1. #2961
    Titan PizzaSHARK's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Lysah View Post
    Especially Jakiro. The new ice path is borderline too strong.
    Seems like they increased the width of the path along with everything else. I do agree it's probably a little bit too good right now. Maybe an extra second or two on cooldown is needed.

    Quote Originally Posted by Hermanni View Post
    Could you for once at least attempt to properly articulate why Tidehunter needs to be nerfed? Other than hero is good, no weakness, op op op. My grandmother probably could tell you about Tides weaknesses in 2 seconds if I asked.

    But I agree, the old Anchor Smash was pretty hilarious. I do prefer the new one, but constantly doing pirouettes with Battle Fury was funny.
    I already said - the guy seems to have no real glaring weaknesses. He has multiple ways to be laned, he's good with or without farm, and all of his skills are effective at all phases of the game. Gush is always good, Anchor Smash is a percentage so it scales, Kraken Shell becomes increasingly more powerful as the 600 HP threshold becomes proportionately less of Tide's total HP, and Ravage is Ravage.

    Why do you just blandly accept heroes being good at everything? Windrunner has the same versatility in laning and farm dependency, but she doesn't come with enormous late-game teamfight impact out of the box like Tidehunter does, able to completely wreck teamfights simply by being present, requiring items to get to that point.

    The problem is that Tide is just too good at basically everything. He doesn't excel at any one area where other heroes might do better than he does, but he has no real glaring weaknesses, either. Tide fits into basically any lineup in almost any position, picking him is almost a no-brainer.

    Venomancer might be another good example - a hero that's good at all stages of the game and has multiple ways to be laned - but the difference is Venomancer gets splattered all over the trees without items while Tide's huge STR combined with his toolkit make him extremely difficult to kill right out of the box.
    Last edited by PizzaSHARK; 2012-10-18 at 10:20 AM.
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  2. #2962
    Quote Originally Posted by CaptUntsAhts View Post
    If you were going to play Omni as a "bruiser," I would say that you would want to get Phase boots, Vlads, Soul Ring, and Halberd. If you still had money after that I'd pick up a AC or heart. You won't ever be able to put out the damage of a carry, but its nice to have such heavy slow, still have mana capabilities from soul ring, buff your melee carries with vlads, and halberd destroys ranged carries.
    Missed this, Omni's swing is slow as shit, but out side of that he has decent damage and Degen aura is annoying as hell. Phase boots are a good start, but BoT and a SnY are where its at, SnY gives you maime and run speed that you other wise have to go manta/halberd for (2 slots- probably better options, needs testing) will agree with vlads- damage, life steal and mana are always a plus on melee mana heros. I'm not a fan of Soul ring in general, but medallion would be good choice too. All of that is what makes playing omni as a Bruiser possible.

    Massive slow with - halbred/SnY + Degen aura- degen aura also can help with early kills
    Follow Through- Phase/Bot + SnY/Manta - makes you one fast hero, combing that with degen makes it hard for non blink hero's to get away from you- w/ exceptions
    Enemy Armor Reduction - Medallion + Cuirass (from my previous post) - Cuirass gives you and your team increased speed + enemy armor reduction

    But the icing is that Omni scales well with armor and Hp. No hes not Dragon Knight or one of the others, but thats what the icing is, when you do finally get him low... Lol heal and fight continues.

  3. #2963
    Quote Originally Posted by PizzaSHARK View Post
    I already said - the guy seems to have no real glaring weaknesses. He has multiple ways to be laned, he's good with or without farm, and all of his skills are effective at all phases of the game. Gush is always good, Anchor Smash is a percentage so it scales, Kraken Shell becomes increasingly more powerful as the 600 HP threshold becomes proportionately less of Tide's total HP, and Ravage is Ravage.

    Why do you just blandly accept heroes being good at everything? Windrunner has the same versatility in laning and farm dependency, but she doesn't come with enormous late-game teamfight impact out of the box like Tidehunter does, able to completely wreck teamfights simply by being present, requiring items to get to that point.

    The problem is that Tide is just too good at basically everything. He doesn't excel at any one area where other heroes might do better than he does, but he has no real glaring weaknesses, either. Tide fits into basically any lineup in almost any position, picking him is almost a no-brainer.

