[Megathread] DotA 2

[Daraiki]

Why is it downright stupid for a support hero to have support items as recommended? Does the game really need more people trying to play VS as a carry?

Just because you do not possess the knowledge and skill to play VS as a carry doesn't mean that someone else should be denied the chance to...

You can play a lot of heroes very diversely, the problem is that in DOTA2 you have labels what a hero can and cannot be, which is retarded in my opinion.

[cudomix]

She's excellent ganker, due to stun also a very good laner, and considering in pubs your teammates aren't the most reliable bunch it's usually better to focus on damage because there's high chance that your "carry" will be feeding all game, so you could as well to make yourself useful. Supports need teamwork, which is rare.

[hailey]

Just because you do not possess the knowledge and skill to play VS as a carry doesn't mean that someone else should be denied the chance to...

You can play a lot of heroes very diversely, the problem is that in DOTA2 you have labels what a hero can and cannot be, which is retarded in my opinion.

How are you denied the chance because the recommended items match the role that fits the hero most accurately.

Do you understand the point of recommended items

VS can't carry, but it doesn't mean she can't do damage. Being the wards/mek bitch is for other heroes. Give real items on VS a try sometime, you'd be surprised how early in the game she can start globaling people before MM stun wears off.

Basically, my point here is, the recommended items are great for average players in average games. There might be 90 different ways to play a given hero, but the main 1 is enough for most people. People will follow the recommended items because they don't really understand how the game works and see it more mathematical like LoL is.

VS can and should ward because shes an insanely effective roamer/support/ganker without items, and doesn't need/can't use standard initiation items. The recommended items are perfectly fine for VS. You can play her any way you want but that's the most standard and so reccomended

[masterprtzl]

Fun stuff. Oddly enough, if you tie some of the implications together, it seems to state that players that favor playing the support role and who also ward frequently have a lower win-rate than other players, which seems counter-intuitive.

It makes sense because when you solo queue and you don't pick a carry, you are relying on your team to carry. Especially in the lower MMR bracket this is highly unreliable. Given all the wards and camp stacking, creep pulling, ganks given to the carry, there is a high chance that they wont get farmed. Not to mention your average solo queued pub players don't know how to organize a push well so having 3-4 carries on a team = a higher likelyhood in winning because the enemy team with 2 carries 3 support / init / push wont know when to push and wont take advantage of their laning advantage.

---------- Post added 2012-10-07 at 06:19 PM ----------

Some of the recommended items for heroes are downright stupid, many of them assume you will only play one role if you pick a hero (support VS).

VS is absolutely and 100% entirely a support or a roaming ganker, play her any other way and you are crushing the real potential of the hero. This is fact, not opinion.

Edit: Now that isn't to say that you couldn't WIN with a carry venge, pub players are retarded. I've seen Dagon CM and mjolnir chen. Just because it worked for you once doesn't mean its the correct or a good build. Nor is your anecdotal evidence going to change that.

[Daraiki]

How are you denied the chance because the recommended items match the role that fits the hero most accurately.

Do you understand the point of recommended items

Giving newbies an idea what they should buy.
My question:
How will 4 newbies react seeing their 5th person go with item build that isn't in the recommended list?

[Hermanni]

VS is absolutely and 100% entirely a support or a roaming ganker, play her any other way and you are crushing the real potential of the hero. This is fact, not opinion.

It is very much an opinion, and calling it a fact doesn't make it one. VS has more than enough potential to work as a semi-carry or even a hardcarry, and has been played as such on professional level. Pigeonholing heroes into different roles can work in other games, but as long as you're not narrow-minded or just copying others there isn't a limit to what you can't do, even against skilled players.

If you understand the game and know what you're doing, "unusual" builds can be as good (or better) as the usual ones. I'm not talking about buying arbitrary items on random heroes, but actually having thought on what you're going to do and how you're going to execute it.

What many fail to understand is that none of the heroes in Dota are actually built only to support. The idea of supports isn't that you have this group of heroes that you don't ever give any farm over other heroes because they can't do anything with it. Heroes that can support are defined by their ability to have strong early-game and alright late-game with little to no xp and levels, but that alone doesn't mean heroes that can support well should always support.

