1. #2981
    I don't find CK is really all that much outside of his ultimate. Leoric will always be terrifying because he can commit in a way no other hero in the game can. People fight and die over aegis because it is just that game changing, and this guy gets a free one every 60 seconds. Actually, his is a super aegis, he doesn't spend as long on the ground and he applies a pretty heavy slow to anyone trying to camp his grave. Leoric's crits are also much more reliable than CK, and his stun might as well have no cooldown. Adding a projectile speed to chaos bolt was the change necessary to bring CK down to average, in my opinion. I still find Leoric one of the best heroes in the game if built properly. With items he really has no counter, your options are to simply outfarm him by a lot or end the game before he gets items. The change to shadow blade giving attack speed has actually made it surprisingly good on a hero like Leoric as well, nothing says "f*** you" like popping out of stealth in the middle of their team and two shotting someone, only to get back up after they blow three ultimates on you.

    But I digress, any hero with items is good. I compare carries to their maximum potential unless their early-mid game is something noteworthy, such as Viper, who might die down as the game goes on compared to others but has an absurdly powerful level 6-16. CK might beat Leoric at ganking. I think he certainly loses in team fight initiation.
    Last edited by Lysah; 2012-10-19 at 09:24 AM.

  2. #2982
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    Quote Originally Posted by Lysah View Post
    I don't find CK is really all that much outside of his ultimate. Leoric will always be terrifying because he can commit in a way no other hero in the game can. People fight and die over aegis because it is just that game changing, and this guy gets a free one every 60 seconds. Actually, his is a super aegis, he doesn't spend as long on the ground and he applies a pretty heavy slow to anyone trying to camp his grave. Leoric's crits are also much more reliable than CK, and his stun might as well have no cooldown. Adding a projectile speed to chaos bolt was the change necessary to bring CK down to average, in my opinion. I still find Leoric one of the best heroes in the game if built properly. With items he really has no counter, your options are to simply outfarm him by a lot or end the game before he gets items. The change to shadow blade giving attack speed has actually made it surprisingly good on a hero like Leoric as well, nothing says "f*** you" like popping out of stealth in the middle of their team and two shotting someone, only to get back up after they blow three ultimates on you.

    But I digress, any hero with items is good. I compare carries to their maximum potential unless their early-mid game is something noteworthy, such as Viper, who might die down as the game goes on compared to others but has an absurdly powerful level 6-16. CK might beat Leoric at ganking. I think he certainly loses in team fight initiation.
    Yeah. I think you're right when you're talking about a big late-game teamfight, but CK's so much better at skirmishing and small fights than Leoric because getting tagged with a 4 second stun is a guaranteed death most of the time in situations like that. He's also extremely hard to kite because of his low cooldown blink and high move speed, and his ulti gives him automatic "ward traps" with a blink (lvl 3 ulti produces enough illusions that you can almost always trap someone between them following a blink) and an enormous DPS increase.

    Just seems like CK's a better choice because he's not too much weaker at 40 minutes, but he's much stronger at 20 minutes.

    I guess Sven finally has a niche as a push-oriented semi-carry with his buffed cleave.
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    I also do landscaping on weekends with some mexican kid that I "hired". He's real good because he's 100% obedient to me and does everything I say while never complaining. He knows that I am the man in the relationship and is completely submissive towards me as he should be.
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  3. #2983
    Quote Originally Posted by PizzaSHARK View Post
    Absent any direct information from Icefrog and/or Valve, I can only assume these are the kinds of games they're pulling their data from, and Tide is overperforming in these games.
    How is Tide overperforming in those games? Like UVH pointed out on the last page, the only bracket in which Tide might "over"perform is in the low-midskill bracket. Why don't you just try to come up with some actual facts like mentioned match ID's or statistics as they're all readily available instead of basing everything on your perception or pro player worship. Instead of "this hero overperforms because I say so" or "this hero has no weaknesses because I say so and I know because I watch pro games and all that."

    I play in page 1-2 games most of the time when I solo queue and I've on-off watched dota-hon-dota2 pro circuit from 2008 onwards but I don't try to build every argument solely on my own observations and opinions.

    Also I smell a pretty strong bias in this CM hate. I don't feel like arguing the matter but I'm confident I'd outperform Lich support with CM 4 games out of 5.



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  4. #2984
    I am like 24-3 on one account with tide and maybe 6-6 on another account with tide. Difference being that the first I solo queue and second I queue with friends and play CM mode.