    Venomancer might be another good example - a hero that's good at all stages of the game and has multiple ways to be laned - but the difference is Venomancer gets splattered all over the trees without items while Tide's huge STR combined with his toolkit make him extremely difficult to kill right out of the box.
    You're just describing every support and utility hero in the game. Yes, Tide is good. But why is he too good? He isn't amazing in late-game where getting a good Ravage in time can be very hard againt one or more BKB's. You can reach a point where you're just a walking Ravage but whenever you're not landing spectacular ones that result in full team-wipes the enemy might be able to retreat, buy back if they lost someone and push your racks while you don't have Ravage. Tide is very mana-dependant as a melee support, meaning he will have little impact on lane without mana and can't chase people away from lanes easily. You're fairly useless against pushes until you hit level 6 or whenever your mana or Ravage are down.

    Tide's always been a good hero, but I don't see any reason to why he should be nerfed. Every hero in the game has serious weaknesses and it shouldn't take more than a moment of consideration to find them.
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  4. #2964
    Titan PizzaSHARK's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Hermanni View Post
    Tide's always been a good hero, but I don't see any reason to why he should be nerfed. Every hero in the game has serious weaknesses and it shouldn't take more than a moment of consideration to find them.
    And I'm not just randomly posting this stuff without stopping to consider - that's the thing. Remember when I said Morphling was broken and needed to be nerfed... and then they did? I wasn't basing that off a single game or my shit-tier pub games, but what I was seeing consistently in high-level play (both professional and just 1st/2nd page games.)

    Tide doesn't really have serious weaknesses; he has mana issues for the first 20 minutes like almost every STR hero, but arcane boots on him and/or his teammates eliminate that problem entirely (also maybe a bracer or two and of course a wand.)

    He starts with a decent amount of armor for a STR hero and has fairly middle of the road AGI for a STR hero. He has alright starting STR but very high STR gain meaning he quickly becomes very tanky even without items, and both Kraken Shell and Anchor Smash serve to further reduce the damage he takes.

    His skills also continue to be useful at all stages of the game - Anchor Smash simply scales as expected, Kraken Shell becomes increasingly useful as Tide has more HP, and Gush will still always be useful for the -5 armor if nothing else.

    I agree that Ravage can be trickier to use when the enemy team starts loading up on BKBs, but the enemy team just knowing you even have Ravage can make them use those BKBs earlier than they'd normally want to, shaving precious seconds off the effective time of the immunity (and one or two seconds is a big damn deal if you're down to a 5 sec BKB.) Tide's still useful even between Ravages because of Anchor Smash if nothing else, though I'll agree he's not nearly as big of a threat when Ravage is down.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ryan Cailan Ebonheart View Post
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  5. #2965
    Quote Originally Posted by PizzaSHARK View Post
    And I'm not just randomly posting this stuff without stopping to consider - that's the thing. Remember when I said Morphling was broken and needed to be nerfed... and then they did? I wasn't basing that off a single game or my shit-tier pub games, but what I was seeing consistently in high-level play (both professional and just 1st/2nd page games.)
    Anyone could tell Morphling nerfs were coming, but whether he was broken or not is another thing. Your understanding of high level play has obviously not improved. I recall seeing your moronic postings on reddit about how Morphling single-handedly turned a million dollar tournament into a 'complete joke.' And yet people like you are possibly the reason he was getting buffs 5 months ago. Stop fretting about balance in a game you don't understand. More importantly, you should stop attempting to influence it because nothing good will follow.

    Tide doesn't really have serious weaknesses
    Sorry, but saying that doesn't make it true. You do the same thing every time - 5 paragraphs of explanation of how the hero and their skills work (which everyone should already know) and not an ounce of real argument as to why he is too good. Tides weakness is that his presence is nothing without Ravage - Yes you can Anchor Smash if you don't die before you get into position for it, and yes you can maybe Gush someone - but if your team relies on having a Ravage to win a teamfight, you might lose a game even after a seemingly good Ravage. Forcing earlier BKB's is a thing, but only if you don't lose players before you can Ravage and especially in lan environment it's even possible to dodge Ravage with a quick BKB. Besides that, he is melee which actually means he won't work on just any lane.
    Last edited by Hermanni; 2012-10-18 at 02:05 PM.
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  6. #2966
    Fluffy Kitten llDemonll's Avatar
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    I've been playing Windrunner a bunch recently when my team needed support. She's...very good. You really have to get used to setting up your stun but once you've got that, she works well. Nice thing is she has her built-in escape so you don't need to worry about any items to help there besides force staff (which you don't get for the escape anyhow)