[Dread Pirate Roberts]

I love how 6.75 revitalized the meta-game. No more same-20 picks/bans. Finally Drow is back in the meta, Jakiro is the ultimate babysitter, and Lycan can rot in hell

[masterprtzl]

It is very much an opinion, and calling it a fact doesn't make it one. VS has more than enough potential to work as a semi-carry or even a hardcarry, and has been played as such on professional level. Pigeonholing heroes into different roles can work in other games, but as long as you're not narrow-minded or just copying others there isn't a limit to what you can't do, even against skilled players.

If you understand the game and know what you're doing, "unusual" builds can be as good (or better) as the usual ones. I'm not talking about buying arbitrary items on random heroes, but actually having thought on what you're going to do and how you're going to execute it.

What many fail to understand is that none of the heroes in Dota are actually built only to support. The idea of supports isn't that you have this group of heroes that you don't ever give any farm over other heroes because they can't do anything with it. Heroes that can support are defined by their ability to have strong early-game and alright late-game with little to no xp and levels, but that alone doesn't mean heroes that can support well should always support.

you have a lack of understanding of the metagame. VS, at a glance, has skills suited to a carry, i.e. a damage aura and a negative armor, but with those skills shes also a perfect SUPPORT. The reason she isn't a carry is her pitiful range and no real scaling steroid skill; she doesn't need any items to be an effective part of the team. That defines the support role. She can pick up low cost high efficiency items like wards/counters/courier as well as eventually save up for basic support items like Mek or Pipe or even a push. She can do all of this with little to no farm while also being extremely effective. Its like saying morphling is a great support because if hes built strength morph he has a long stun and can initiate by waving in. You could play him that way, and probably effectively, but its a waste of a hero because with farm he would be 300000x more impactful on the game.

Fact: Supports dont need items to be effective.
Fact: Carries do need items to be effective.
Fact: MOST carries have a steroid skill that helps them scale into late game
Fact: Effective ranged carries require either long range (600+ drow/sniper), an escape (wave form for example) or high mobility or effective while tanky (razor/medusa) to be effective

Fact: VS doesn't need items to be effective.
Fact: VS Doesn't have a steroid skill, her aura and armor reduction are both buffs/debuffs that the whole team benefits from (support)
Fact: VS doesn't have an escape
Fact: VS doesn't have high mobility (295 MS)
Fact: VS ult puts her in a HIGH RISK situation and saves allies, this implies support in itself

Please explain to me why it would be effective to put VS as a carry over a support? In your pub games you may perform better as a carry because of bad players failing at carrying and you needing to, but this does not make her even a somewhat viable semi carry. If your team is stomping and you happen to have money for a manta, fine. But the same can be said of Veno, who is even more of a support imo, requiring less farm to be just as efficient. Heroes DO have roles that they are built for, falling from that role is a waste. There are some heroes that are way more flexible, like Leshrac, he can get lots of farm and carry via aoe nuke damage or he can support and be a great line up stun and push. The difference here is the team gains nothing by putting VS as a carry. Nothing.

http://www.dota2wiki.com/wiki/Vengeful_Spirit

[Orochiro]

I love how 6.75 revitalized the meta-game. No more same-20 picks/bans. Finally Drow is back in the meta, Jakiro is the ultimate babysitter, and Lycan can rot in hell

Was there a professional game where Drow was picked already?

[Hermanni]

you have a lack of understanding of the metagame.

I understand the meta game very well. Better than you, I would risk in saying. I believe you have a lack of understanding in the game itself. Or to paraphrase Dendi's words, meta-game is a term used by lazy people who prefer to copy others than think for themselves.

I have a feeling you didn't either read my post or understand it very well. What I said was that heroes that can support are defined by them not needing any items to be effective in the role. We both probably agreed on that, although you had hard time understanding that either. What I argued was that it doesn't cut both ways, and every single hero in the game that is often labeled as "support" is viable as something else than the "5" support slot.

What VS has a very good early-game, rather high damage (despite having "no steroids") with only basic items and levels, and with fast enough levels she provides a huge boost to the rest of her team and can fill the role of an initiator. I'm not saying she beats Morphling 50 minutes into a game, or can out-farm an Anti-Mage, but when used correctly with the right (mid-game oriented) strategy she can fill the role of a carry very nicely. Na´Vi, for example, have played carry VS plenty of times very successfully.