    Anyway people should do a mmo-champion 5v5 or something. Most of the time discussion is only relevant when you have actually played with or against the people you are debating with.

  5. #2985
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    anyone want i got dota2 invite msg me steam

  6. #2986
    Quote Originally Posted by Hermanni View Post
    Also I smell a pretty strong bias in this CM hate. I don't feel like arguing the matter but I'm confident I'd outperform Lich support with CM 4 games out of 5.
    I can personally guarantee if you face me as CM, it doesn't matter what hero I am, you will feed. She really is just that easy to kill. The only games I've seen CM do well in were because her team was already dominating. Like I said, she is strong in lane, for all of about 10 minutes. A roaming CM can be powerful but wards immediately counter it and with her absurdly slow movespeed if she walks across the map and fails to get kills she is DEFINITELY going to have a horrible game now that she's level 2 when everyone else is 7.

    My opinion is like this - if you want to end the game quickly, you pick heroes like Leshrac who can actually help a push. If you want the game to last 60 minutes pick heroes like Lich.
    Last edited by Lysah; 2012-10-19 at 09:52 PM.

  7. #2987
    I love ganking CM as TA. Good times.

  8. #2988
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    Quote Originally Posted by Lysah View Post
    I can personally guarantee if you face me as CM, it doesn't matter what hero I am, you will feed. She really is just that easy to kill. The only games I've seen CM do well in were because her team was already dominating. Like I said, she is strong in lane, for all of about 10 minutes. A roaming CM can be powerful but wards immediately counter it and with her absurdly slow movespeed if she walks across the map and fails to get kills she is DEFINITELY going to have a horrible game now that she's level 2 when everyone else is 7.

    My opinion is like this - if you want to end the game quickly, you pick heroes like Leshrac who can actually help a push. If you want the game to last 60 minutes pick heroes like Lich.
    It seems like there's no reason to pick CM anymore when Jakiro is arguably even more dangerous at level 2 than she is without her weaknesses. In a related note, I got around to playing Rubick yesterday and god he feels so much weaker than he used to be, losing 10 move speed really made a huge difference. He was already squishier than CM to begin with, but made up for it by being considerably faster. Now he's only 5 speed faster but doesn't have her slows to reduce incoming damage with. Rubick absolutely needed a nerf and I'd call him balanced for lack of a better description, but it seems like if Spell Steal was the issue (and it was), why not just nerf Spell Steal somehow instead?

    Dirge feels a hell of a lot better than he was before. I don't think the zombie buff is significant other than keeping them relevant against tanky heroes with lots of HP, but the Decay buff is pretty amazing... so much easier to tag 2+ heroes with one cast now.

    But I'm not really sure what to get on him anymore. Vanguard just seems to be useless when Armlet is so damn good now, but since arcane boots are usual core on him, I've been wondering about just getting Bloodstone on him. He's always in the middle of fights and he needs the mana and mana regen to be able to spam Decay on cooldown. Maybe disassemble boots to make a quick bloodstone and then add in a casual cloak and casual platemail for later items like pipe/shiva?

    Is scepter worth getting on him? Seems like a pretty huge investment for only 5% more damage and a little extra incoming healing. Thinking the money would be better spent on a BKB so you can always be sure you can stay on top of people during your ulti and be sure you can always pop off some Decays.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ryan Cailan Ebonheart View Post
    I also do landscaping on weekends with some mexican kid that I "hired". He's real good because he's 100% obedient to me and does everything I say while never complaining. He knows that I am the man in the relationship and is completely submissive towards me as he should be.
    Quote Originally Posted by SUH View Post
    Crissi the goddess of MMO, if i may. ./bow

  9. #2989
    I agree, Jakiro is definitely a super CM now. Ice path is far better than anything she can do. Her nova beats dual breath in speed but that's about the only advantage she has on him where he is much tankier, has a way better CC, and an ultimate that actually does something.

    Dirge is great, it's funny that decay became so good it made soul rip not worth putting points into until level like 16. I see energy boots > vanguard/hood depending on enemy heroes > shivas as pretty standard. Scepter is a solid pick for him, he definitely runs out of mana quickly in any situation and can always use the health as well. Bloodstone might not be bad but I still see scepter as better for just about any hero who can use it. It gives nearly the same survivability and buffs the ultimate as well. Bloodstone is specifically for heroes who need *massive* mana regen, Dirge just needs a big mana pool.
    Last edited by Lysah; 2012-10-20 at 07:13 AM.