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  7. #2967
    Titan PizzaSHARK's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Hermanni View Post
    Anyone could tell Morphling nerfs were coming, but whether he was broken or not is another thing. Your understanding of high level play has obviously not improved. I recall seeing your moronic postings on reddit about how Morphling single-handedly turned a million dollar tournament into a 'complete joke.' And yet people like you are possibly the reason he was getting buffs 5 months ago. Stop fretting about balance in a game you don't understand. More importantly, you should stop attempting to influence it because nothing good will follow.
    Except I do understand it because it's not a particularly complex game. Once you understand what each hero does and what they do, it's really just a matter of turning knowledge into practical use. Sure, people talk about how deep and complex the pick/ban phases are... but in practice, it really isn't. There are always a core group of heroes that will be consistently picked and/or banned, for various reasons. You see more variety in inhouse games and amateur leagues, but you're still always going to see these particular heroes with consistency because they're simply better than the other choices.

    It's not hard to understand.

    Sorry, but saying that doesn't make it true. You do the same thing every time - 5 paragraphs of explanation of how the hero and their skills work (which everyone should already know) and not an ounce of real argument as to why he is too good.
    And you say this every single time and it continues to be meaningless. So why say it?

    Tides weakness is that his presence is nothing without Ravage - Yes you can Anchor Smash if you don't die before you get into position for it, and yes you can maybe Gush someone -
    Which equals kills at most stages of the game. Tide melees for a reasonable amount, he can tank an enormous amount of damage, and Gush combined with Anchor Smash and assistance from teammates equals a significant amount of damage. Tide turns into a walking ult by the late game, but he's strong in the early game so it'd be foolish to look only at his late game.

    Hell, Gush and Anchor Smash combined are strong enough to allow Tide to play aggressively in lane, which is why he's a fairly common sight in aggressive trilane setups.

    but if your team relies on having a Ravage to win a teamfight, you might lose a game even after a seemingly good Ravage. Forcing earlier BKB's is a thing, but only if you don't lose players before you can Ravage and especially in lan environment it's even possible to dodge Ravage with a quick BKB. Besides that, he is melee which actually means he won't work on just any lane.
    Well, obviously there are lanes you don't want to send him to, but it's been proven over and over that he's just fine soloing long lane (he won't get farm but he doesn't need it, really), he's strong in an aggressive duo lane, and he's seen fairly consistently in aggressive trilanes as well. He can even use Anchor Smash to farm stacked easy camps if he can't get XP/gold anywhere else, similar to what you'll sometimes see with Panda, though just like with Panda it's something you do when you're out of options.

    ---------- Post added 2012-10-18 at 10:18 AM ----------

    Quote Originally Posted by llDemonll View Post
    I've been playing Windrunner a bunch recently when my team needed support. She's...very good. You really have to get used to setting up your stun but once you've got that, she works well. Nice thing is she has her built-in escape so you don't need to worry about any items to help there besides force staff (which you don't get for the escape anyhow)
    She's a little too team-reliant for my tastes. Past a certain point, Powershot lacks the oomph it once had and unless you built as a semi-carry, you're pretty much reliant on your team to do all the heavy lifting when you land a shackle.

    She's really fun when built as a semi-carry with things like Orchid or MKB, though. Her ulti's hilarious with MKB's microstun proc.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ryan Cailan Ebonheart View Post
    The best you people can do is throw insults and lay your perspective on what a real adult is onto me but I will continue to reject them. And you will try and try again, force me into submission but I will continue to press on.
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  8. #2968
    Quote Originally Posted by PizzaSHARK View Post
    It's not hard to understand.
    Apparently it is because you seem to have completely misunderstood. The pros don't know pick the way you do because they know something that most players don't - that something being conclusive data about hero A being better than hero B or anything else for that matter. It's been said before many times but the picking trends have little to do with hero balance, too bad you seem to forget everything you can't counter-argue in about a week. The game isn't incredibly complex, but it's complex enough for people like you to think they know their shit and make themselves look like idiots time and time again.

    And you say this every single time and it continues to be meaningless. So why say it?
    Because I can undo what you do in 5 paragraphs in 1 sentence. I'll keep doing it since it's hilarious how you seem to forget anything you might have learned in a day.

    Tide turns into a walking ult by the late game, but he's strong in the early game so it'd be foolish to look only at his late game.
    So uh. Tides utility dies down in the late-game but he has good early game to make up for it... ergo he has no weaknesses?
    Manni of Paragon. Moderator of Dota 2 subforum - The golden rule: Listen to Lysah. Seriously.