[PizzaSHARK]

-some random making a thorough ass out of himself-

VS is not ideal as a carry, but she can fill the role adequately. I wouldn't select her as the only carry for a team but she performs just fine as a semi-carry and can be a hard carry even if she's not ideal for it.

She gets a free +36% damage aura, she has an armor pierce skill with greater than 100% uptime, and one of the better stuns in the game. Her ultimate can be used as initiation, escape, and anything in between. She can fill the role of carry just fine; how many hard carries have a spammable stormbolt or an aura that boost their entire team's damage?

This is the entire point - no one's saying VS is a better carry than Anti-Mage or Morphling, just that she can be played as a carry and is effective as one. You might want to dial the attitude back next time if you want your stay here to be a happy one.

[Lysah]

I understand the meta game very well. Better than you, I would risk in saying. I believe you have a lack of understanding in the game itself. Or to paraphrase Dendi's words, meta-game is a term used by lazy people who prefer to copy others than think for themselves.

Torn between how much I agree and how much I dislike the fanboyism =p

[PizzaSHARK]

Torn between how much I agree and how much I dislike the fanboyism =p

To be fair, the pros know their shit. You said yourself your issue isn't with the pros but with their fanclubs.

[Lysah]

To be fair, the pros know their shit. You said yourself your issue isn't with the pros but with their fanclubs.

Yeah I'm just giving him a hard time.

[Hermanni]

Torn between how much I agree and how much I dislike the fanboyism =p

Not actually fanboyism this time, I'm not really a fan of Dendi even he is one reason Na´Vi are fun to follow. It was more of a matter of making a good argument to the poster above, as he seemed obsessed with his idea of "meta-game" and tournament-level play. I could have argued on the basis that I've played probably 200-250 games on Vengeful Spirit (and Andromeda) in Dota, Hon and Dota 2 combined but because he had already stated that pub trash games dont count etc etc I figured drawing examples from the pro scene would make a better argument.

Besides, it's not a bad statement, although a bit crude. People tend to forget the meta-game shifts even without new maps and become obsessed with the current one to the point they forget there were different strategies that worked in the past and there will eventually be new strategies in the future. I get the feeling that when new maps are released, not even half the change in the "meta" and drafting trends is because a hero or strategy gets buffed or nerfed to the point where everyone agrees that they're OP or UP, but because the new maps encourage players to try new things. And teams that try new things seem to often end up being successful and later on mimiced, and then people will call whatever is born in the aftermath "the new meta."

[Lysah]

I remember Tiny being picked as much as Invoker is now and Wolf and AM being considered garbage picks. Some of the popular strategies of DotA1 would probably amaze/confuse a lot of people. And not much has really changed.

[juggerneat]

I had played dota casually back in w3 days. I've been playing LoL for one year now, still at the same casual level. I tried Dota 2 beta a few weeks ago and didn't like it and the reason is the interface. It's too complex to my liking. It simply put me off so i couldn't spend much time with the game. I also didn't like base designs either.

I'm playing ARAM only in LoL, like 2 games max per day and that's it. Don't have much time for these games but considering it won't be f2p (unless they change their minds like they did with tf2) i don't see myself involving in dota 2.

[Lysah]

DotA2 will be f2p when it ever releases. Shouldn't honestly be too long now, they already updated the game to reflect the beta DotA changes and just need to add the remaining heroes.

[Hermanni]

DotA2 will be f2p when it ever releases. Shouldn't honestly be too long now, they already updated the game to reflect the beta DotA changes and just need to add the remaining heroes.

I'm pretty sure they will want to add tutorials and maybe their coaching-mode things before they launch it. Which again, might not be that far as recent data mining has proven some parts of the tutorials are already in the game files.

[Lysah]

Oh I keep forgetting about that. They also have a ton of game modes to add if they want it to truly be like DotA....I would really like to see a non-ranked league similar to the way LoL does things. It would certainly help with playing with low/nonskilled friends.

Still, as much as I complained about their update speed in the past, they have proven recently that they can push new content very quickly when they focus on it. Another few months, at worst, is my guess. Let's not forget that they can "release" the game before it's done. My thoughts are, finish all of the heroes, release the game to the mass public, integrate in other systems such as tutorials/mentoring/game modes over time.