  10. #2990
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    Quote Originally Posted by Lysah View Post
    I agree, Jakiro is definitely a super CM now. Ice path is far better than anything she can do. Her nova beats dual breath in speed but that's about the only advantage she has on him where he is much tankier, has a way better CC, and an ultimate that actually does something.

    Dirge is great, it's funny that decay became so good it made soul rip not worth putting points into until level like 16. I see energy boots > vanguard/hood depending on enemy heroes > shivas as pretty standard. Scepter is a solid pick for him, he definitely runs out of mana quickly in any situation and can always use the health as well. Bloodstone might not be bad but I still see scepter as better for just about any hero who can use it. It gives nearly the same survivability and buffs the ultimate as well. Bloodstone is specifically for heroes who need *massive* mana regen, Dirge just needs a big mana pool.
    I usually max Soul Rip after Tombstone, Decay is just way too damned expensive for 80% of the game if you put more than 1 point into it... 130 mana every 4 sec on Dirge's pathetic mana pool is brutal. The idea behind Bloodstone is that Dirge would make really good use of its other passives since he's in the middle of fights... he'd gain XP for things that die after he dies, and he'd be around his team so the heal would also come into play.

    I don't bother with Vanguard anymore, Armlet's way too overpowered with its recent buffs to not pick it up. Damage, health, armor, and one of the most ridiculous ability "exploits" in the game. Amazingly hard to kill someone that's toggling properly.

    Scepter just seems like a lot of cash for not a lot of gains. Maybe if the creep kill heal got more than a lousy 1% increase... I'd rather put that 4300 into something like sheepstick that will REALLY help my team out, or maybe a BKB so I can be sure I can sit in that teamfight and get those needed stacks of Decay going before they can rapetrain me into the ground with stuns.

    I actually saw an interesting build where they didn't take ulti until level 8... max tombstone and get 2 points in soul rip and then take ulti at 8, gives you a potential 250 HP heal to play with. Not sure if that's better or not, though.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ryan Cailan Ebonheart View Post
    I also do landscaping on weekends with some mexican kid that I "hired". He's real good because he's 100% obedient to me and does everything I say while never complaining. He knows that I am the man in the relationship and is completely submissive towards me as he should be.
    Quote Originally Posted by SUH View Post
    Crissi the goddess of MMO, if i may. ./bow

  11. #2991
    Quote Originally Posted by Lysah View Post
    I can personally guarantee if you face me as CM, it doesn't matter what hero I am, you will feed. She really is just that easy to kill.
    My playstyle is fairly selfless so I won't say I'd never die, but I seriously doubt I'd feed. Surviving is mostly a matter of positioning and judgement and when you've got a hang of those it's pretty easy to bait enemy into overextending to just to take an easy kill on a lowly CM. I haven't played that much CM in Dota 2, probably just 30-40 games, but I'm sure I've won most of them and in HoN I was usually getting friend requests when I was playing Glacius.



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  12. #2992
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    Quote Originally Posted by Hermanni View Post
    My playstyle is fairly selfless so I won't say I'd never die, but I seriously doubt I'd feed. Surviving is mostly a matter of positioning and judgement and when you've got a hang of those it's pretty easy to bait enemy into overextending to just to take an easy kill on a lowly CM. I haven't played that much CM in Dota 2, probably just 30-40 games, but I'm sure I've won most of them and in HoN I was usually getting friend requests when I was playing Glacius.
    I disagree with Lysah saying she's a garbage pick, but I do have to wonder why you'd choose CM over Jakiro now that Jakiro's so buff. They really need to get off their butts and make Arcane Aura useful for all phases of the game. Maybe flat mana regen bonus combined with an INT bonus for your team? Dunno.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ryan Cailan Ebonheart View Post
    I also do landscaping on weekends with some mexican kid that I "hired". He's real good because he's 100% obedient to me and does everything I say while never complaining. He knows that I am the man in the relationship and is completely submissive towards me as he should be.
    Quote Originally Posted by SUH View Post
    Crissi the goddess of MMO, if i may. ./bow

  13. #2993
    Quote Originally Posted by PizzaSHARK View Post
    I disagree with Lysah saying she's a garbage pick, but I do have to wonder why you'd choose CM over Jakiro now that Jakiro's so buff.
    because shes fun hero
    and everyone underestimate her, pick ulti at lvl6 and you can really surprise enemies
    also while i loved jakiro in dota 1 i lost all my games in dota2 im not going to pick him even after this huge buff :3
    Last edited by Finear; 2012-10-20 at 11:47 AM.