  9. #2969
    Tide is beefy support hero with 4 defensive skills(2 damage reduction, 1 slow and 1 stun), and he's fairly item independent. You can't really nerf him without changing some or most of his skill toolset, he's just too good designed hero. Ravage is easy to use, anchor screws over enemy carries, and he can easily survive after blinking into enemy team. If you want to counter him, improve on your teamplay, else you have to realize that dota isn't balanced around pubs.

  10. #2970
    Quote Originally Posted by cudomix View Post
    Tide is beefy support hero with 4 defensive skills(2 damage reduction, 1 slow and 1 stun), and he's fairly item independent. You can't really nerf him without changing some or most of his skill toolset, he's just too good designed hero. Ravage is easy to use, anchor screws over enemy carries, and he can easily survive after blinking into enemy team. If you want to counter him, improve on your teamplay, else you have to realize that dota isn't balanced around pubs.
    love this, many forget that at the core of MOBA game play is team play/team cordination. I've lost several games with a team of "great heroes" because we couldn't coordinate/play well with one another. Also have won many games with hero combinations that would make any one double take, simple because of team coordination.

  11. #2971
    Quote Originally Posted by llDemonll View Post
    I've been playing Windrunner a bunch recently when my team needed support. She's...very good. You really have to get used to setting up your stun but once you've got that, she works well. Nice thing is she has her built-in escape so you don't need to worry about any items to help there besides force staff (which you don't get for the escape anyhow)
    I still find Windrunner bad. Every time I see her try to solo the hard lane I end up forcing her out of it or killing her repeatedly. She's just a walking shackleshot, the rest of her kit is pretty pointless. The second you miss your stun you've wasted an entire pick for your team.

    My opinion, of course =p
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  12. #2972
    Tide is good but not OP in any serious play. In pubs though he is probably borderline OP as it is a fairly easy hero to play reasonably well and typical pubs don't have the coordination against his ult.

  13. #2973
    Even in better pubs tides loses his ultility right around the time things get interesting. By the time people have built up some items and the game starts getting good, hes nothing but a ravage bot with a price tag on his head. And even then... a sub-par ravage basically guarntees a loss in the team battle because he doesn't do much else. Unless you build him as some hybrid semi-carry (and he is almost useful) in which case, why didn't you pick void?

  14. #2974
    High Overlord Ultraviolet Harmonies's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by PizzaSHARK View Post
    Tide doesn't really have serious weaknesses; he has mana issues for the first 20 minutes like almost every STR hero, but arcane boots on him and/or his teammates eliminate that problem entirely (also maybe a bracer or two and of course a wand.)
    He doesn't really have serious strengths bar his ultimate during the mid-game. His toolset is good, he is difficult to lane, easy to shut down and to gank. I'd draft a ton heroes before tide in a solo offlane role. He is underwhelming solo mid. He doesn't work well in a trilane, because he needs the experience to be noticed at all. Against an uncoordinated team in a public game where everyone consistently stacks up and nobody invests in magic immunity I'd consider him one of the best heroes in the pool - too bad midskill pubs are so mundane.

    But hey, let's just list all the abilities and think that somehow that constitutes as an argument and let's act surprised when people think you aren't providing one. That works too.

    Instead of constantly claiming to have this insight in high-tier organized DotA games, why don't you just post some match ID's along with your statements? You keep talking about the professional scene - yet you have not posted a single professional game as an example.

  15. #2975
    Stood in the Fire Lightswords's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ultraviolet Harmonies View Post
    He doesn't really have serious strengths bar his ultimate during the mid-game.
    Get ulti get RO get Shiva = win.You can destroy enemy team. Tide is ok.

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  16. #2976
    Tide is a common pick in all skill levels, you guys should stop pretending he is average just to be antagonistic. Everyone here knows he is a top tier pick.
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  17. #2977
    Stood in the Fire Lightswords's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Lysah View Post
    Tide is a common pick in all skill levels, you guys should stop pretending he is average just to be antagonistic. Everyone here knows he is a top tier pick.
    There are better AoE control heroes than him (Crystal,Enigma oh yes f*cking enigma the best mofo in town) but he is still very good hero and he can easily win the game.

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  18. #2978
    Quote Originally Posted by Lightswords View Post
    There are better AoE control heroes than him (Crystal,Enigma oh yes f*cking enigma the best mofo in town) but he is still very good hero and he can easily win the game.
    CM is garbage, Enigma has half the AoE and needs to channel - easy to stop before he has a BKB. Different heroes for different teams.
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  19. #2979
    CM is not garbage. Don't you dare, by far the most fun support to play in pubs. She's not exactly an aoe control hero though.

  20. #2980

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