given to the carry, there is a high chance that they wont get farmed. Not to mention your average solo queued pub players don't know how to organize a push well so having 3-4 carries on a team = a higher likelyhood in winning because the enemy team with 2 carries 3 support / init / push wont know when to push and wont take advantage of their laning advantage.

    ---------- Post added 2012-10-07 at 06:19 PM ----------

    Quote Originally Posted by Lysah View Post
    Some of the recommended items for heroes are downright stupid, many of them assume you will only play one role if you pick a hero (support VS).
    VS is absolutely and 100% entirely a support or a roaming ganker, play her any other way and you are crushing the real potential of the hero. This is fact, not opinion.

    Edit: Now that isn't to say that you couldn't WIN with a carry venge, pub players are retarded. I've seen Dagon CM and mjolnir chen. Just because it worked for you once doesn't mean its the correct or a good build. Nor is your anecdotal evidence going to change that.
    Last edited by masterprtzl; 2012-10-07 at 06:26 PM.

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