  14. #2994
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    Quote Originally Posted by Finear View Post
    because shes fun hero
    and everyone underestimate her, pick ulti at lvl6 and you can really surprise enemies
    also while i loved jakiro in dota 1 i lost all my games in dota2 im not going to pick him even after this huge buff :3
    Her ulti is really strong, but it's situational. You're gonna have a hard time positioning it and even if they don't stun you can still get gibbed pretty fast at that level. I'll probably start taking it at 8 or 9 though, maybe earlier if I skip aura entirely.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ryan Cailan Ebonheart View Post
    I also do landscaping on weekends with some mexican kid that I "hired". He's real good because he's 100% obedient to me and does everything I say while never complaining. He knows that I am the man in the relationship and is completely submissive towards me as he should be.
    Quote Originally Posted by SUH View Post
    Crissi the goddess of MMO, if i may. ./bow

  15. #2995
    aura is useless
    nova>frostbite>frostbite>frostbite>frostbite>ulti and you are fuckin monster !

  16. #2996
    Hm, has anyone ever tried using the Force Staff to get on one of the pillars and then casting Nether Swap on an enemy as Vengeful Spirit?

  17. #2997
    Last time i played her (and it was long time ago), dagger+BKB were her standard items, and couple of bracers if needed, due to horrendous attack animation she's terrible farmer, so eul is hard to get on her. You should go double stun lane and go for FB with frostbite early, but in lategame items do same thing she does (shiva=nova, guinsoo=frostbite), so outside of ulti she's a liability, as Lysah repeatedly likes to point out^^ Also, her ulti is hard to aim properly, as i recall explosions are random, with higher chance of occurring along diagonal axes based on direction she's facing (you can either decimate enemy team, or it will be useless).

  18. #2998
    Quote Originally Posted by PizzaSHARK View Post
    stuff
    Decay heals you as much as soul rip does when you're spamming it on 2-3 heroes, which is what makes the buff to decay so good. Soul rip is a spell you get to heal other people, or if they have a hero like QoP who you might need to nuke when she blinks away with 10 hp. Otherwise, with flesh golem up, You can run around doing nothing but spamming decay and kill people in 3 or 4 hits. Pretty funny hero now.

    @CM
    Pretty hard to bait people when Slardar can run up to you, stun you, then kill you in one or two auto attacks tops with amp up. Want to fix CM for me? Toss her 10-15 movespeed, 50 base health, and make her ultimate do damage over time so that you can calculate how much it will hurt enemies, instead of "random explosions that might hit the enemy 0 times in full duration." As it stands, frostbite is an imposter stun and heroes like Drow will still kill you with their orb, nova is good but not great, aura is horrible, freezing field is horrible. Want to slow someone and have great lane support? Pick Tide instead. Where CM drops off after 20 minutes and the game becomes 4v5, Tide is a hero you have to worry about no matter how hard you're winning.
    Last edited by Lysah; 2012-10-20 at 08:39 PM.

  19. #2999
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    Aura really needs a boost of some kind. Maybe +1-4 mana regen and global +2-8 INT for the team or something? It needs to be powerful enough to make it worth taking over her other skills. 4 mana regen and an extra 8 INT for your team would be pretty significant, maybe significant enough to warrant leveling it over nova.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ryan Cailan Ebonheart View Post
    I also do landscaping on weekends with some mexican kid that I "hired". He's real good because he's 100% obedient to me and does everything I say while never complaining. He knows that I am the man in the relationship and is completely submissive towards me as he should be.
    Quote Originally Posted by SUH View Post
    Crissi the goddess of MMO, if i may. ./bow

  20. #3000
    Still wouldn't see much use I don't think. Mana is not an important resource in this game. You engage a skirmish and you blow your abilities and that's it, you kill or die and from there everyone heals up and does it again. Very seldom do heroes need mana and are not buying mana/regen items for themselves. CM is already so weak skipping the damage/CC on her two nukes is definitely suicide unless they can make her aura so insanely powerful that she is worth a pick just to help the other four heroes.

    As it stands right now, the mana regen she provides early game is maybe a whole one extra spell per person on your team by level 6. Fantastic. They replaced Tree's aura and health/armor is actually a great addition to the team, so I'm not sure why CM is left so weak.

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